Cornelius: Classic or Dud?

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At Nitsuh's request, here goes.

Robin Carmody, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (twenty years ago) link

when fantasma came out i thought it was the GREATEST record i had EVER heard. but i never play it anymore, its dated, sort of, in fact it almost annoys me now, for reasons i don't really understand. maybe its one of those records that plays out its usefulness quite quickly?

also, seeing cornelius live at bowlie weekender '99 was embarrassing, it was all rocked out and shit, and if it wasn't for the cringeworthy drudgefest of mercury revs set, would have been the worst of the weekend.

weren't his early records, like, acid jazz or something?

gareth, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (twenty years ago) link

On the basis of the one album I own, Cornelius is obviously a gifted producer, but the albums seem hollow. It feels more like an advertising agent's portfolio than a finished product - "look at all the styles I can work in, check out my groovy graphic design, did I mention I'm a genius?".

He incorporates diverse elements really well - esp. the Beach Boys harmonies and oceanic my bloody valentine guitars - but it's ultimately post-modernist pastiche calculated to appeal to people who like spotting fashionable influences. Takes all the fun at of it. A perfect little self-conscious art project, but bloodless. Like Beck without the songwriting skills.

He's too talented to be a complete dud, but far too precious to be classic. Maybe he'll find his voice and blow us all away.

fritz, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (twenty years ago) link

was referring to fantasma too.

fritz, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (twenty years ago) link

I wasn't entirely serious about this one, but okay . . .

I think "Fantasma" sounded insanely good as of its release, sounds occasionally grating as of now, and will return to sounding brilliant in a few years' time. In fact, I'd venture that it was *so good* that it forever killed the whole cheeky-pop-electronic-pastiche genre --- I can't think of a single record in that vein that I've really, really enjoyed since "Fantasma." This is why it grates a bit now --- a bit like getting off a fantastic rollercoaster and knowing you don't want to do anything like that again for a few hours --- and that is why, when the I-so-sick-of-beepy-Japanese-stuff dust clear, it'll still stand tall. The first three tracks alone are worth a fortune.

Has anyone devoted any time to finding Cornelius's earlier material? The first record by Flipper's Guitar has a certain cloying charm, even if the production feels like it's going to rot your teeth . . . and the very J-pop Cornelius records just prior to "Fantasma" are interesting as well.

, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (twenty years ago) link

I wasn't entirely serious about this one, but okay . . .

I think "Fantasma" sounded insanely good as of its release, sounds occasionally grating as of now, and will return to sounding brilliant in a few years' time. In fact, I'd venture that it was *so good* that it forever killed the whole cheeky-pop-electronic-pastiche genre --- I can't think of a single record in that vein that I've really, really enjoyed since "Fantasma." This is why it grates a bit now --- a bit like getting off a fantastic rollercoaster and knowing you don't want to do anything like that again for a few hours --- and that is why, when the I-so-sick-of-beepy-Japanese-stuff dust clear, it'll still stand tall. The first three tracks alone are worth a fortune.

Has anyone devoted any time to finding Cornelius's earlier material? The first record by Flipper's Guitar has a certain cloying charm, even if the production feels like it's going to rot your teeth . . . and the very J-pop Cornelius records just prior to "Fantasma" are interesting as well..

Nitsuh, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (twenty years ago) link

Postmodern heavy metal I *really* need.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (twenty years ago) link

"[I]t's ultimately post-modernist pastiche calculated to appeal to people who like spotting fashionable influences. Takes all the fun out of it. A perfect little self-conscious art project, but bloodless."

Not to imply that you're necessarily wrong about this, or that you mean it in "the wrong way," but I must admit I've always been really, really suspicious of these kinds of "self- conscious," "soulless," "over-intellectualizing," or "taking the fun out of it" arguments. They all amount to saying "this goes too far" - -- which is a damn tough argument to make, as it implies that the music *you* listen to contains the exact right balance of self- consciousness versus un-self-consciousness, or intellectualizing versus non-intellectualizing. And then couldn't some fan of Yoruba percussion come along and level the same arguments at you? "Oh, these Beatles, so soulless and self-conscious that it's just not fun anymore!"

Further, the no-fun-anymore argument makes the huge assumption that the person making it knows more about what makes music "fun" than anyone else --- it ignores the fact, for instance, that the level of pastiche on "Fantasma" may *itself* be what makes Cornelius' music fun to his fans, or that, to listeners who prefer intellectualization to balls-out rock, saying something is "over-intellectualized" is like telling a metalhead his favorite band "rocks too much."

That said, I do completely see how the comment applies to Cornelius. I'd offer, though, that at the points where those qualities got really ridiculous --- "Magoo Opening" or "2010" --- that was sort of what was *impressive* about the record, what made it striking and what will make it stand out as worth mention ten or twenty years from today. (You can imagine the stoned obscurists: "This was released back in *99*? Dude, this is some *crazy* shit!") And further, I'd argue that most portions of the record were solid in that the hyper tone was barely a gloss, only a slight tweak in the presentation of what were, in the end, fantastic, organic, and down-to-earth pop songs. "New Music Machine?"

And don't even get me started on the criminally *over*-rated Beck.

Nitsuh, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (twenty years ago) link

well, obviously mine is a subjective take - i don't think I know anymore than anyone else the right level of intellectualizing/pastiche/irony, etc. just that, to MY tastes there's too much of it in Cornelius. I'm sure there are others who think it's perfect.

fritz, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, I didn't want to imply that you were doing that --- it's just that your terminology reminded me of how many people *would*. And unlike the many instances in which I can't even fathom people's criticisms of an artist, that particular gripe is one I can entirely sympathize with.

Nitsuh, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (twenty years ago) link

Fantasma, nice sleeve...hee haw. I agree he is a technique-miester, but watch out I think the new Lp is going to RAWK

jameslucas, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (twenty years ago) link

It's a good record, but I don't listen to it much. More interesting to me have been his remixes, particularly for Takaka Minekawa and the one he did for the Pastels. He has a way with drum programming that suits gentle pop perfectly.

Mark, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (twenty years ago) link

I am sweeting up my days more and more wiff him. He sing "God ONly KNows" gently like an arabian cooing dove. Many odd ways has he of making the music! WHAT!?!?! Computers take over and samples slide around?!?!

Mike Hanley, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (twenty years ago) link

ah, keigo is one of my all-time faves.

Fantasma blew me away, and after listening to it nonstop for about a month, i had to put it away for another month... when i pulled it out again, i loved it even more. i tracked down all of the old stuff, including flipper's guitar... of all of his releases, 69/96 is my least fave, but i love the remix version, 96/69. his beastie boys pastiche did not work very well, if you ask me. i have a soft spot for First Question Award, the first Cornelius album, because it makes me nostalgic for a time i didn't enjoy that much, and it leaves me with the slightest feeling of melancholy... i often hear that tinge of melancholy in the album as well. i think the remix work he's done is fabulous... particularly the money mark, blur, and pastels mixes.

i saw him live at Matador's "Everything is Nice" 10 year anniversary show in NYC... i ended up missing the last ferry to get back into NJ, and had to spend $30 on a cab to get to my car... it was well worth it. the show was so much fun. it wasn't the best show i've seen (that would be mouse on mars during the niun niggung tour @ Irving Plaza), but Cornelius's show was definately one of the best. from what i've read on Momus's website, his next LP is going to be excellent.

basically, i can only get into his albums when in the right mood, but i think he's definately talented. fantasma was a great example of a man in total grasp of the studio as instrument concept, and from what i understand, the new LP is almost sample-free. the man obviously loves music and sound in general, and if nothing else comes across in his music, that certainly does.

mike j, Wednesday, 27 June 2001 00:00 (twenty years ago) link

Mike J said: "Fantasma blew me away, and after listening to it nonstop for about a month, i had to put it away for another month... when i pulled it out again, i loved it even more."

I totally agree. I adore that album. It doesn't sound at all hollow to me. My favourite album of that year (1998). A big !

Kodanshi, Thursday, 28 June 2001 00:00 (twenty years ago) link

What role does the word "post-modernist" actually play in fritz's post? Which would mean EXACTLY the same w/o it: which is intelligent and intelligible w/o it. So why use it? I know Nick D can point us to some nasty ole wrangling we had abt this a time ago — but I shall put my marker down here: I hate this word very deeply, because it is the sound of the brain. Actually. Going. Dead. Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz [zt] * pf!

mark s, Thursday, 28 June 2001 00:00 (twenty years ago) link

three years pass...
What happened to Cornelius? He had some potential.

I'm bad and dirty and going to hell (nordicskilla), Monday, 27 June 2005 20:36 (sixteen years ago) link

Dunno

That One Guy (That One Guy), Monday, 27 June 2005 20:55 (sixteen years ago) link

"Point" is fully fully classic. I'd imagine he's just holing up in the studio obsessively working on something else, hopefully.

b'angelo, Monday, 27 June 2005 20:57 (sixteen years ago) link

Point was only just 2002, right? I'm sure he's working on something now. Adam, you're too demanding of these artists!

Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Monday, 27 June 2005 21:04 (sixteen years ago) link

Well I wish I could take 3 years between jobs!!

I'm bad and dirty and going to hell (nordicskilla), Monday, 27 June 2005 21:09 (sixteen years ago) link

I do not hold any musicians to any standard I do not also set for myself.

I'm bad and dirty and going to hell (nordicskilla), Monday, 27 June 2005 21:10 (sixteen years ago) link

Who are the biggest remix whores?

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 27 June 2005 21:18 (sixteen years ago) link

I love the Fantastic Plastic Machine!

THE JAMES DEAN OF THE OLD TESTAMENT (ex machina), Monday, 27 June 2005 21:27 (sixteen years ago) link

Ha, the only place I've never posted about my (mostly) staunch love of Cornelius music!

I think Cornelius' pop potential peaked in-between the release of Fantasma in 1997 and his recording of 'Lazy' in 1999. There's a whole school of thought in Japan behind borrowing the art of others while bringing in your own skills to bear (and another for outright imitation) and musically speaking, Keigo rode that one out during that whole 2 year period, not to mention that he'd been doing this since 1989 anyway. There's some excellent pieces on Cornelius and the Shibuya-Kei movement of old at Tokyo-transplanted US pop musician Marxy's website/blog http://neomarxisme.com/ that really opened up a lot of the scene for me.

Obviously, the end of that scene led to the start of a new one, and in comparison to his past, today's Cornelius does seem a little too stark and sterile, although the intricacies of his production have actually exceeded his late 90s days - quite a feat if you use headphones on some of the CM tracks and then the CM2 songs afterwards. Point has been accused by some of being a rip off of Tomoko Kanda's album, which I think is a pretty tall claim when her production for Kahimi Karie in 2000, 'I Can't Wait For Summer', not only sounds exactly like Cornelius as he was then (these plagiarism-spotters always forget the wealth of remix work in-between CM and Point), but in fact sounds like his mix of Money Mark's 'Maybe I'm Dead' (and a touch of his Sting remix too).

The essence of an artist like Cornelius is that he's constantly reinventing himself and testing techniques and his curated influences out. More often than not, it's good fun, but I hope he remembers his inner child sooner or later, because there's a crucial lack of joy in recent work (that Bloc Party remix - ugh), and he's always been too good to go full bore IDM, as he seems to be on the links I've posted below:

Wataridori 2 from the Matador is 15 comp

http://s42.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=33X1QLJBS7TSK3UTEHFDKBX8DN

And 'Coin/N.A.R.Y.', from a mystery EP which I have little idea about.

According to Marxy, the original Shibuya-kei artists have little love for their current antecedents, which is a big shame as Plus-Tech are doing a fine job of capturing some of Cornelius' old lightning-in-a-bottle style. If his next album was to turn out weak, I'd still have the previous albums, and borrowed Beatles or no, I doubt he'd ever write a song like 'Rock/96' (or '69/96' for that matter) ever again anyway.

Negativa, True Believer (Sheryl Crow in a Britney costume) (Barima), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 09:34 (sixteen years ago) link

I bought Point when it came out, after readingsome reviews. Alas, it dissapointed me. Lovely sounds but it did get boring soon. (only like 2 prototype tracks and the rest are in the same vein..)
My sister loves it though, so maybe it was worth the money after all.

Ludo (Ludo), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 11:51 (sixteen years ago) link

I only recommend Fantasma and CM to people. Even my lamer emo/mid-90s/dino-rock loving acquaintances have responded favourably to it.

Negativa, True Believer (Sheryl Crow in a Britney costume) (Barima), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 11:53 (sixteen years ago) link

Thanks for the tracks, that's some good stuff.

Orange (Orange), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 12:02 (sixteen years ago) link

Yr welcome.

Negativa, True Believer (Sheryl Crow in a Britney costume) (Barima), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 12:32 (sixteen years ago) link

I quite enjoyed Point.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 12:55 (sixteen years ago) link

Thanks for posting those tracks dude!

I always thought Point was an absolute winter album, but having pumped it from the ghettoblaster in the backyard while drinking beers in the hot hot summer sun, I realize I was completely incorrect.

I kinda think Keigo's talents would be very well utilised making a CHILDREN'S ALBUM.

nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 13:56 (sixteen years ago) link

I think I sounded too harsh re: Point. I like it, and really, there are some total winners on it, but I'm always less inclined to listen to it than to the preceding two and many of the remixes. It's still better than The First Question Award tho'.

Nicka otm - a kid's album would be the ish.

Negativa, True Believer (Sheryl Crow in a Britney costume) (Barima), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 14:56 (sixteen years ago) link

eleven months pass...
Listened to "Drop" again last night at really intense volume (in 5.1)... it was pretty digi-psychedelic.

Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 19:22 (fifteen years ago) link

Cornelius plays incredibly exciting guitar on Ryuichi Sakamoto's CHASM album - on the basis of just three tracks on which he plays, he is now among my favourite guitarists!

Max Kitaj (kitaj), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 22:24 (fifteen years ago) link

69-96 and 96-69 were it for me. I met Mr. Oyamada at Trattoria's office in Tokyo, and tried to interview him, with the help of an interpreter friend - we ended up talking about music all night. Please try his work in "Flipper's Guitar", and hear his debut, "The First Question Award", as well as the aforementioned 69-96 & 96-69 albums. "Fantasma" kicked everybody's arse when it was released - I even went back to Japan and caught the show for it @ Budokan. But, post-Trattoria, he seems to have a hard time delivering anything but remixes to Warner Japan.

So Ho La (So Ho La), Thursday, 1 June 2006 02:45 (fifteen years ago) link

He covered YMO's 'Cue', produced a bunch of tracks for Tower Records exclusives when PM was released and has the odd production credit floating around (eg. Teriyaki Boyz - 'Moon The World'). All in the last year. He needs a new sound though - there's this killer remix of a song named 'Twilight' (the artist's name's in Kanji) that has potential for a new direction (v. YMO).

Hal! Jordan! HAL! JORDAN! (Barima), Thursday, 1 June 2006 11:36 (fifteen years ago) link

four months pass...
As it turns out, 'Twilight' was by Denki Groove and SchaDaraParra.

However, the new album Sensuous will soon be upon us. Singles are on Youtube:

Breezin'

Music

'Gum' (which is possibly an excerpt) is also up, as is 'Toner', as they're both off TV ads. 'Gum' looks locked to be an album highlight. 'Beep It', apparently a more electronic or even clubbier affair, will be released on 12" with remixes by Crue-L Records, who are one of the old Shibuya-kei institutions.

Based on this evidence, it isn't as thematic as the previous 3 albums and isn't much distanced from Point, sadly. Oh, and 'Cue' is on this, which doesn't help a lot, really.

To top off, Matdor aren't releasing this.

Badrock Example (Barima), Friday, 13 October 2006 14:50 (fourteen years ago) link

It's interesting that we have the Beck thread a few days ago and this one. I think Fritz's comparison is OTM and illuminates what is good about Beck as well as tiresome about Cornelius...

Radio Free Albemuth (DocMartensBoots), Friday, 13 October 2006 15:15 (fourteen years ago) link

Dunno why you felt the need to say this twice today, but nevertheless, I can't find a single point to agree with you on this one, especially in comparison to Beck, even if I enjoy his music too.

Especially when Fritz was referring to one album (with a load of context behind it too) out of four (well, nine).

Badrock Example (Barima), Friday, 13 October 2006 15:45 (fourteen years ago) link

My first thoughts after hearing Breezin' are that

a) he's still using his sampled voice as long keyboard notes for entire songs, and
b) he's still obsessed with 3 against 2 rhythms.

I still enjoy Point quite a bit, but one thing that has started to annoy me about that album is his reliance on a) and b) above.

Zachary Scott (Zach S), Friday, 13 October 2006 15:52 (fourteen years ago) link

otm

This may never have happened if he hadn't started a family

Badrock Example (Barima), Friday, 13 October 2006 16:03 (fourteen years ago) link

I think these songs are *wonderful*!

(also, Beck has nothing on Cornelius)

I.M. From Hollywood (i_m_from_hollywood), Friday, 13 October 2006 17:28 (fourteen years ago) link

I did like Breezin', actually, although my comment probably didn't express it much. Gum also sounded really good.

Zachary Scott (Zach S), Friday, 13 October 2006 17:29 (fourteen years ago) link

5 years into it and no mention of his production on Pizzicato Five's Bossa Nova 2001. I feel it's their best work, and I'd guess this was the reason for it.

I got burned out on Fantasma too, but it really was my favorite album of 1998, and over time, I think it'll age well. It just ain't relevant right now I guess.

None of his other albums moved me from beginning to end.

PappaWheelie: Giving out breaks to the needy since September 25th, 2006 (PappaWh, Friday, 13 October 2006 17:35 (fourteen years ago) link

Just my take but that doesn't mean it's going to resonate with everyone.

Radio Free Albemuth (DocMartensBoots), Friday, 13 October 2006 17:50 (fourteen years ago) link

I've loved Sensuous; made me dig out Point, too. There hasn't been a ton of growth to his sound, but I like what he duz.

Jamesy (SuzyCreemcheese), Saturday, 14 October 2006 00:01 (fourteen years ago) link

Hey, Radio, I know I am on occasion a rude, misanthropic bastard, but I do know you didn't say anything to offend. But on sonics alone, Keigo is possibly the most gifted producer of the last 10 years. I've really felt the way he's been at the forefront of a scene, produced and played all of his output for time and cultivated so many acts has given him a closer kinship to Prince than to Beck (let alone the one between Beck and Prince themselves - I mean, the fact that both Keigo and Prince are placing greater emphasis on their usually underestimated guitar work these days is very timely).

Keigo's cloning always seemed more like the acts of someone who loved certain songs so much, it was more an act of "what if I wrote that?" only it always seemed more bastard pop driven, which is a lot of fun. 'The Quizmaster' (from Flipper's last album)= the best bits of 'Loaded' AND 'I'm Losing More Than I'll Ever Have' with more uplift. 'Last Night In Africa'= effectively mashing 2 Beastie songs ('Rock Hard'/'So Whatcha Want'), replacing the AC/DC sample with Zeppelin and sticking a rejig of 'Whole Lotta Love's' breakdown in the middle for good measure. 'New Music Machine'= even MBV could stand to be sunny on occasion. I mean, dude even made a song about his second album using many of the melodies, drumming, samples and motifs.

CM is possibly the best "pure" Cornelius production, as it's way less contextual than the preceding stuff, goes through his influences as genres rather than as specific songs as he did on occasion and also ups the production ante somewhat from Fantasma.

PappaWheelie - very good P5 record, which he did before he even put out his first album, but I think the Cornelius Rock'n'Roll Orchestral Circus version of 'Happy Sad' is the only one I've wanted to hang onto.

Badrock Example (Barima), Tuesday, 17 October 2006 08:48 (fourteen years ago) link

The new album's really disappointing though, right? Like none of the songs are very good!

And I don't really care that this new stuff sounds exactly the same as the late 90s stuff did, but I am really surprised that he hasn't changed his aesthetic at all. Ok, all right, fine, and i'm also a little disappointed.

sean gramophone (Sean M), Tuesday, 17 October 2006 09:21 (fourteen years ago) link

It really is point two point oh. Is that a bad thing? Not at all.

I.M. From Hollywood (i_m_from_hollywood), Thursday, 19 October 2006 09:03 (fourteen years ago) link

I'd maybe forgive him if what he did wasn't so severe, but what he did was essentially torturing developmentally disabled teenagers. Not only that, but laugh and joke about it in retrospect when previously brought up. As much as I think the guy is talented, and that it would be cool for him to do the music for the Olympics, he really doesn't deserve this opportunity.

ClimbingThieves, Sunday, 18 July 2021 21:42 (one week ago) link

Also knowing that this info has been circulating for years, I'm quite surprised that this hasn't really came to anything much before now.

ClimbingThieves, Sunday, 18 July 2021 21:44 (one week ago) link

I assume because he hasn’t gotten much media coverage in the Western world lately. But yeah apparently it’s all been out there since ‘94!

I did hear about this last year, but it was hard to tell exactly how bad it was since the guy translating it admitted there was a lot of ambiguity in some of his quotes and that he couldn’t tell if he was exaggerating or joking around. Like he’s always come across very thoughtful in the interviews I’ve read, it doesn’t make sense that he would just openly talk about this shit for a magazine interview. Then again this apology pretty much confirms it so uh….yeah. Heartbreaking.

frogbs, Sunday, 18 July 2021 22:34 (one week ago) link

holy shit that is vile

Apparently he's been given the boot now, sorry "stepped down"

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/tokyo-2020-organisers-want-composer-who-apologised-bullying-stay-2021-07-19/

cryptkeepers are different (Matt #2), Monday, 19 July 2021 13:27 (one week ago) link

wow. i'd seen the reports but had no idea the composer everyone was talking about was Cornelius - pretty horrible.

Roz, Monday, 19 July 2021 13:56 (one week ago) link

yeah it's really weird that a lot of stories don't even mention that he's Cornelius

He's a pretty niche interest outside of Japan tbh

cryptkeepers are different (Matt #2), Monday, 19 July 2021 14:11 (one week ago) link

yeah it's really weird that a lot of stories don't even mention that he's Cornelius

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, July 19, 2021 10:11 AM (forty-four seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

i was just reading an article about this and it was mentioned in passing like 2/3 of the way down

call all destroyer, Monday, 19 July 2021 14:15 (one week ago) link

Fuck, pretty horrible.

Ned Raggett, Monday, 19 July 2021 14:39 (one week ago) link

yeah can't imagine he's too well known in the Western world anymore, still a fairly big deal in Japan thanks to Metafive. I wonder how this is being received over there. when this first started making the rounds a year ago one thing I heard a lot was "bullying in Japan has always been out of control"

frogbs, Monday, 19 July 2021 15:16 (one week ago) link

That's true but this story is fuckin wild

maf you one two (maffew12), Monday, 19 July 2021 15:30 (one week ago) link

when reading it I assumed it had to be exaggerated, like how do you get away with all that and just casually talk about it in an interview like a fucking psychopath. is he a uniquely awful person or is this one of those "everyone knows the deal" sorta things? idk how even to parse this

frogbs, Monday, 19 July 2021 15:48 (one week ago) link

Wikipedia does say that he initially "claimed past articles contained exaggerations or mistakes that he had not corrected" (the linked article is in Japanese). Even if that's true, the fact that he wouldn't bother to correct them....

aging goth couple™ (morrisp), Monday, 19 July 2021 15:51 (one week ago) link

holy shit, i don't know what to say about all this. in some ways i sympathize with the possible overexaggerating story...and i can believe that bullying culture is fucking bonkers, all over the world. people do horrible things, just like their parents did to each other. but holy shit, feces and masturbation. that's a no no

Z_TBD (Karl Malone), Monday, 19 July 2021 15:56 (one week ago) link

Even if that's true, the fact that he wouldn't bother to correct them....

how exactly do you do this? I don't know how this works when you're not actually being accused of anything, but rather were the one just revealing all this for no reason. like it reminds me of old WWF stars like Ric Flair who talk about their sex lives in ways that imply they've committed a lot of sexual assault but also are possibly just made up or exaggerated. but going back and saying "okay, the masturbation thing isn't true" is not really a good look either. and based on the original story it's not exactly clear if he's the one doing these things or if he was merely witnessing them, and obviously just saying "it wasn't me it was someone else" is kinda shitty too. idk what to say, it's all beyond the pale horrible and the dude is fucking crazy for saying any of this in the first place.

frogbs, Monday, 19 July 2021 16:08 (one week ago) link

why are we giving him any benefit of the doubt here?

e Ric Flair who talk about their sex lives in ways that imply they've committed a lot of sexual assault but also are possibly just made up or exaggerated

why possibly? i can't even fucking imagine how toxic the world of 80s wrestling was

https://oymdkgo.blogspot.com/2021/07/inquiry-into-behavior-of-keigo-oyamada.html

i mean read how fucking specific and detailed these charming anecdotes are

Yeah. If he'd maybe shown the slightest hint of remorse 20 or so years ago, I could maybe rehabilitate him in my own mind? Just not seeing any way to separate this from him this far into his life. Its interesting his own words returned to destroy him.

afriendlypioneer, Monday, 19 July 2021 16:22 (one week ago) link

I saw the headlines on twitter and thought it would be referring to horrible but fairly "standard" bullying, but "forced one boy to eat his own faeces and masturbate in front of other students" is horrifyingly awful and way beyond anything I was anticipating. I also thought there would maybe be room for understanding in terms of, say, imagine it was a culture like a UK boarding school or I dunno, the army - where the culture itself is so rotten you find yourself forced to go along with the tide in order not to be targeted yourself, and vile behaviour is normalised - but from some of those old interviews he seemed to still find it pretty funny. Really fucking disturbing.

emil.y, Monday, 19 July 2021 17:00 (one week ago) link

Wonder if Metafive will become Metafour in response to the bad publicity?

cryptkeepers are different (Matt #2), Monday, 19 July 2021 17:07 (one week ago) link

why are we giving him any benefit of the doubt here?

obviously because I like him a lot as a musician and everything I've read about him seems so at odds with this that my mind is naturally trying to find some way to reconcile it. I mean he talks about it with such a jovial tone, almost as though he's trying to impress the interviewer, and some of the stories are from 2nd grade, so it definitely feels possible that this ain't exactly an accurate account of what actually happened. that said even if you give him a lot of wiggle room he's still a fucking psychopath for talking about it like this in the first place.

I also thought there would maybe be room for understanding in terms of, say, imagine it was a culture like a UK boarding school or I dunno, the army - where the culture itself is so rotten you find yourself forced to go along with the tide in order not to be targeted yourself, and vile behaviour is normalised - but from some of those old interviews he seemed to still find it pretty funny. Really fucking disturbing.

tbf public schools in Japan do seem to be that sort of culture, in the interview he makes it sound like he was one of many people fucking with these kids & there's the kicker at the end where he implies they'd still be friendly with each other which suggests some degree of "that's just how it is here". feels shitty trying to justify this but it's just such a weird and unexpected thing. I'm glad he's finally experiencing some sort of consequence at least

frogbs, Monday, 19 July 2021 17:14 (one week ago) link

Yeah, sorry, I actually only mentioned the culture thing at all because it did seem to be relevant to an extent, I didn't make that clear. Even with remorse it wouldn't remove culpability, but the older interviews didn't even show much remorse, if any.

emil.y, Monday, 19 July 2021 17:27 (one week ago) link

That some of this schooling was in "the countryside near Machida" (per blog post with translated interviews above) brought back to mind this mass murder of disabled people in the area
https://www.asahi.com/sp/ajw/articles/13581711

I worked in public high schools in the area for a couple of years and loved it. There are all sorts of different public schools though. Also the word "public" doesn't appear on the page. I'm wondering if he was in some sort of boarding school, fwiw?

I looked up his bio and i wonder what a Shibuya area (Setagaya) kid was doing in school way on the other end of Tokyo. Also I didn't know he was married to Takako Minekawa.

can't wait for the olympics

maf you one two (maffew12), Monday, 19 July 2021 18:30 (one week ago) link

I didn't know he was Miki Berenyi's second cousin! And also that her mum (not his) was in You Only Live Twice.

cryptkeepers are different (Matt #2), Monday, 19 July 2021 18:46 (one week ago) link

he gets around!

i don't think it is worth much if he was in boarding school. All of it just blows my mind to bits.

maf you one two (maffew12), Monday, 19 July 2021 18:50 (one week ago) link

I wonder how this is being received in Japan...is he getting a lot of backlash or are people saying "that's just how it is here" ?? like we've been through this cycle but here you're talking about a guy telling on himself in a 25 year old interview about stuff he did 5-10 years before that...idk how something like that gets received

frogbs, Monday, 19 July 2021 19:40 (one week ago) link

I saw Cornelius had been dropped from the Olympics for childhood bullying incidents but I hadn't seen what those incidents were until now; I really can't fathom that this shit didn't sink him 25 years ago.

Karl Havoc (DJP), Monday, 19 July 2021 19:44 (one week ago) link

I know everyone's understandably focussing on the forced masturbating / faeces eating but "taped a cardboard box around a student's head and poured chalk inside" jumped out as particularly malign and dangerous (assuming a certain level of chalk was in use.) sounds like it would create a sensation not too dissimilar to being waterboarded

Qamon (||||||||), Monday, 19 July 2021 19:49 (one week ago) link

that's just how it is here

My public primary school in the US was pretty much exactly like that, developmentally disabled kids had their pants pulled down, were forced to eat bird shit, had wrestling moves "practiced" on them... I witnessed all of that with fascination and also fear, because when the disabled kids weren't around, I fell squarely into the category of "target" for such activities. I've met, in our adulthood, a few people who did such things to me then (i.e. stomping on my bare feet while wearing baseball cleats) and in their minds A. we were friends back then B. everyone did it to everyone and C. school was a blast and you're remembering it wrong. So I find Cornelius' open admission about what he did surprising, but what he did totally unsurprising.

mark e. smith-moon (f. hazel), Monday, 19 July 2021 20:21 (one week ago) link

I wonder how this is being received in Japan...is he getting a lot of backlash

there was the pressure on him to step down from the olympics, i think that sure counts as a lot of backlash. it seemed like he'd been facing some minor backlash over it recently after someone dug up those interviews, before he got tapped to contribute to the olympics, which lead to the backlash really blowing up

ufo, Monday, 19 July 2021 20:22 (one week ago) link

ya I definitely remember a lot of horrific shit happening between my freshman and junior year that often just got laughed off, stuff that in retrospect was torture/sexual assault. I remember this one very big dude (who later got a massive football scholarship) trying to hump me in the shower as a "joke" and I actually kinda forgot about it until now. I see him every now and then and we have a good chat but in retrospect that was massively fucked up

frogbs, Monday, 19 July 2021 20:32 (one week ago) link

school was a blast and you're remembering it wrong.

This line of thinking is exactly why I will never, ever take part in any "reunion" for any period of schooling. In fact, I won't even step foot in the town where I went to high school (not that I ever really have any need to do so, but still).

a superficial sheeb of intelligence (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, 19 July 2021 20:47 (one week ago) link

Between the sexism rows at top level, the widespread popular opposition to holding the games, volunteers quitting en masse, athletes announcing they're not coming, and this, the Olympics have really been plagued and I can't help thinking the joke is on the (cliche) Japanese dogged insistence to go ahead with organizing them at any cost.

I'm raising this cause everyone is focusing on Cornelius personality, it's his thread of course and far more serious than embarrassing, but how does an organizing committee for such a large event not assess the reputation and honorability of the key artists involved ? And you get bitten in the ass for your absence of checks a couple of days before the score is due ?

Nabozo, Tuesday, 20 July 2021 07:51 (one week ago) link

he was only announced to be contributing to the opening ceremony a week ago, and my impression is that this stuff wasn't common knowledge before but someone had dug it up not too long ago & he was getting some backlash online in japan right as they announced he was contributing to the opening ceremony, which made it really blow up. absolutely terrible judgement by the organising committee but it's been disastrous the entire time - even just bringing cornelius in at the last minute is evidence of how badly it's been planned. originally sheena ringo was in charge of the music for it, which would have been perfect, but in late 2020 a new head of the organising committee was installed, who scrapped all the existing plans & forced the existing creative team out. that new head then resigned a few months later after making derogatory comments about a female comedian.

ufo, Tuesday, 20 July 2021 08:08 (one week ago) link

Thanks for those precisions, I had only given a cursory look to the whole affair and I was under the impression he had been working on those scores for some time.

Nabozo, Tuesday, 20 July 2021 08:38 (one week ago) link

i'm sure he'd been working on stuff for it longer than just this week, but considering the late announcement & the general chaos that's engulfed the planning for the ceremony since covid, i doubt it would have been more than a few months at most.

ufo, Tuesday, 20 July 2021 08:47 (one week ago) link

originally sheena ringo was in charge of the music for it, which would have been perfect, but in late 2020 a new head of the organising committee was installed, who scrapped all the existing plans & forced the existing creative team out

this is the worst and most grievous revelation itt imo

imago, Tuesday, 20 July 2021 13:15 (one week ago) link

It would be kind of awesome if Cornelius was only given one week to compose the olympics music

Z_TBD (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 20 July 2021 15:18 (one week ago) link

Well someone will have to now!

the year the olympics song was just one long trombone note, held as long as possible, getting a little bit more flat with every 5 seconds that pass

Z_TBD (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 20 July 2021 15:49 (one week ago) link

the Olympics are a disgusting grift even by sports standards and the IOS are criminal scumbags is how I break it down to an extent

here's just the guy to do it, Karl

https://www.discogs.com/artist/101306-Toshihiro-Koike

bryan, Tuesday, 20 July 2021 16:47 (one week ago) link

oh yeah? how is his lung capacity? i assume as a pro 'boner it's pretty good, but this performer would need to have legendary pipes

Z_TBD (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 20 July 2021 16:48 (one week ago) link

can't even imagine what the Cornelius Olympic theme would sound like, all I can picture is the Wii Shop music

frogbs, Tuesday, 20 July 2021 17:03 (one week ago) link

Now just in: turn of the director of the opening ceremony to be shown the door over an antisemitic joke in 1998 (!) and a new flurry of official apologies that sound kinda comical themselves by now: "In the short time remaining before the opening ceremony, we offer our deepest apologies for any offence and anguish this matter may have caused to the many people involved in the Olympic Games, as well as to the citizens of Japan and the world". Not sure what difference it makes and how much better everyone feels.

Nabozo, Thursday, 22 July 2021 09:26 (one week ago) link

2nd Metafive record has been canned.

"The 2nd ALBUM "META ATEM" (hereinafter referred to as 2 product numbers), which was scheduled to be released on August 11, will be discontinued.

Along with this, the release commemorative talk event scheduled at Tower Records Shibuya will also be cancelled. Please.

In addition, the regular radio program "METAFM" broadcast on InterFM897 will be discontinued due to band activities."

Maresn3st, Wednesday, 28 July 2021 09:26 (three days ago) link

Not surprised... Such a shame. But a lesson to all.

afriendlypioneer, Thursday, 29 July 2021 15:36 (two days ago) link

I suspect "discontinued" means "will be released in a few months when this dies down".

the nature of this whole thing is just weird, if he hadn't been tabbed for the Olympics I don't think this would have blown up

frogbs, Thursday, 29 July 2021 16:50 (two days ago) link


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