Ludwig van Beethoven - Symphony No 5: Classic or Dud?

but I haven't listened to this in a while.

sundar- i did post a beethoven thread on ILM as well.

This was the first thing I really learned how to play on the piano (besides "Hot Cross Buns," which is itself a timeless classic.) Unfortunately I was six and people didn't recognize it past "dun-dun-dun-dunnnnnnn".

I'm not going anywhere near this one.

OK why don't you like stencil?

heh, yeah realized this just after i posted my last message. sorry.

Also, LVB would have been a heavy metal fan - he invented it!

Nothing more triumphant in music than this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACoev7wpU80

does a goon tie hate this symphony

i hate to expose myself as a sentimental plebe but tbrr i'd love if i could just experience nothing but hearing symphony no. 5 forever and ever

yeah I'm p much thinking about spending the nights of the waning years of my life getting drunk and listening to beethoven symphonies, as I am now

ive not listened to this in a while
there's a kleiber album of 5 & 7 which is just about perfect, used to be drawn more to 7 but it has seemed more ubiquitous even than 5 recently

karajan is not always my dude but no one kicks more ass on the finale of the 5th

absolutely love the second movement of this, one of my top 10 classical pieces ever easy.

I've no emotional love for Beethoven but can appreciate how the 1st movement begins with The Greatest Hook Of All Time and follows it up with seven-minutes of endlessly brilliant development. Most classic Beethoven is so obviously classic-- the only canon work I'd rise against is the violin concerto-- but just because he's a perfect composer doesn't mean I have to love him

Listening to Beethoven to me is like watching an archery pro hit bulls-eyes all day

good description of how I feel about Mozart, but I love Beethoven in a deep way

the only canon work I'd rise against is the violin concerto

woah, steady on now fella. can you elaborate?

Do you hear the first four notes as the first and third of a major chord, or the third and fifth of a minor chord? (which is what it turns out to be)

beethoven's hard to listen to these days because he's become Classical Music. so he sounds cliched because people's definition of classical music is basically "sounds like beethoven", which beethoven generally does. the degree to which he was a complete weirdo, to which he fucked with the formula, is generally lost, because nobody listens to the formula music anymore. because nobody really knows what the formula is anymore, unless they're some sort of egghead. that's to me why interpreters like kleiber are so important, because it's so damn hard to take the fifth and make it sound like anything other than a tired old cliche.

xp 1st and 3rd of a major chord, obv. Joke's on you, listener! Also, is this the first piece that uses a french horn soli as "the voice of god" signifier?-- sudden, dramatic interruption of the horn section, God piping up to order the music around?

I'm not kicking around the violin concerto today

I always heard it as the third and fifth of a minor fwiw. It just sounds to "dark" to be part of a major chord.

It's a descending major third played in unison/octaves. Why would it sound dark if you didn't already know where it was going? Why would you assume that it was the 5th and 3rd of a minor triad without hearing the root? I hear it that way too but I'm pretty sure that this is just because that movement is so familiar that I already assume the context when it starts.

I'm not kicking around the violin concerto today

as long as you are cool with the Brahms violin concerto we are square

Brahms' 2nd greatest achievement imo

It's a descending major third played in unison/octaves. Why would it sound dark if you didn't already know where it was going? Why would you assume that it was the 5th and 3rd of a minor triad without hearing the root? I hear it that way too but I'm pretty sure that this is just because that movement is so familiar that I already assume the context when it starts.

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, March 12, 2014 11:02 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Fair point, but it's kind of hard for me to imagine how I would hear it without being familiar with it, because it's been familiar as long as I can remember

I said that Eb-major was implied and I retract that. I hear a major third with no implication of either Eb-major or c-minor. Even at the recap, Ludwig lays down a G-pedal... definitively casting the f-f-f-d figure as a G7, yes, but leaving the g-g-g-eb figure still marvellously ambiguous, neither sunny nor stormy

I hear a major third with no implication of either Eb-major or c-minor.

otm

the real question is: do you hear the downbeat as written?

http://i.imgur.com/yWSEoRY.gif

Brahms' 2nd greatest achievement imo

don't leave me hanging here man

I like using terms like "his 2nd best" or "the 2nd greatest" because it suggests both 'genius' and 'almost-ran'-- Queen is the 2nd best band of all time, i.e.-- but in this case, c'mon man, you know it's his 4th symphony

@ crut no, my ears never hear it as written, I hear these figures in triple-meter.

I wondered but his reqiuem is awful nice. Brahms 4th is so weird to me because it's SO much better than 1-3 though I wonder if in my ahem maturity I might find more to like in those, when I was a kid they were synonymous with dullsville

I love this symphony unreservedly, though it's not quite my favorite LvB sym (that would be #4 and #7). Or fuck maybe it does lock into a three way tie with them. In any case, it's the fucking transition from the 3rd movement to the finale that gets me, has made me cry before, especially in Furtwangler's 1947 live performances. My favorite stereo ones are Andre Cluytens/Berlin PO (available in a super cheap download of his whole excellent LvB cycle from Amazon) and Monteux/LSO.

The great thing about the most overplayed classical works is that it's generally only ~2 minutes of any particular piece that constitutes the overplayed part...

Here is Cluytens-- hear him, love him:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FHTZ1V2/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=398FMBVX0DNPQ&coliid=I1IZHIB0MHO536

(on spotify as well)

The great thing about the most overplayed classical works is that it's generally only ~2 minutes of any particular piece that constitutes the overplayed part...

My ish with Beethoven piano sonatas is that once you venture beyond the realm of the familiar there are some diminishing returns. Not the case with his symphonies, lots of deep cuts there, I actually think his 1st symphony is the most well-composed, even if it is indistinguishable from Mozart

The "duh duh duh DUH" of Beethoven's 5th is kind of like Freud's cigar or Kafka's insect -- it's one of those cultural reference points that you wind up hearing a million times out of context without/before ever getting the context.

we should poll Beethoven's piano sonatas eh

My ish with Beethoven piano sonatas is that once you venture beyond the realm of the familiar there are some diminishing returns.

Wha... ? (!!) ???

I'm irl sputtering. IME it's just the opposite, the unfamous sonatas are so rich and awesome and divergently wonderful. Just for starters, op. 101, op. 27 no. 1, op. 10 no. 1, op. 54, and op. 3 no. 3 are as good as anything he wrote for the instrument (op. 101 might even be my favorite of all 32 sonatas)

flamgoon why u brake hart

OK we will have another thread for this :) Jon I haven't listened to op. 101 in a long-ass time but it sound so good atm, thanks for mentioning it, I need more time (and my score in front) to think through my prejudices

Op. 101 = R Schumann in embryo

piano concerto no. 5 > symphony no. 5, who's with me?

pf concertos 4 and 5 are my least favourite major beethoven

no wayy! i just get swept along by the whole emotional generosity of that music

tend to prefer him in his least complaisant and most bloodyminded phase, the late sonatas and quartets

Cluytens also cheap on CD these days!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0040UEI8G/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=

put on a mozart piano concert today and I realized it sounded like Beethoven with all the exciting parts edited out. Not really any surprise there though, I never much liked mozart.

mozart's piano concertos are near enough the best music that there is
negatively defining one great artist with respect to another is 95% of the time a fool's errand

I hear a major third with no implication of either Eb-major or c-minor.

otm

the real question is: do you hear the downbeat as written?

― death and darkness and other night kinda shit (crüt), Wednesday, March 12, 2014 11:58 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't hear the downbeat, usually orchestras play it the following three notes like a triplet, accent on the first note. Don't clearly hear a pause for the rest before the F-F-F-D riff either.

Mozart was already dead by the time Beethoven was reaching maturity as a composer so it's an unfair comparison. Not to diminish the contribution and seismic changes that Beethoven brought about, but no one ever compares Mozart to the composers who immediately preceded him because he is so far and away above any of them (except Haydn, who is something of a special case).

I have always and will continue to find most Mozart boring. I grew up with Mozart being played all the time and I rarely enjoyed it, even though I like almost every other composer my parents played.

man

Mozart is just such wonderful music to me

whatever floats your boat I guess

speaking of whom, there's a new Argerich/Abbado piano concertos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr5ty8ovUmo&feature=youtu.be

Most of the time, I'd rather listen to Mozart's elegance and formal rigour tbh.

When that's what I want it's Bach I listen to

But Mozart and Bach did entirely different things!

sure, and I don't much care for the things Mozart did

Don't get me wrong, it's unassailable music, I just don't get much enjoyment out of it

usually orchestras play it the following three notes like a triplet, accent on the first note

Are there good recordings where this is not the case? I've been thinking about this since crut asked the question. Both Toscanini and Bernstein conducted it this way, although I don't see anything in the score to suggest this. I think I'd like to hear a performance where it is played as written.

OK, the accents seem to be in the 'right' places on this: http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=1416031

Scanning recordings on Naxos Music Library, it seems that the first note was not accented as heavily on recordings from the 20s and 30s. From the 50s on, it seems that the 'triplet' interpretation has become commonplace.

I think I strongly prefer it when played as written.

I vaguely remember Zinman/Tonhalle Zurich being played that way? It cert had a remarkably minimal fermata time

Should check Vanska, he is usually p text-treue

fwiw Mozart is the greatest composer to listen to while surfing the internet, brings some class to the proceedings, defuses the emo

man that is like a profound read on Mozart - his music sort of encourages good posture inside & out

that's what I'm talkin bout

TBF it's really striking how much Beethoven borrowed/stole from Mozart, it's just that I happen to think Beethoven improved it.

Haydn just as much so

Monteux/LSO/Decca are just so perfect in this, it's ridiculous.