Zappa - C/D

He's kinda the Ween of his time, I think. I don't hate Ween near as much as I hate Zappa, but maybe it's only because they're funnier.

I finally broke down and bought Freak Out because it's so, y'know, canonical. 'S pretty entertaining for its time; good satirical stuff which at that juncture certainly needed to be said. I think it's great to have a fellow like that around throwing tomatoes. Not sure who the contemporary equivalent would be; certainly not Ween. Maybe Kid606 or something actually. Of course, I hate Kid606.

I have Hot Rats which is a largely instrumental/jam record that is actually quite good; none of the short, knotty arrangements of the early Mothers stuff and none of the sanctimoniousness. Whatever is in this record has made me curious about checking out more, but I've never done so. "Willie the Pimp" featuring Beefheart is just a plain scream.

Anyway, for all the hubbub surrounding this guy, he strikes me as pretty harmless. No doubt the legend outweighs any real contribution - beyond the expansive diaspora of sidemen - for whatever strange reason. And it is strange that he's so well known; we're talking about a guy whose only stab at the pop world was "Valley Girl". What a bizarre record, and people bought it! It was like "Loser" only ten years earlier! Anyway, he captured a certain zeitgeist and it sold.

On the sidemen tip ... Little Feat. Stone classic. First album is one of my favorite seventies records.

I've only ever owned a couple of Zappa albums in my day, but the ones I have I'm pretty damn fond of. Witness my thread:

Frank Zappa's JOE'S GARAGE: Classic or Dud?

(Watch me close, and you'll catch me saying this about ten million different songs.)

Like Diamond, I'm not familiar with the man's entire catalog. But that is a patently ridiculous statement. Something about what little Zappa I have heard hurts my ears, but that does not translate to my hating rock and roll.

I know, I know... hyperbole and all that.

if theres one song to download its 'Magic Finger'

Like a genre unto himself, Zappa has done everything and dabbled in so many different styles of music that to condemn everything he's ever done seems like sort've a hugely sweeping statement.

I also knew these dudes in college who were way into Zappa. And, unfortunately, they did like him for his jive-ass humor. "Going to Montana" and all that stupid shit. It's like Monty Python or something; you have to be a pot-smoker and/or arrested adolescent to really dig it. So that really put me off him for many, many years.

But like so many artists, he really shouldn't be dismissed out of hand despite his many gaffes.

Hahaha...okay, fair enough.

I agree -- sometimes Zappa's clever-clever humour hampered my enjoyment of his work, but the guy was definietely someone whose vision and ability I respect. He was also a great guitarist to boot, if that sort've thing matters to you.

So, much as Diamond asked me to explain why I don't like him, I'd like someone to outline why they do.

In any event, the appeal of JOE'S GARAGE to my thirteen year old ears lay in its bizarre, cautionary narrative of censorship and governmental oppresion (being a recovering Pink Floyd fan, I had yet to tire of the overwrought notion of the 'concept album'), its shamelesly potty-mouthed and prurient sensibility (song titles included "Why Does it Hurt When I Pee?", "Crew Slut" and "Catholic Girls") and its trippy instrumentation (I'm still blown away by the Hendrixian middle-finger solo, "Toad-O Line," which hijacked the central melodic figure of Toto's cloying "Hold the Line" and turned it into something entirely more complex and dizzyingly intriguing).

I remember buying the tape (and IT'S ALIVE by the Ramones) the day I got home from camp and playing them both endlessly. Still love it to this day.

as for zappa, for me at least his heavy handed sense of humor has always been the major stumbling block, though their definitely interesting moments for me here and most of Freak Out is pretty listenable (with exceptions).

I want an explaination of why you like him that's as least as coherent as my explaination of why I don't like him. Preferably moreso.

And don't give me that "he's a good guitarist" crap. That's a defense for Joe Satriani, too.

But, as the great man himself said, this is all just about a useful as dancing about architecture.

Alex, you're the #1 contributor to this forum. I don't believe for a second that you really believe that.

I don't actually believe it, but it seemed like a timely and appropriate opportunity to whip out that by-now-well-worn cliché.

I'm not really the #1 contributor to ILM, though, am I?

Oh, I know, right? Wouldn't that just be the best/worst thing you've ever seen?

"I call this next one..." [dramatic pause] "...Chrysler Building."

[begin interpretive art-deco dance]

haha .. this is great, cuz for whatever nutty reason I actually gave a spun to Garcia, the first Jerry Garcia solo album, tonight. It's fantastic! Especially the second side. Total musique concrete weirdness. It's one of those records where, if the Wire had any balls, they'd use in a "Invisible Jukebox" with someone who would hate it if they had the crutch of context. You know, ask some priss what he thinks about the first Jerry Garcia record. "oh, it's fantastic, wonderful stuff!"

Wire hack: "Well surely that would be Himuro! Yes I too sometimes weep for the glory days of Worm Interface. Wotta great record!"

IDM d00d: "Oooh .. this is very hip-hop! I quite like it, yes! It's quite afro; very well done."

Wire hack: "It's a FUNKSTÖRUNG remix, surely"

IDM d00d: "Surely it is"

{Wire hack puts on first Jerry Garcia record}

IDM d00d: "Brilliant Craic! Luv it mate!"

Wire hack: "it's the first Jerry Garcia record"

*shotgun*

Yes, the Acid Tapes are choice...

That's how I remember the drunken conversation, anyway. There was also the how-dated-is-he question and the what-do-you-really-like-about-him demand. I had to answer these questions while, like, drunk.

I suppose the best I could come up with is that he's a composer. I love his guitar solos, I love his Mothers stuff, and I love his composed-for-rock-band stuff. I love his sense of humor. I love the fact that he did "Stairway to Heaven" note for note in concert until the guitar solo, when the horn section came in. He composed this stuff -- even the cover songs he does -- with great care. He knows where he wants the weird sounds to go and he puts them there.

I could say a whole lot more, but none of this will convince you, Kenan. That's fine. None of this convinces my downstairs neighbor, either.

*I find him kitschy.

>>> Yeah.

*I find him gimmicky.

>>>Sometimes, maybe a lot, actually. I tend to like gimmicks.

*I find that he meets almost none of my requirements for good music.

>>>Well, there ya go.

*He just shits on everything -- good taste, restraint, the world in general.

>>>Not true. I'll give you the part about good taste; I find pockets of his stuff unlistenable. But I can offer as an honest-to-god-homage-to-the-blues "Directly From My Heart To You" from Weasels Ripped My Flesh. Restraint? When FZ restrains himself, he is at his worst. The world in general? He shits on that? I think he viewed that as his fucking job.

*Where's the music?

>>>Huh, good question.

*Where's the part that supposed to touch me in any way other than on some pure intellectual, ironic level?

>>>The guitar solos??? I don't see how a guitar solo could be ironic or purely intellectual. You gotta put yer fingers right THERE on the fret when the finger with the pick is wobbling over here for the tremolo. And the feedback, man, the feedback! You must explain to me how this is "ironic" or "intellectual."

*You can combine the two, you know.

>>>I am open and willing to listen to a lot of things things that you might suggest that combine these two things (which I take to mean "music" and "intellectual").

*I mean, maybe YOU know, but Zappa didn't.

>>>No, I really don't know. And I don't know either if Zappa did. But I'll listen to his stuff over Ween any day.

Regards...(and no offense or anything, really)...

It's shocking how little I know of the man's work, given that I publish a fanzine which puns on his name.

Sofa has always been my favorite Zappa:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOMFJ1Fosh0

If you like Trouble Every Day you may also like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDE9MC3jnl0

For me the first three Mothers albums, Hot Rats and Apostrophe are all excellent, but really the only essentials. I spent a significant amount of time (and money, this was when you still had to buy music) in my late teens trying to find stuff by him I liked as much, and was always disappointed.

what's new in baltimore is also extremely beautiful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0sxuL2BORI

hold out for the guitar solo.

I think that in general with later Zappa (say, anything past You Are What You Is, and maybe even before that) you should just stick to the live stuff, as a rule of thumb. Nearly all the live albums I have are filled with a good chunk of "new" material but also have a few stunning renditions of older tunes - the way he'll take something that you may not even remember like "Outside Now" and turn it into something absolutely gorgeous is really something, and IMO the only thing Zappa really did well later on.

yeah I haven't checked a lot of this since high school but I seem to remember The Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life being pretty good

I was never nearly as interested in Zappa the guitar virtuoso as Zappa the crazy cross-genre songwriter/composer.

The amount of rampant mysogny and homophobia on his albums is probably the thing that's going to really scar his overall body of work

He was born in 1940 and he always seems to me like a 50s kinda guy... and Italian... sorry if that's a bit Italophobe

The amount of rampant mysogny and homophobia on his albums is probably the thing that's going to really scar his overall body of work - I

aren't you a huge WEEN fan?

hahahahahaha

ween is just all the shitty pothead asshole humor & not-funny genre pastiche of zappa without all the amazing composition and musical skill

"eat that question" off grand wazoo has my fave FZ guitar solo ever and i'm not really into technocratic aspects so much, which is why i'm not a bigger zappa fan now (but I did listen to him a ton when I was a kid); I don't get "soul" when I hear his playing, which is my own personal prejudice I guess

ween was nowhere near as cruel and pretty much dropped that style of humor by the time they turned 26

yeah bullshit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXV71xzDdJE

For me the first three Mothers albums, Hot Rats and Apostrophe are all excellent, but really the only essentials.

throw in the Shut Up albums and Roxy & Elsewhere and this is pretty much my take on the catalog, isolated moments like "Watermelon In Easter Hay" excepted.

yeah bullshit

http://www.youtube.com/v/bXV71xzDdJE&fs=1&hl=en

― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, April 4, 2013 7:44 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

first of all that song came out when they were 24 (I admit the early Ween is pretty rough), secondly that's more dark than cruel, unlike similar Zappa material you aren't really supposed to laugh at it

I'm a big fan of the various chamber ensembles that have performed FZ's work since his death (Ambrosius, Omnibus, Le Concert Impromptu et al). Just discovered a new one -- Inventionis Mater, an Italian guitar/clarinet duo. Some really nice arrangements here, especially of the WOIIFTM stuff.
http://www.inventionismater.com/eng/index.html

Thanks!

Yeah, that is nice. Those melodies take to those kinds of arrangements well. I sometimes wish all Zappa was arranged like the first few minutes of Uncle Meat -- before the snorks kick in.

Snorks are the worst.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhd0vqe0U21qczuau.jpg

This version of "Sofa #2" is the most sublimely beautiful of all the ones I've ever heard. I want this played at my funeral, for real. (And "Weasels Ripped My Flesh" played at my wake.)

I think that's my favorite of the tracks I sampled.

And I promise no snork references at either your wake or funeral.

No snork references?! Hell, my will is going to include $100 prize money for a "best snork" contest at the wake.

Is there extra money if I bring up the Trollkins?

WilliamC, are you familiar with Trio Cucamonga? They're new to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TAb6iYyJv4&feature=player_embedded

I'd heard the name before but never heard anything by them. That's a good Meat!

oh, and no money for Trollkins! What the hell are Trollkins, anyway?

Trollkins - the unholy marriage of the Dukes of Hazzard and Troll Dolls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozvYg2i3pS0

I stumbled across this. Maybe it's common knowledge but I never saw it before and it blew my mind...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MewcnFl_6Y

His one shining moment.

The sum total of my experience listening to Zappa:

I've hatred everything I've ever heard, which is, admittedly, not too much. But "wackiness," especially the scatological and puerile kind, is one quality in music I usually can't abide, and titles like "Don't Eat The Yellow Snow" have kept me from really exploring, with any seriousness, anything by the man. I also file him under "dudes who make 'psychedelic music' who clearly (audibly) don't take drugs," and, well, I just don't trust that.

I bought Hot Rats because I heard there was no singing, and that Beefheart was on it. I recall liking it OK, but it's been years. I am also aware of the Shut Up and Play Yer Guitar series, or whatever it's called, but have never heard it.

I love Beefheart (perhaps the single exception to my 'no wackiness' rule), and want to understand Zappa; as far as rock icons go, he's something of a final frontier for me. What's good? There's a cheap used copy of Absolutely Free at the record store here, and I understand that's one people like. I don't know any of the Mothers stuff at all. My mind is as open as it's likely to ever be.

listen to one size fits all and roxy and elsewhere

To see if you're interested in FZ the composer, try these:

The Zappa Album - Ensemble Ambrosius (FZ played on Baroque instruments)
Music by Frank Zappa - Omnibus Wind Ensemble (woodwind ensemble, obviously)
Prophetic Attitude - Le Concert Impromptu (woodwind quintet)
Ensemble Modern Plays Zappa - Ensemble Modern (smallish chamber orchestra; they worked with FZ directly before he died)
Plays the Music of Frank Zappa - Ed Palermo Big Band (...)
There's also a brass quintet called the Meridian Arts Ensemble which has played a lot of FZ, but their stuff is not very well recorded.
Jean-Luc Ponty - King Kong (1969 jazz album mostly of FZ work; arranged and conducted by FZ, and he plays guitar on the one track he didn't write iirc)

Those records give a sense of the music without having to deal with shitty comedy lyrics. After getting that amount of insulation, if you're still interested, go with these:
FZ - The Grand Wazoo and Waka/Jawaka (big band arrangements; my favorite pedal steel solo ever recorded on W/J)
You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore Volume 2 (a complete 1974 concert by his hottest band)

After that, you're either committed to the stuff or gave up on it days ago.

Grand Wazoo is an amazing freak out jazz album

I really like that stravinsky/gamelan/whatever thing the band has going on in the early 70s. Could be best around 74 when the gig doesn't mainly consist of the 60s MoI tracks.
Really don't like the self congraturily smut stuff.

Self congratulationarily smut stuff.

Also worth checking out: George Duke's Feel (Duke was the keyboardist in Zappa's band from roughly 1971-75; Zappa plays guitar on two tracks on Feel).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4uW5ujGUyk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9DqykUsqRY

I've been listening to Just Another Band from L.A. lately, I'm floored by how tight and coordinated the band is, "Billy the Mountain" has all these crazy stops and little jerks and syncopated comedy bits that require everyone to get in line for like 3 seconds. But it's barely listenable, like the kind of thing that was written in the span of two or three hours, and so much of it is Flo & Eddie making "mouth noises" ("and there were some birds!! CAW CAW CAW AIIYAIYAIYAIYAI!!!"). At least it's just stupid as opposed to stupid and disgusting, like "Magdalena" on Side B is.

What I really want is more of those sort of mutated and complex pop songs that Zappa did so well in his early days, the sort that were catchy as sin despite being so complex and full of left turns. Y'know..."Dog Breath", "Absolutely Free", "Concentration Moon", "Oh No", "Mother People", "Peaches en Regalia"...did he just stop writing these?

No.

(longer answer after I'm past current work deadlines)

We're Only in it is the natural entry point (and his best IMO)
1st disc of Uncle Meat, Hot rats and the debut Freak Out are pretty welcoming too.

^^^ agreed, although all of them contain "wackiness" to some degree. I had never heard "What's New In Baltimore" before, that and "Watermelon..." are essentially jazz fusion not far removed from, say, Jeff Beck's Blow by Blow.

I'm a fan, if not a regular listener, of his orchestral writing, much of which WilliamC recommended, which would likely satisfy someone into Kronos Quartet (or Carl Stalling's cartoon scores.)

The Ensemble Modern released a cd with Zappa songs not everyone knows about and it´s pretty good called ´Greggery Peccary and Other Persuasions´.

'Orchestral Favorites', ´Sleep Dirt´ and ´Studio Tan' all contain 'serious´ music. The Zappa Family Trust just released ´Dance Me This´ but no reviews have surfaced yet.

i like jazz from hell

Very much enjoyed Hot Rats and was surprised by the warmth of it.

My Zappa listening is mostly a thing of the past, but I've never seen Dweezil, and setlists from the current tour look deep and interesting to me. Should I go?

I imagine it'd be a fun time and I'm sure he'd appreciate it.

I've never heard a single bad word about Dweezil's show

I'd like to see his show

Pretty classic in a random mix go from Zappa's "Call Any Vegetable" to the Ohio Players album track "Rooster Poot" - which sounds EXACTLY like something off a FZ record. Don't think that skit song had ever really purked up my ears in the couple times I checked out that Ohio Players album, but this listen was notable.