Prince's most goth moment

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"It"?

donut bitch (donut), Saturday, 15 February 2003 01:08 (sixteen years ago) link

Not "The Cross"?

anyway, his most METAL moment is definitely still "Bambi."

olga, Saturday, 15 February 2003 01:17 (sixteen years ago) link

"Damn U" is pretty goth, actually, though not in a droney way, more in a muttering/alienated way.

I'd say the live '88 version of "Just My Imagination," but I only mean the first couple minutes' worth of synth-drone. I'm probably misreading "goth" though

M Matos (M Matos), Saturday, 15 February 2003 01:30 (sixteen years ago) link

I'd say "Temptation" for that whole conversation w/ God thing at the end. I mean God almost kills him! "Controversy" is worth a mention for the whole reciting the Lord's Prayer thing, giving he and Siouxsie have in common.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 15 February 2003 03:23 (sixteen years ago) link

blah. something in common.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 15 February 2003 03:24 (sixteen years ago) link

Scandalous?

James Blount (James Blount), Saturday, 15 February 2003 03:36 (sixteen years ago) link

What about "The Beautiful Ones". That's fairly new romantic.

booyah achieved, Saturday, 15 February 2003 08:29 (sixteen years ago) link

no theres this one on come that is total lords of acid style

chaki (chaki), Saturday, 15 February 2003 09:19 (sixteen years ago) link

Prince's most "GOTH" moment?

Isn't that kinda like Alien Sex Fiend's most "New Jack Swing" moment?

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 February 2003 09:25 (sixteen years ago) link

no way dude prince hung out with visage in 1982 and was totally into that shit. hes claimed to be a huge cocteau twins fan in a couple of interviews.

chaki (chaki), Saturday, 15 February 2003 09:27 (sixteen years ago) link

Well, I don't know if I'd call Visage precisely GOTH (new romantic? certainly. Goth? eh....). I don't doubt Prince being a fan of the Cocteaus for a second, but I wouldn't call the Cocteau Twins strictly Goth either.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 February 2003 09:30 (sixteen years ago) link

geeze..

chaki (chaki), Saturday, 15 February 2003 09:33 (sixteen years ago) link

geeze = you pigeonhole too much
http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Eaaron1/hsqgallery/images/00005.jpg

anyway that song on 'Come' is called 'Loose' and its p's goin early 90s goth check it out here

chaki (chaki), Saturday, 15 February 2003 09:40 (sixteen years ago) link

here i mean

chaki (chaki), Saturday, 15 February 2003 09:41 (sixteen years ago) link

You stretch the term "Goth" too much, methinks.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 February 2003 10:08 (sixteen years ago) link

go to any "goth" club in la and believe me you'll hear 'fade to grey', my friend

chaki (chaki), Saturday, 15 February 2003 10:11 (sixteen years ago) link

That's fine, but that doesn't make Visage a goth band.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 February 2003 10:17 (sixteen years ago) link

...i mean, if you consider bands like, say, Soft Cell and Classix Nouveaux "Goth" then fine, I guess, but Steve Strange and the Visage guys were more into that electro New Romantic vibe.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 February 2003 10:23 (sixteen years ago) link

http://www.merciful-release.com/graphics/mr002eye.gif

That little priapic gnome a GOTH?.......I think NOT!

Baron Von Elditch (vassifer), Saturday, 15 February 2003 11:53 (sixteen years ago) link

'electro new romantic' is still a part of the goth canon.

chaki (chaki), Saturday, 15 February 2003 12:29 (sixteen years ago) link

Mmmm......I know some folks who'd rather vehemently differ with you there, Chaki.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 February 2003 12:41 (sixteen years ago) link

whatever they are stupids. you are trying to tell me music they play in goth clubs isnt goth. ok whatever.

chaki (chaki), Saturday, 15 February 2003 12:45 (sixteen years ago) link

Just because a track happens to get played in a Goth club does not automatically make it a Goth tune.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 February 2003 12:47 (sixteen years ago) link

why not?

chaki (chaki), Saturday, 15 February 2003 12:48 (sixteen years ago) link

Because even Goths occaissionally listen to other music, you silly person.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 February 2003 12:48 (sixteen years ago) link

dude in the 80's goth was a mishmosh of a whole bunch of things. bauhaus played rockstedy for christ's sake. duran duran fits in fine with the goth canan and the pop canon. so does the cure? do you see?

chaki, Saturday, 15 February 2003 12:52 (sixteen years ago) link

Look man, if you want to walk around thinking Duran Duran and Visage are goth bands, you're perfectly entitled to.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 February 2003 12:55 (sixteen years ago) link

'The Chauffeur' is *SO* a goth standard!

chaki (chaki), Saturday, 15 February 2003 12:56 (sixteen years ago) link

btw alex im way more goth then you so dont even step to dis

chaki (chaki), Saturday, 15 February 2003 12:56 (sixteen years ago) link

A few minor keys and vaguely sombre intonations do not a "goth standard" make.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 February 2003 12:57 (sixteen years ago) link

Look, Morticia, I'd never claim to be a member of a subculture which effectively died ten years ago myself, but if I did, I'd least I'd do a little homework about it before I went around crooning about it.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 February 2003 12:59 (sixteen years ago) link

ok well then EXPLAIN to me what makes a band 'goth' in your definition wise one

chaki (chaki), Saturday, 15 February 2003 13:01 (sixteen years ago) link

If you have to ask....you'll never know, child.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 February 2003 13:02 (sixteen years ago) link

nice dodge

chaki (chaki), Saturday, 15 February 2003 13:05 (sixteen years ago) link

"Partyman" video?

maria b (maria b), Saturday, 15 February 2003 16:23 (sixteen years ago) link

See, I love the concept of "most GOTH moment" because everyone has a completely different def for goth... I'm going to have to side with Chaki on this only because, well I grew up in L.A. as well and know exactly what he's talking about. Goth is pretty much defined by your observations when growing up. Lyrics, fashion, the scene, and combos thereof.

I chose "It", just because of the music-box/spooky fantasy chord progressions and the orchestra stabs.

But I forgot about "Loose!". Yeah! Actually, that's Prince's most Wax Trax! moment if anything. " *GASP* ONETWOTHREEFAH! " :) Also, "Hot Thing" (from Sign O' The Times as well as "It") is pretty teutonic and dark.

Speaking of Wax Trax!, PIG aka Raymond Watts and friends started off as a totally brilliant Prince parody, the "Never For Fun" single.. which sounds like Clint Ruin/Foetus covering "If I Was Your Girlfriend". Still love that song.

donut bitch (donut), Saturday, 15 February 2003 19:33 (sixteen years ago) link

(Ha, so does that make "The Cross" Prince's most rockist moment? heh heh)

donut bitch (donut), Saturday, 15 February 2003 19:39 (sixteen years ago) link

Look, this isn't about pigeon-holing, it's simply a matter of using your eyes and ears and being able to identify styles. Duran Duran are no more a Goth band than Molly Hatchet are Mods or the Fixx are a skiffle band.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 February 2003 20:57 (sixteen years ago) link

Goth is wonderfully flexible word, Alex. I think that was Chaki's point.

donut bitch (donut), Saturday, 15 February 2003 21:21 (sixteen years ago) link

Obviously, Duran Duran and the Swans are like day and night... of course! But if we're going to be having a discussion about artists with varying styles having "goth" moments, then I think the word is allowed to be stretched wider and thinner.

donut bitch (donut), Saturday, 15 February 2003 21:25 (sixteen years ago) link

Look, "Goth" may have *become* a more flexible word in more recent years (especially in a world where the term "punk" is used to describe piffle like Avril Lavigne), but time was when there was a bit more specificity involved. Also, I'd get ready to duck and cover if you called Swans "Goths" to Michael Gira's face.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 15 February 2003 21:43 (sixteen years ago) link

there was a time when a bit more specificity was involved in the term 'rock n roll' also but I don't hear Chuck Berry bitching.

James Blount (James Blount), Saturday, 15 February 2003 21:55 (sixteen years ago) link

Look, "Goth" may have *become* a more flexible word in more recent years (especially in a world where the term "punk" is used to describe piffle like Avril Lavigne), but time was when there was a bit more specificity involved.

I think there's a good chunk of Orange County, CA musicians that would agree with you, and say there is still a strong codec of specificity required. I've practically been stalked by angry KUCI listeners for making fun of Rozz Williams one night (well before he took his own life). I'll tell that story later. But anyway, the point is, well you can't do much about people who use the term "goth" less specifically than you or I desire. (I don't want to invoke the "R" word in fear of enduring the wrath of Mark S's kennel of dragons.)

And this thread was worth it, thanks to you Alex, for making me realize the brilliance of the word "piffle". :)

Also, I'd get ready to duck and cover if you called Swans "Goths" to Michael Gira's face.

Well... yeah. :) And I'd eternally duck and cover if I were a certain Los Angeles promoter who allegedly refused to pay Gira and Jarboe for a show they played recently there, but that's yet another story...

donut bitch (donut), Saturday, 15 February 2003 21:59 (sixteen years ago) link

goth IS a very flexable word ESPECIALLY musically.. there is no specific ryhythm or guitar sound etc. like i said before the quintesential goth band Bauhaus played rocksteady! they had loads of styles in their catalogue.

chaki (chaki), Saturday, 15 February 2003 22:24 (sixteen years ago) link

there was a time when a bit more specificity was involved in the term 'rock n roll' also but I don't hear Chuck Berry bitching

"My Ding-a-ling" was SOOOOO goth.

donut bitch (donut), Saturday, 15 February 2003 22:38 (sixteen years ago) link

How old are you, Chaki?

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 16 February 2003 00:43 (sixteen years ago) link

14

chaki (chaki), Sunday, 16 February 2003 00:55 (sixteen years ago) link

Let me preface this by saying I'm now on the third beer of the evening.

I'm not asking Chaki how old he is in order to sound imperious and dismissive, I'm just attempting to explain why I might sound a bit more territorial about the liberal usage of the term "Goth". While I would never call myself "a Goth", I was a *SERIOUS* fan of several inarguably GOTHIC bands (I tend to follow specific bands, not "movements"). In any event, when I was coming of age in - so to speak - and becoming more musically aware in the early 80's, Gothic bands were largely relegated to --- pardon the pun -- cult status here in the States (we're talking about the 'golden age' of Gothic rock -- vintage Sisters of Mercy, the March Violets, Theatre of Hate, the Mission, the Fields of the Nephilim, Bauhaus and their many offshoots [Tones on Tail/Love & Rockets/Sinister Ducks/Dali's Car etc.], the Cult, the Cure, Siouxsie and the whole slightly silly Batcave scene ala the Specimen, Alien Sex Fiend, Sex Gang Children, etc.) While being inarguably depressive and doomy, I would never blithely toss the "post-Punks" (Joy Division/New Orer, the Pop Group, Killing Joke, Public Image Ltd.) into the admittedly wide "goth" cabal". The 4AD scene fit in a bit more snuggily with "Gothic" rock (anyone who can't hear Siouxsie's influence on the Cocteaus simply isn't paying very close attention), but to hang the same confining title on 4AD bands as Alien Sex Fiend happily dons is to do a disservice to a stable of artists of much broader ability. In any event, during the same time period, the British music scene and the American underground were incredibly fertile spawning grounds for a whole host of new sounds, statements, movements and sub-genres. To this point, I'll lend Chaki some creedence -- there was indeed some cross-polination going on, as there are some common threads between the austere histrionics of bands like Visage and Gary Numan and the conventional Goth crowd. That said -- despite some common ground -- you'd be pretty hard pressed to call, say, skinny-tie era Talk Talk a "Gothic" band. Depressive? Surely. Sombre? You bet. Goths? Never.

In the ensuing years, it's true -- genre parameters have been blurred and re-alligned (laregly due to a revisionism and nostalgia), but "Goth" (the term itself not originally coined as anything but a spiteful pejorative) still means something more specific than simply dressing in black and playing the occaisional minor key (Cutting Crew dressed in black....are they Goths? I think not.)

Duran Duran never were Goths. Ever. Not even briefly.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 16 February 2003 01:21 (sixteen years ago) link

Very well said and accurate, Alex.. but when so many of these bands you mentioned a) hate being seriously described as goth, and b) each exhibit a wild variety of styles -- regardless of how they were treated in the press -- then how can you defend being so rigid?

donut bitch (donut), Sunday, 16 February 2003 01:54 (sixteen years ago) link

I don't think I'm being rigid. I mean the Sisters absolutely **L O A T H E** being called goths, but can you THINK of a more Gothic band than they? I'm just suggesting that just because a band (a) happens to be British and (b) sings a song or two that is slighty dark and/or downbeat, that doesn't make them Goths. Sorry. I know it must seem like I'm getting hung up on labels, but there's a difference between pigeon-holing and blind miscategorization.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 16 February 2003 17:17 (sixteen years ago) link


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