Classic Or Dud: Pat Metheny

i will confess to being slightly influenced by him during my short-lived career as a failed jazz guitar prodigy. i really liked the 'i can see your house from here' disc he did with john scofield (also a wanker).

ultimately i'd really like to see what would happen if we got pat methany and thurston moore to do a Duets album ...

If you've heard Zero Tolerance For Silence, you'd fear that it would kind of suck.

I don't know. Yes, he's got some really cheesy stuff that my dentist would probably object to. Yes, he has big, funny hair. And yes, he wears that same striped shirt in every photo of him ever taken.

But he's also done a number of really interesting things, like a lot of the guitar synth stuff on Offramp and his straight ahead records with Ornette's group. Or his record with Ornette, for that matter.

Though I understand that the powerful oranges and yellows of cheese can be a bit blinding to all that.

Metheny gets beat up here b/c of the hair and the fact that his most syrupy stuff sells so well. But the best of his ECM stuff is among the label's finest and his sense of melody is peerless.

Indeed, the guy has made a handful of GREAT records -- his early-80s ECM stuff is chock full of wonderful moments, many electronic: the opening and Ornette-on-guitar-synth title tracks of Offramp, the just reissued Song X on which he duets with Ornette on guitar synth. And the weirdest, most beautific one, As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls, which sits somewhere between post-Evans jazz, New Age and a sort of bossa-nova Vangelis -- it's excellent.

Seconded that As Falls Wichita is strange, and frequently awesome.

I've never listened to much of his noise work but it always seems to be a tantrum - "Hey, I can do this shit too!" Granted the guy has serious chops, and he could probably do some interesting work in free improv, but he's held back by the context. I saw him live once on the Secret Story, and halfway through the show he sat down for some solo acoustic guitar. Everyone was like, "Ah, this'll be pretty." He lifted his hand, got ready to play, and then just SLAMMED out some random chords for about a minute or two, pissing off everybody in the theater, until he segued to something from the album. It didn't "work" but it was a good joke.

(Or at least they used Windham Hill.)

2xpost

STR is OTM, as it were, with Bright Sized Life -- Metheny's guitar tone is creamy as hell, but there's some edge there. Also, it's not all terrific but for texturally pleasing Metheny w/o much in the way of "jazz", New Chatauqua has some really purdy stuff. Same goes for Watercolors, which features a boatload of Eberhard Weber in all his fretless bass beauty...

Ha. That's the only Metheny I know, so I came into this thread thinking "Classic, duh." I've been warned off of other albums, and never really pursued him, but AFWSFWF is genius. I had no idea until recently that the rest of his stuff was crap...

You might wanna check out Offramp as well. The opening track is this very spacious padded out bossa-nova until right near the end, where Metheny explodes into this atonal guitar synth mess. It's pretty fantastic and a great lead into "Are You Going With Me" which is one of his great epics from the period...

I've just got the reissue of American Garage, which is pretty cheesy, but WONDERFUL! It's all roadtrips as a child for me, so there's that nostalgia, but also the delightful comfort of knowing the melodies as they build. The album is all varying shades of build-up and climax, in a fairly unabashed sense, and there's a lot of joy to be found in such craft, for me.

CLASSIC.

I am totally a fan right now! this guy is a freak! I only own Zero Tolerance cuz I'm a SY fan, but ok, right, I see thee error etc etc

I currently have "Question and Answer", "Bright Sized Life", "Trio 99-00", and the expanded "Song X" in my Amazon.com Wish List right now...

he is totally the real deal. i will make amend for any Metheny hate I ever spouted. very smart guy, very great player. organizes good bands and gets the job done.. I'm suddenly a fan! i love when that happens

Despite myself I put on (Still Life) Talking when I got off the graveyard shift the other day.

I have a bunch of his records that I'm hanging onto in hopes that one day I'll learn to appreciate him. Liked "Song X" right away though.

The actual Pat Metheny Group is full of cheese, but whenever he gets into a combo situation with his peers (or elders) he reminds me how good he is. Search Bright Size Life, all his trio records ala Dave Holland/Roy Haynes and Billy Higgins/Charlie Haden(?), and Gary Burton's 'Like Minds' with Chick Corea, Dave Holland, and Roy Haynes that is my personal favorite Metheny appearance.

-- Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:27 PM (4 years ago)
otm. He is OK on the Abbey Lincoln record he plays on with these kinds of guys.

Revive!

Forget Metheny's "noise" stuff. I was listening to Travels the other day -- and again, what a great period that was for him, where the group exists in this lazy, floating, electro-nova plane. It opens with "Are You Going With Me?" where Mays does some wonderful textural stuff, before Metheny comes in on his guitar synth and absolutely goes BERSERK to orgiastic, Coltrane-esque proportions for, like, five heart-stopping minutes.

I had on Travels when my Dad called the other day. The BERSERK portion came on and my Dad goes "What the heck are you listening to?"

"One of those Metheny records you gave me."

"THAT'S not my Metheny!"

oh dad.

God Wichita falls is good

"American Garage" is a great album. More melodic than most "fusion", which is great!

folk song = dud

fucking MADNESS WTF

Anyone who lived in Florida during the xmas season no doubt has a nostalgia for Last Train Home

I'm so glad Metheny was last talked about only a few months ago. I'm jamming out to the studio version of "Last Train Home" right now, and I'm imagining some soft Ibizan beats underneath it. Has anyone ever done a solid remix of Metheny?

The last paragraph shows a lot of humility, though.

Listening to Offramp right now. I never had the patience for this album when it came out, but it sounds crazily good now.

There's a lot of interesting information there, but Mays sure didn't suffer from a lack of self-regard.

Man, savetherobot just hepped me to this article and it is just amazing.

Thanks for posting that! A great read. I bought of a lot of Pat's music through Discogs over the last two years and I'm amazed at the consistently high quality of all of them. Planning to do the same with Lyle Mays' solo work.

This was a release I was not familiar with: Gary Thomas – Till We Have Faces with Pat on guitar.

Was it ever reported or revealed what that heckler was heckling?

pat's funny guitar guy faces.

"Get a haircut!!"

"...or at least style it or somethin, jeez!"

Going back through some Metheny records and I definitely don't vibe with all of it, but there is so much great stuff. Generally the smaller the group, the better. His solo guitar record from this year is lovely.

Trio 99>00 (w/Bill Stewart & Grenadier) is sounding amazing. The Scofield record (I Can See Your House From Here) is a classic. Rejoicing (Charlie Haden/Billy Higgins) is really nice, good joke to open with "Lonely Woman" on a record with two Ornette Coleman alums and multiple Ornette tunes, but it's not THAT Lonely Woman, it's the Horace Silver tune.

Love it when he switches to acoustic on ballads

love the “lonely woman” on rejoicing. The bside is weird!

Whoa, it really is, out comes the guitar synth!

'Question and Answer' is another Metheny trio date to check out with Dave Holland and Roy Haynes. The title track I would put in my list of favorite tunes by PM.

Trio 99>00 (w/Bill Stewart & Grenadier) is sounding amazing.

Agreed. I remember reading that was recorded in one day after a long tour where none of that material was played. There is no guitar synthesizer on the whole record. Great (and hard to play) arrangement of "A Lot of Living To Do".

The Scofield record (I Can See Your House From Here) is a classic.

I got this one recently. If you like this one, you'll probably like "The Sound of the Summer Running" by Marc Johnson that has both Pat and Bill Frisell. Tasteful, restrained duo playing. In that same category I'd put "Beyond the Missouri Sky". The most recent one is also very nice.

There's another showcase one that's pretty good, Scofield's "Grace Under Pressure," with Frisell, Charlie Haden and Joey Baron.

I listened to a bit of Question & Answer yesterday and while the playing is great and Roy Haynes is beguiling on it, the early '90s sound was driving me a little crazy, like the tone of the flat ride cymbal and the bass (not to get all Steve Hoffman about it). I put on Like Minds (the Gary Burton record that also has Metheny, Haynes, and Holland).

Also thinking about how perfect Bill Stewart sounds on those trio records (99>00 and the live one). Like he's clearly listening to everything and reactive, but also has such a big bag of slick shit that he's worked out on his own, and everything is perfectly placed and clear. It's just very different from later period Haynes & Higgins, which is a much rawer thing with the weight of history behind it. No slight to either thing, Stewart is unique & brilliant, just different.

The first I heard Stewart was on those Maceo Parker soul jazz records. so good.

Damn the version of 'Question & Answer' on Trio Live is really worth checking out...they play the whole tune through properly once, and then the guitar synth comes out (but it's cool) and they just rip for another 10 minutes.

I love how committed he is to that one guitar synth patch, it seems so antithetical to the idea of synths, but dammit he's going to play the fuck out of that patch

Haha. Ok I think Trio>Live is now officially my favorite Metheny album.

It's great that Metheny likes to switch things up and also keeps hiring young musicians (his current drummer is Joe Dyson, a great New Orleans drummer who I saw with Donald Harrison when he was probably 15). But it's also insane that he's never reunited this trio in the last 20+ years (?).

This random facebook page has a full concert: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=506269073217146

Fucking Bill Stewart.

Check out Bill (and everyone!) killing it on this Mingus cover:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LvXPjUcIcQ

Full band, btw:
Maceo Parker – alto saxophone, piano, organ
Fred Wesley – trombone
Alfred "Pee Wee" Ellis – tenor saxophone
Don Pullen – organ
Rodney Jones – guitar
Bill Stewart – drums
Bootsy Collins – bass guitar, guitar

I think those Maceo albums were also the first time I heard Bill Stewart, love that he was in that band. It's great to hear him play pocket and just keep it there, but still be able to hear the little Bill Stewart details.

The one time I saw him live was with John Scofield. I assume he's well-regarded, but I never hear anyone (outside of drummers) talk about him. Then again, not sure who outside of drummers would talk about him, lol.

Damn, I've never seen him. His trio with Larry Goldings and Peter Bernstein was playing in Milwaukee a few years ago and I didn't make the trip. I think any modern jazz musician would talk about him pretty reverently, same as Brian Blade or anyone from that generation, I think they're living legends at this point.

Some fun breakdowns here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gA6XaUiX68

My recent Rock Nacional studies led me to wonder about Pedro Aznar’s time with Pat but I haven’t really grokked it yet.

I did see the Bill Stewart Larry Goldings Peter Bernstein trio somewhat recently in the beforetimes at the Jazz Standard and it was as good as advertised.

I love how committed he is to that one guitar synth patch, it seems so antithetical to the idea of synths, but dammit he's going to play the fuck out of that patch

Lol, good to know.

There some great sets by John Scofield's (w/Bill Stewart) and Bill Frisell's current trios here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30f1xTrVqXU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEfgRFzbgjU

Who is that Frisell drummer?

Rudy Royston

This is another good Bill Stewart on drums set with Scofield and Steve Swallow filmed for European TV in NYC. It is pretty much like having a chair right at the front of the stage. Really cool to see these people play that close up and it sounds excellent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIMkmbxwpco

Vimeo has an on-demand John Scofield documentary. Included are several bonus features, including one with Pat Metheny (11 min).

this is good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIILHmcVc2Y

ridiculous i been sleepin on pat metheny all this time

— Flea (@flea333) April 1, 2024

RHCP are good again

Kinda hard to believe a bit considering PMs first record is one of the primary Jaco albums. Id figure he would know that one.

this bright size life album is fucking rad

— Flea (@flea333) April 1, 2024

April Fools?

North Sea Jazz Archive posted a 75min video of Pat Metheny Trio on YouTube from 1999, including three Ornette Coleman songs.

thanks! can't get enough stewart (and pat of course:)

Need info on his “minimalist” period in the 70s
Is this a thing? My kid’s music teacher mentioned it

Maybe because he was on ECM it's sort of associated with that but not really. Perhaps an album like Watercolors?

Electric counterpoint

ooh that was the 80s tho

Oh wow, I was unaware of this album.

New Chautauqua maybe. It's has a style that is similar to modern solo guitar players. Like this is kind of minimal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSXPkMWxuns

Love New Chautauqua