What's with that constant cymbal tapping in jazz drumming?

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This is one of the things I find annoying in the sound of a lot of jazz. Why did this become so common? Does anyone else find it annoying?

Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 25 December 2002 21:46 (seventeen years ago) link

aaarrggghhh, yes, that endless ride cymbal tapping, it drives me NUTS. one of the biggest reasons that i hate jazz. oh, what, apart from it being crap and all. argh, the treble overpower of it all...

suzy and nick are USING THEIR POWERS FOR EVIL to take the piss out of me on the other board, so i must defend my honour...

kate, Wednesday, 25 December 2002 21:51 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, now, I wouldn't go so far as to call it all crap. I want to like it, and not just for whatever status symbol value it still has. I want to like it because I can hear that there is something going on, but I just can't get into most of it. (One reason I like Sun Ra is precisely the unusual mix of percussion that he uses, as well as his quirky approach to rhythm.) But I'm glad to know someone else is driven crazy by that sound. It baffles me that it's become such a dominant convention in jazz, but I guess that amounts to saying "It baffles me that other people would have different taste from mine" (which, come to think of it, it often does).

Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 25 December 2002 22:01 (seventeen years ago) link

it is to keep time. that is the responsibility of a drummer. even in avant garde jazz, where it is not as common to hear straight time on the ride cymbal, the drummer keeps the pulse even if there are no time signatures assigne to the music.
in the beginning of jazz, it was most common for the drummer to keep time using both sticks in the snare drum. eventually, with the advent of swing, the hihat replaced the snare as the primary instrument keeping time. this allowed the snare drum to be used as an accent for the horn lines the band was playing. as swing evolved into bop, the ride cymbal was used more frequently. there are a lot of possible reasons for this. one is that the ride cymbal plays much more clearly at the fast speeds of bebop. many of the styles of jazz that were influenced by bop borrowed that cymbal tradition.

i like the sound of a good ride cymbal. i like hearing it in jazz. as for why it became so common, one could ask the same of the guitar in rock or folk music, ie there are a lot of explanations, but ultimately the jazz ride pattern is so much a part of jazz that it becomes part of the definition, even if there are exceptions. i mean, you wouldn;t ask "why are there so many singers in choral music?" or "why are there so many synthetic sounds in synth-pop?"

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 25 December 2002 22:04 (seventeen years ago) link

wow, aaron, you explain a lot of things about drumming, jazz-wise and indie-wise and other. you've actually made some things made sense that never did before. that's really cool, thanks for making me re-examine these things, i'm going to have to listen with fresh ears next time i hear a ride cymbal. :-)

kate, Wednesday, 25 December 2002 22:13 (seventeen years ago) link

And when you think of the way percussion is used all over the world and then compare it to the standard jazz drum kit (and I realize that jazz has at times expanded beyond that considerably), well, to me that jazz sound, as sound, falls far short. As for the actual rhythmic approach, I can't comment much since I still have no clue as to what Elvin Jones, for example, is actually doing. (Still, enough people seem to get it that I accept I am missing something.)

[Incoming fire:] as for why it became so common, one could ask the same of the guitar in rock or folk music, ie there are a lot of explanations, but ultimately the jazz ride pattern is so much a part of jazz that it becomes part of the definition, even if there are exceptions. i mean, you wouldn;t ask "why are there so many singers in choral music?" or "why are there so many synthetic sounds in synth-pop?"

I think you gave some sort of technical explanation earlier in your message.

It's probably not a question with clear-cut answers. Fair enough. I think the comparison to the place of the guitar in rock or folk makes some sense, but surely jazz is not as defined by the ride cymbal sound as choral or synth-pop are defined by group singing and synthetic sounds, respectively. There has been enough jazz made that is not dominated by it (or doesn't feature it at all even) that it's certainly possible to imagine jazz being made without it.

Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 25 December 2002 22:13 (seventeen years ago) link

Actually, this was on my mind, because I looked up someone's name in the Sun Ra biography, and came across this tidbit: "Sonny told Hunter he wanted the 'burlesque sound' [That's it! He uses slinky stripper rhythms!] from his drummers, that 'Calumet City sound,' a sensuous beat played mostly on the snare instead of the cymbals." (However, it goes on to complicate matters considerably, so I'm stopping there.)

Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 25 December 2002 22:31 (seventeen years ago) link

perhaps a better comparison would be to imagine the question "what is with the bass drum in house music"? It is fair enough to say that jazz can be made without a ride cymbal. I have a number of records that have drummers playing everything but their ride cymbals. I guess I am just trying to get my head around the question -it seems so weird to me.

kate are you being serious or sarcastic?

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Thursday, 26 December 2002 00:17 (seventeen years ago) link

here is some more random jazz drumming info:
The switch from the hihat to ride as the primary instrument, as I said, occured during the advent of bop music. Since there was a recording strike in the early 40s that coincided with the beginning of bop music, it is hard to pin down the first drummer who made the switch, although I have heard some claim that it was Max Roach, who played for Charlie Parker at that time. As I have said, the ride cymbal is more defined than the hihat, so it lent itself to the fast tempos they, among other bands, were playing. Also, a good ride cymbal will have a lot of flexibility in terms of the sounds it can make, depending on where one strikes it, and with what part of the stick. This is obvious, but worth noting because a lot of jazz drummers will play a lot of different type of accents on the ride while they are keeping time. compare this with rock drumming, which can sometimes involve a great many cymbals, each played in basically one way. The great drummer Mel Lewis called that laziness, but he was good enough to back that sort of claim up.

Playing on the ride also gives the drummer the opportunity to be more flexible with his or her other limbs. With the advent of bop, the bass drum was also gradually freed from most of its responsibilities, allowing it to be used for accents along with the snare drum. Also, many drummers, especially Tony Williams, who played with Miles Davis, use their left foot to crash the hihat, which becomes another accent. The more precise term in the context of bop and post-bop drumming would be comping as opposed to accenting. comping is a skill that can't be learned from a book, but rather involves years of practice and listening. a good jazz drummer will comp along to a soloist, and work at the same time to guide the soloist. a typical was of comping would be to play more notes on the drums with greater frequency in order to egg a soloist on, or to build up to a climax. gradually lessening the amount of strokes helps to bring a soloist down. the best bands in jazz are considered as such primarily because of the ability of the members to cohere into areal group and aid each other with their solos. What makes Miles Davis' quintet from the late 60s so amazing is to hear is that one can really feel a certain telepathy between the members of the rhythym section as they build in intensity or as they coast or as they decrease the energy of the music.

umm I hope this helped a little bit. I can go get out my drumming texts if you would like.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Thursday, 26 December 2002 00:44 (seventeen years ago) link

This is the kind of thread that keeps me reading ILM. Thank you for a worthwhile post Aaron.

Mike Taylor (mjt), Thursday, 26 December 2002 00:52 (seventeen years ago) link

What you've added here is interesting, but I'm not sure you need to get out the drumming texts. (I will read what you post, however, and probably with interest.) I still don't understand why the drums themselves wouldn't be the primary instrument in the drum kit.

If nothing else, this is making me interested in listening to more early recordings to hear how the sound of the rhythm section changed over the years.

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 26 December 2002 01:08 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't even know what "Calumet City" is. Is that an actual place, or some sort of expression?

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 26 December 2002 01:21 (seventeen years ago) link

i pretty much always used the ride for timekeeping & just used the hi-hat with my foot like a tambourine or something. now i have permanent tinnitus.

unknown or illegal user (doorag), Thursday, 26 December 2002 02:33 (seventeen years ago) link

(i don't play jazz tho [don't know how], if i had i guess i would've been playing quieter)

(doorag), Thursday, 26 December 2002 02:34 (seventeen years ago) link

calumet city is a place but I don;t know where.
all of these compliments are making me paranoid.

regarding the evolution of the rhythym section, it is definitely an interesting progression. in the 60s the rhythym sections start to become very agressive, and become more advanced, though each era had its own innovations and excellent players. if you want to hear a great ensemble without too much ride cymbal, get one of the Bill Evans records from his 1961 dates at the Village Vanguard with Scott LaFaro and Paul Motian. I also like John Coltrane and I love his album "Live at Birdland." on the track "Afro Blue", the rhythym section of Jones, Tyner and Garrison bang multiple time signatures at the same time. the song is 3/4 but there are some improvised unison parts of them playing a slower 4/4 over top. very nice.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Thursday, 26 December 2002 02:46 (seventeen years ago) link

Calumet City is in Illinois, just southwest of Chicago.

hstencil, Thursday, 26 December 2002 02:52 (seventeen years ago) link

What Id like to know is why they use the exact same beat in almost every song.

Also, saying all jazz = crap is so very, very retarded. Considering what a huge, huge, HUGE genre it is.

David Allen, Thursday, 26 December 2002 03:05 (seventeen years ago) link

jazz drumming = grebtest drumming evah

man, Thursday, 26 December 2002 03:07 (seventeen years ago) link

To go off what Aaron said, in general the drums in jazz are used for comping and time is kept on the cymbals, i.e. quarter notes are played on the ride cymbal so that the drums are free to be used on any part of the beat in any manner (in bop and later drumming of course). Think of it as creating a context of flexibility for the drums.

An interesting counterpoint to this is New Orleans brass band music, in which cymbals aren't emphasized and the snare and bass drums are definitely the primary instruments, and there is still a large degree of rhythmic flexibility and interaction. This still lends itself to a certain sound though, blues and New Orleans standards (and transfers over well to rock and hip-hop), it just wouldn't sound right for modern jazz. As Aaron said, it was more a case of drummers changing the way they play to fit the needs of the music rather than some arbitrary or tradition-based decision.

Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 26 December 2002 03:11 (seventeen years ago) link

"Live at Birdland." on the track "Afro Blue", the rhythym section of Jones, Tyner and Garrison bang multiple time signatures at the same time. the song is 3/4 but there are some improvised unison parts of them playing a slower 4/4 over top.

I have this. I'll have to listen and see if I can hear what you are describing, but I probably either won't or it won't do anything for me.

I'm unlikely to blindly buy any jazz CDs for a long time to come, but I might be able to borrow that Bill Evans recording.

(I still say that the problem with keeping time with the cymbals is that you then have to constantly hear them, which for me is a negative.)

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 26 December 2002 03:50 (seventeen years ago) link

Now that I have mulled this over, I see how funny it is that I have missed the fact that it's usually the ride cymbal which is keeping time. I must really not get jazz most of the time to miss something that fundamental. (I know that, though I have no musical training, I have a tolerable sense of rhythm, since I can Latin dance fairly well, with lots of appreciative feedback from many different partners, not just friends.)

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 26 December 2002 04:17 (seventeen years ago) link

Anyhow, this gives me something to listen for. Funny how, even without any real music theory involved, just having a little history of different ways the rhythm section has been used, helps to clarify things.

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 26 December 2002 04:20 (seventeen years ago) link

constant cymbal tapping is only in bop and hard bop man get with it.

chaki (chaki), Thursday, 26 December 2002 05:15 (seventeen years ago) link

Regarding "Afro-Blue", listen for when Tyner is banging on the piano right before Coltrane comes in in the middle of the track. he plays some large, sustained chords. if you count "1 2 3" at the original tempo of the song, which is rather brisk, and then hear Tyner playing those chords at the same time, you will hear how the chords repeat in a slower cycle than the cycle you are counting. the chords seem to become part of another song with a different time signature. i don;t know if it technically counts as an imposition of a different time signature, and I welcome the correction of any theory buffs, but it is interesting to listen for regardless.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Thursday, 26 December 2002 08:07 (seventeen years ago) link

also see the liberation of the cymbals as textural, oceanic soup; and as aaron skirts above, the notion of implied time

(cecil taylor p'haps the greatest free jazz drummer ever?)

bob zemko (bob), Thursday, 26 December 2002 10:16 (seventeen years ago) link

Hmm, some jazzers I know would retort "what's that constant whacking of the snare drum on beats 2 and 4 in rock drumming? This is one of the things I find annoying in the sound of a lot of rock. Why did this become so common? Does anyone else find it annoying?"

Aaron's response that it's about time and the switch to cymbals in the bop era to free up the snare and bass drum more creative use is absolutely OTM as far as it goes. But at the same time the function of primary timekeeper in modern jazz switched from drums to bass. This is something of an oversimplification, obv., but as Wynton Marsalis says:

"The bass player is the key. He needs to keep a steady pulse, to provide the bottom and to hold the music together. This frees up the drummer to play".

Insofar as this is true, the cymbal is not a necessary time keeping device (think of small jazz combos that don't have a drummer for example). But it's hugely helpful in enabling drummer and bassist to lock together to provide the rhythmic pulse. It's the dynamic give-and-take relationship between the drummer's sense of where the beat should be - evidenced by the very hard, defined trebly sound of the cymbal - and the bassists, evidenced by the fatter, less well defined sound of the bass - that defines the pulse of much jazz.

What I'm really saying is that to see the cymbal's function as time-keeping is overly simple. It's an aesthetic solution to an aesthetic problem. Other functional solutions could be found (eg leave it to the bassist to keep time) but that one has been preferred because to practitioners and fans of the music alike it best conveys the dynamic interplay of the rhythm section. In short, it sounds better.

ArfArf, Thursday, 26 December 2002 16:30 (seventeen years ago) link

some jazzers I know would retort "what's that constant whacking of the snare drum on beats 2 and 4 in rock drumming? This is one of the things I find annoying in the sound of a lot of rock. Why did this become so common? Does anyone else find it annoying?"

In its crudest form, rock drumming often gets on my nerves as well.

Good to hear your alternate account, emphasizing the bass.

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 26 December 2002 16:46 (seventeen years ago) link

I like this thread a lot. Thank you Aaron (and ArfArf, and Rockist S, etc.). I do want to echo chaki, though: get with it, or perhaps he should have said get up with it, or get big fun, or get on the corner, or get prime time. That is, a lot of these generalizations go out the window once bands try to take in James Brown and Sly Stone. The tap-tap-tap-tap doesn't always go away, but when it stays, its function changes. Curious what you guys would say about that function. Sometimes the tap-tap-tap-tap just seems like an anachronism.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 26 December 2002 18:38 (seventeen years ago) link

Frank and chaki, apparently you both missed the fact that I acknowledge exceptions. I hear a hell of a lot of the hi-hat sound, however. (And it's not the only thing I don't like about mostjazz, just something I can put my finger on.)

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 26 December 2002 18:49 (seventeen years ago) link

Sorry, Rockist, I didn't mean to come off as argumentative. I wanted to make a pun, but also see what people have to say about the "exceptions," because the exceptions aren't just exceptions, they're whole other directions. The explanations so far have been for the move to bop, but what about the move from bop to the current what-have-you?

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 26 December 2002 19:33 (seventeen years ago) link

two weeks pass...
Reviving the thread?

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 15 January 2003 20:27 (seventeen years ago) link

Calumet City was apparently one of the places where Sun Ra played in strip joints. A heavily mob-controlled area (at least for the establishments in which he played).

Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 15 January 2003 20:30 (seventeen years ago) link

also where jame gumb in silence of the lambs once lived

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 15 January 2003 20:58 (seventeen years ago) link

and of course it's where the orphanage where the Blues Brothers are "from."

hstencil, Wednesday, 15 January 2003 21:03 (seventeen years ago) link

Jazz robot Phil Schaap calls that the "sting".

mosurock (mosurock), Thursday, 16 January 2003 07:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Frank anything I said about the role of the cymbal in funk would be a gross over simplification. Especially as a I'm not a drummer.


Wynton Marsalis said on the Ken Burn's thing that his definition of jazz was music with a particular triplet-based rhythmic swing. (Despite having quoted WM twice approvingly on this thread I'm not a disciple or a particular fan). We are never going to get agreement on where the barrier between jazz and not-jazz should be drawn, but for various reasons I think this is the most practical place. The issue is clouded by the fact that "not-jazz" is too often used as a pejorative term by critics: in my view it should be a purely descriptive term with no value attached.

If you accept this definition "Bitches Brew", for example, is "not jazz" (I love "Bitches Brew" - this is not an attempt to sneak in a denigration of electric Miles).

You can see where my argument is headed: once you look at "jazz" that is influenced by Sly/JB, then if you accept my argument it is "not jazz" and even if you don't there is a quantum leap away from the jazz that went before. We are not talking subtle gradations of difference.

Looking at the characteristics of funk rhythm sections as opposed to jazz (caution: gross simplification/generalisations to follow)

- the implied triplet feel of jazz is replaced by a squarer 4/4 time where 8th beats are regularised.

- much more of the drum kit is given over to keeping time. Typically the bass drum and snare drum will play repetitive patterns as well as the cymbals. That so much more whole kit is dedicated to keeping time gives the drummer the choice of using cymbals to reinforce the regular pattern or frees them up for emphasis/decoration.

- These repetitive patterns can be extremely complex though. The mix of offbeats and on-beats is much more sophisticated than most earlier rock drumming. They would also vary between sections of the song (in some James Brown songs the tendency to stay on a single chord meant that subtle differences in the basic rhythm might be the only or main difference between verse and bridge, for example).

- Because many of the guys playing this style were virtuosi they could maintain and subtly vary these sophisticated patterns while

- The bassist will "lock" with this overall pattern (this is very different from the typical jazz pattern where, as mentioned, the bassist locks with the cymbal and the rest of the kit it freed up for more creative emphasis etc).

- The bassist will also play a repetitive rhythmic pattern, often on a single chord throughout. This has important implications:

1 In jazz the division of time into bars is much less obvious because there is a fairly even flow of quarter beats on cymbal and bass. In funk the more typical pattern is for the bass and drums to come together strongly on the "one" beat of the bar followed by the drums and bass playing divergent but complementary patterns of off and on beats. Hence in Funkadelic the constant quasi-mystical reference to the "One". (Just to illustrate how simplistic this is the repetition could be over two bars not one, so the "One" is emphasised only every second bar; and some patterns manage to emphasise the "One" even though neither the bass or drums play the one beat!

2 Funk tends to be harmonically very simple and is glued together by the bass playing a repetitive harmonic pattern. Jazz tunes tend to go on a harmonic journey coming "home" by resolving to the tonic periodically every 8 or 16 or 32 bars. Funk typically comes "home" harmonically at the beginning of every bar when the bass thumps out the root note of the chord. In any case the bass's use of repetitive patterns glues the harmony together.

One consequence of this is that extremely discordant elements can be introduced. The discordant elements in jazz tend to be "controlled": increasingly discordant harmonies are introduced as the music develops and the ear accepts these for two reasons:

1 These discordant harmonies are resolved to the more consonant tonic.

2. With familiarisation the jazz fan learns to regard these harmonies as beautiful (or semi-consonant) in themselves.

In funk the second reason can effectively be done away with: the "glue" of the harmonically repeated bassline and the return "home" to the root at the beginning of every bar means that the ear will tolerate a much greater amount of temporary dissonance, because it is so transient. There is no need for the dissonance to be controlled or consonant to the "educated" ear. This has huge implications for rap and other sample-based forms where the
samples of non-musical materials, or music from different keys can be collaged together and be made to sound congruous by the repetitive harmonic and rhythmic patterns of bass and drums.

(A similar effect is achieved in a lot of free jazz where the use of modal harmonic background means that extreme discordancy can be offset by a continual returning home to harmonic familiarity. That's why lots of listeners brought up on funk or certain rock forms can respond more easily to free jazz than to mainstream jazz: it's a smaller leap, because it's much closer to what they are musically familiar with).

ArfArf, Thursday, 16 January 2003 12:18 (seventeen years ago) link

Sorry, this was typed very quickly and re-reading it a lot of it is v. badly expressed.

ArfArf, Thursday, 16 January 2003 12:29 (seventeen years ago) link

(i wish you'd write more of this kind of stuff ArfArf: ILM really lacks it)

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 16 January 2003 14:00 (seventeen years ago) link

I agree. damn fine post.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 16 January 2003 14:05 (seventeen years ago) link

Thanks guys. Now I'm embarrassed.

ArfArf, Thursday, 16 January 2003 16:57 (seventeen years ago) link

Embarrassed or not, please keep posting.

One point (which doesn't contradict what you wrote above, I don't think) is that a lot of nonjazz uses the triplet-based rhythmic swing, too - if by "triplet-based rhythmic swing" you mean what I think you do: the basic time is 4/4, but each of the four beats subdivides into three rather than two, so that there would be twelve rather than eight of those short beats to the measure (12/8 would be a way of writing the time-signature, but that'd be extremely misleading, since the basic rhythm is still really 4/4; I think the usual way of writing it is "4/4, with swing feel," or something).

Anyway, when someone says "triplet-based rhythmic swing," I immediately think of boogie, not jazz (not that the two forms are unrelated, and obviously if Louis Jordan had been included within the definition of jazz way-back-when, a lot of subsequent music that ended up being called "pop" and "rock" would be called jazz; in another universe). Anyway, there are Slade songs with that triplet swing, there are hardcore punk songs with that triplet swing, and so forth.

Another question: What about Latin jazz, Palmieri and Puente and those guys? The bass is often in counterrhythm, playing in a three rhythm (though actually playing only two of the three notes) where the rest of the instruments are in two or four. What does this do to the drummer's role?

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 16 January 2003 17:14 (seventeen years ago) link


I agree the triplet-based swing thing appears in other places, and 12/8 is a characteristic blues shuffle and much rock derives from blues. And some of the early pop players (eg the Motown guys) were basically jazzers and that feel steals in all over the place. (One of the subtler things is that in some r'n'b eighth-note rythms are played straight but 16th notes are swung - "Until It Comes Back to Me" by Aretha, an underrated classic with great bass playing by Chuck Rainey is a good example.)

My preference for a rhythmic distinction between jazz and not jazz is not that its perfect. But it has the virtue of simplicity and I think it gets it right more of the time than any other method, especially since the area of contention most often discussed is between jazz and rock/pop.

If we're going to call Bitches Brew jazz I can't see where you stop as you move through to Mahavishnu and then to Carlos Santana or Cream. And the popular notion that jazz = improvision is a non-starter because it's easy to think of so much improvised music, from rock to raga that's clearly not jazz.

A certain amount of music with a jazz feel contains little or no improvision (Sinatra with Nelson Riddle, etc). If Miles wrote out his trumpet parts on the Gil Evans stuff would it stop being jazz? Louis Jordan (or certainly early LJ) as far as I'm concerned, is jazz. I'm aware that he re-recorded a lot of stuff in the fifties with production-values and instrumentation designed to appeal to rock'n'roll fans (Scotty Moore-style guitar and a more heavily emphasised back-beat) but I'd need to hear that stuff again to offer an opinion on how far it moved away from a swing feel.

But this is semantics: I personally find it the most useful way to draw the distinction, and in an ideal world I'd like to see it become the norm, but realistically it ain't gonna happen. Record stores are not going to start filing pre IASW Miles in a different place from post.

Once you get into Latin music things start to get really hard to describe. Just to take the most basic traditional Cuban son, for example: the implicit feel is derived from the clave-pattern which can be 3-2 or 2-3. A 3-2 clave will involve a repeating 2 bar pattern. In the first bar the clave is struck 3 times, the first time on the one beat, the second and third time on the off beats ("2 and" and "3 and"); in the second bar the clave is struck twice (on the on beats 2 and 3). Against this the simplest bass can be a completely unsyncopated half note on 1 followed by quarter-notes on 3 and 4 (both bars). Two simple rhythms played against one another, but already the "egg rolling down a hill" feel of so much latin music is there. Against this the timbales might play 5 beats in the first bar (on one, 2, 2-and, 3-and, and 4) and 4 in the second (regular quarter note on-beats). You can see how complicated this is getting, but this is still the rhythm for a simple, rustic Cuban dance: think how rarely you hear a Cuban bass player playing regular on-beats and you'll realise just how much of a simplification it is.

The rhythms derive from traditional dances, and have their roots in African music. Already complex rhythms were made increasingly complex by brilliant innovators like Cachaito. And different parts of Latin America have different traditions.

Obviously people from a jazz or rock tradition will not import these rhythms unchanged: often they simplify them drastically , so that a basic bass rhythm in most jazz bossa is based on playing a dotted quarter note followed by an eighth note (the rhythm at the start of "Rikki Don't Lose That Number".

You're probably not going to find much of that helpful as it is overly technical but the subject is just so huge. I don't have much experience of playing Latin music and someone who does might be able to do a better job of simplifying the subject and extracting the essence.

ArfArf, Thursday, 16 January 2003 19:14 (seventeen years ago) link

"brilliant innovators like Cachaito."

Have you heard his solo album? It's great.

Ben Williams, Thursday, 16 January 2003 19:34 (seventeen years ago) link

ArfArf is OTM but I would like to add a few more things (I had written a MASSIVE post on this subject when this thread was initially active, but it was swallowed whole by the then-disfunctional ILX).
I would still easily consider the fusion that I have heard (Bithes Brew and some bits from Live:Evil, both Miles) to be still very much in the jazz vein. The reason why funk drumming is so simple and repetitive (though obviously NOT artless) is that as the bass takes on more and more of the melodic work, the drummer must leave a lot of room. Listen to "I Want You Back" by Jackson 5 to see how much can go on with the bass, and how much room must be left for it (I think the drummer only plays 4 or 5 fills the whole song). In jazz, even, fusion, the drummer still has a lot more freedom. Listening to DeJohnette playing on "Sivad" from Live:Evil, one can hear how he is not playing the 2 and 4 on the snare. He is still accenting, or comping, and adding note to interact with the soloists. Fusion really sounds to me like a jazz drummer playing jazz on a rock kit in that in bebop, the drummer, as I have mentioned above, does not really have cymbals that perform singular purposes. All cymbals on a jazz kit can be crasshed or ridden, whereas with rock, one uses the Ride cymbal for riding, and the Crash cymbal for crashing. Some jazz drummers are a little snobby about this difference, as evidenced in Paiste's line of "Traditional" cymbals that came out a few years ago. On the cymbals, meant for jazz players, there are no markings indicating the purpose of the cymbal (many cymbals say "Ride" or "Crash" on them). To get back to the playing, Dejohnette, on Live:Evil, is using a rock kit, and you can hear him hitting crash cymbals where a jazz drummer would have used his whole stick (as opposed to the bead or tip) to accent on the "ride".

The problem with Marsalis is that he (being the ideological fool he is... doesn't he know that he is working to consign jazz to the role of mood music for white bobos?) leaves out a lot of techniques of avant-garde jazz drumming. AG drumming, or Aaron Grossman drumming (oopps haha I mean Avant Garde) can be very abstract. I would compare some of it to Abstract Impressionist painting. WIth Pollack, Rothko, etc., color and mood take precedent over direct figurative representation (the jazz analogue being ting-ting ta-ting). In AG drumming, the drumer can be more of a soloist on an equal level with the other players.
Here are some themes and highlights of post-bop drumming (a very incomplete survey):
* Tony Williams playing "So What" on Miles' 1964 Complete Concert. On this track, one can really hear Tony pushing the band. He plays very loudly at certain moments, pushing the rhythym section more towards the forefront. He also uses some rolls and a few minimal little repeated parts to break up the time. There is a moment in which he plays a roll during a solo where he starts off more intensly and then brings the volume (and pitch too) down and effectively guides the solo.
* Tony Williams playing on "Hat and Beard" on Eric Dolphy's "Out to Lunch". Listening to the beginning of this track, one can hear Marsalis' swing conception fall apart. Williams plays some very straightforward ideas. His playing at times is almost military.
* Milford Graves playing on all of Albert Ayler's "Love Cry". I still can't decipher much of the drumming on this album, but it is worth noting that just as Ayler tried to bring the music back to its more chaotic and melodic roots in New Orleans, Graves sounds like a marching band that has had too much to drink. He plays a lot of rolls all around the kit, and the rolls add color, and sometimes seem to not have anything to do with timekeeping at at all.
* Pete La Roca Sims playing "Sin Street" on his own album "Turkish Women at the Bath" This whole album is classic. It has John Gilmore on sax, a member of Sun Ra's band, and a major influence on Coltrane. It also has Chick Corea pre-scientology. Most importantly, Pete Sims plays very well on this record. Sims is one of the most underrated players in jazz. He played (undocumented) as one of the first drummer with John Coltrane's classic quartet, and he also worked with Sonny Rollins, Joe Henderson, and Jackie McLean (Sims' solo on "Minor Apprehension" on the album New Soil is supposed to be incredible but I have yet to hear it). Sims' playing on "Sin Street" is mind-boggling, as he manages to make the odd-time signature swing very hard. His solo, however, is incredibly loose and impressionistic.
* There are a lot of other great AG drummers out there, but two more I would like to mention are Jim Black and Susie Ibarra, who are both doing a lot to advance the idea of the drummer as creator of texture. They both utilize a whole range of percussion onstage (or so I have heard, as neither have made it to DC recently). They have both played on a lot of different sessions, so just go to Allmusic...


Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Thursday, 16 January 2003 20:52 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't really have the technical understanding to hang with you all, but I was going to say that the drumming inMiles' fusion stuff is as much in the vein of free jazz as it is in funk. I think his 70s bands borrowed most directly from funk on the bass, not the drums: they almost all feature simple, repetitive basslines that provide the harmony and act as a center for everyone else to riff of off, or just ignore altogether. Especially in the early 70s bands, before the guitar started to be featured more heavily, all the players would go off on extended flights of improvisation--until Miles decided to reenter the fray, at which point he would bring everyone back together behind him (John Szwed's book is great on all this).

And then on the record on which Miles most closely borrowed from funk, On the Corner, you could argue that the drumming in a sense takes funk's radicalism further, inasmuch as the drummer (I forget who it was) just plays the same extremely simple stacatto pattern for pretty much the whole 30 minutes (I don't know how to put it in technical terms, but it's a real short little riff on hi-hats, I think), with a breaks to lay out into the relatively straight-ahead, catchy rock groove, handclaps and whistles of "Black Satin" (maybe that's why that's the most well-known tune on the album).

If you compare it with Sly's "In Time" off Fresh, which was an inspiration for On the Corner, you can see how they sound similar, yet it's like Miles has cubed what Sly was doing. Not only is the basic drum pattern simpler, more aggressive and higher in the mix, but it's then supplemented by tablas (which lock into the drums' groove quite organically, unlike some of the other stuff on which Miles threw in tablas as superfluous atmosphere). Then you have the bass and the guitar playing these short, incredibly angular riffs against the grain of the drums, and the mix is panning around the soundfield, emphasizing and deemphasizing different elements with its own sense of rhythm, and the tabla is droning away in the backgroun... there's so much going on in that record.

The great thing about Miles' fusion stuff is that it's all so different. People tend to lump it altogether, but he was evolving from record to record just as fast as (or faster than) any other time in his career.

Ben Williams, Thursday, 16 January 2003 21:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Aaron and ArfArf: please don't apologize for your posts. They're great.

I think there was a lot of looping and splicing on On the Corner, but I haven't listened recently (and often can't tell when I listen, anyway).

Next question: what about no wave? When I was in New York in the late '70s early '80s, there were jazz musicians and nonjazz musicians going out of their way to play with each other, to see what would happen. Some of this was in no wave, some of this was in "improv." Bob Quine of the Voidoids and Jody Harris of the Contortions took lots from On the Corner, though they're guitarists, not drummers. Seems that there's so much ongoing cross-fertilization, and if you don't let it in to your sense of "jazz," you banish jazz from the present. It may be just the word jazz that gets banished, but nothing is just semantic.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 17 January 2003 00:17 (seventeen years ago) link

I know nothing about no-wave except for what I am about to read in the Wire from November 2002 ;-)

As for defining jazz, some semi-famous musician (can't remember who) said that "the only tradition in jazz is innovation" and that is how I look at it. If one considers how quickly the music evolved over the last 100 years, reactionary attitudes make even less sense.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Friday, 17 January 2003 01:44 (seventeen years ago) link

I wish I played rhythmically interesting music so I could ask Aaron to play with me, he sounds like a grebt person to play with

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 17 January 2003 01:56 (seventeen years ago) link

thanks john. i am on indefinite leave from playing, however, as i hate my drum set and have no place to set it up anyways.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Friday, 17 January 2003 02:29 (seventeen years ago) link

just plays the same extremely simple staccato pattern for pretty much the whole 30 minutes (I don't know how to put it in technical terms, but it's a real short little riff on hi-hats, I think)

I don't think it was an identical pattern, but similar ones: he'd play consecutive sixteenth notes sometimes for just under a measure and sometimes just over a measure, and then stop dead for the next measure (plus or minus the remainder), which had the effect of screeching the car to a halt every other measure while the rest of the music tumbled forward into a ditch. I don't know enough about funk or jazz to know if this was unique to Miles' recordings, but I suspect it was; and it's related to what Miles himself would often do: just play a trumpet note or two, or a squiggle, and STOP. Same effect. (Or he'd fool around during the mixing, keep punching a hair-raising organ sound in and out, on and off; especially in "Rated X" (on Get Up With It), a track I refer to as "Shaft Goes To Hell." For better or worse, all this had an inspiring on my guitar playing, since I got the idea to play a couple notes and then stop and not play anything for a bar or two. I found this appealing because it seemed to give me great power to shape the music without having to actually play very much, which was good strategy, since I couldn't improvise for shit.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 17 January 2003 07:46 (seventeen years ago) link

I missed this thread back in there somewhere. I don't understand this question at all--you're asking what the drums *do* in jazz music or something? It does seem totally rock-centric to me, this question and this whole attitude. Simplistically you could say the evolution of timekeeping in jazz was the shift from two-beat to four-four, which the Basie band and Fletcher Henderson basically pioneered, and what Count Basie was doing in the '30s is the *basis* for what rock and roll would do later. So I don't understand why anyone would put the question so baldly, "constant cymbal tapping," I mean would you ask "constant bashing" when referring to John Bonham? They're just two different ways to keep time, play the drums, right? I'm no serious jazzbo or nothing, but listen to Tony Williams with Miles Davis and get back to me about "cymbal tapping." Not trying to knock anyone, but I mean come on!

edd s hurt (ddduncan), Friday, 6 May 2005 01:38 (fourteen years ago) link

I just find it a really annoying timbre most of the time, or an annoying combination of timbre and rhythm. As for rock-centric, read my comments elsewhere in the thread. Rock has probably made up about 5% of what I've listened to over the past decade. After all that defensiveness, though, I admit it may be a stupid question, or a stupid way of asking a question, but sometimes asking a stupid question leads to intelligent and informed responses.

RS_LaRue (RSLaRue), Friday, 6 May 2005 01:44 (fourteen years ago) link

Not that the original question was really asking for information. I think it was just a way for me to say: the sound of that constant cymbal tapping--ugh!

RS_LaRue (RSLaRue), Friday, 6 May 2005 01:47 (fourteen years ago) link

So you still feel that way, RS?

I've been using my beautiful little four piece kit with an 18" bass drum and two 20" rides for everything for a few years now, but I've gotten to the point where I don't really like using it for anything but jazz/bebop. Anything else (be it trad jazz or rock) needs a bigger, deeper kick drum with a sharper attack.

Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 6 May 2005 02:45 (fourteen years ago) link

Hurting, just wondering if you recommend against the Avedis Zildjian series rides for jazz specifically, or in general? Right now I use an Avedis crash/ride but have decided that I need something bigger, and was thinking about an 18-19" Avedis ride. However, I don't play anything remotely jazz, although I do love when I get the chance to play jazz size kits.

Oblivious Lad. (Oblivious Lad), Friday, 6 May 2005 05:21 (fourteen years ago) link

this thread really is the model for how musician-centric questions-and-answers on here should go. bravo all.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Friday, 6 May 2005 05:45 (fourteen years ago) link

I gotta be honest, I think this thread is great, and RS is OTM re: "sometimes asking a stupid question leads to intelligent and informed responses," but whenever I read the subject line for this thread on ILM it still makes me a little bit mad. Like, why all the beats in rap music?

Lethal Dizzle (djdee2005), Friday, 6 May 2005 05:56 (fourteen years ago) link

My favorite bit of cymbal tapping is Art Blakey's work, especially on the version of "A Night In Tunisia" featuring Wayne Shorter and Lee Morgan. The way he juggles the polyrhythms and just keeps that tap-tap-tap going is a thing of beauty.

Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Friday, 6 May 2005 06:02 (fourteen years ago) link

So you still feel that way, RS?

Pretty much, yeah. I go in and out of phases of trying to give mainstream jazz a chance. One reason I would bother to start this sort of thread is that I keep coming back to give jazz a chance, and then being put off by it. If I were to just give up on it completely, I probably would never make the types of comments I've made here, since it wouldn't matter any more. I'm still enjoying a very narrow sliver of contemporary a.g. stuff, and that keeps me happy for now. (I really wish Hopscotch records would respond to the check and e-mails I sent them about two months ago. Fuckin' bohemians.) Anyway, I haven't been testing the mainstream jazz waters much lately.

RS_LaRue (RSLaRue), Friday, 6 May 2005 10:51 (fourteen years ago) link

I was actually thinking of this thread the other day! I had some time to kill on Sunday night, so I went down to the Velvet Lounge and had a couple beers and watched this jazz quartet. At one point, I was watching the drummer and I realized, why he's hitting the ride on every beat! And for a second it was kind of irritating, and then I stopped focusing on it and I was fine.

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 6 May 2005 12:00 (fourteen years ago) link

Hopscotch Records...have you heard Birth?

Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 6 May 2005 12:00 (fourteen years ago) link

Ronnie Scott on drumming in his club: "Normally musicians who come over here from the States like the time to be ten-to-ten (onomatopoeic representation of standard bebop ride cymbal rhythm). But if they get Tony Oxley on drums then the time's more likely to be a quarter past eleven."

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 6 May 2005 12:06 (fourteen years ago) link

Jordan, haven't heard that one, no. I'm mostly interested in the recordings with Cooper-Moore. (There's a new one with Assif Tsahar, but I had ordered some earlier releases.)

RS, Friday, 6 May 2005 12:37 (fourteen years ago) link

Birth is fucking great. They're a sax/electric bass/drums trio that mostly plays a blend of drum n' bass/a.g.. The drummer is Joe Tomino (from Dub Trio) and he's absolutely sick.

Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 6 May 2005 13:17 (fourteen years ago) link

Hurting, just wondering if you recommend against the Avedis Zildjian series rides for jazz specifically, or in general? Right now I use an Avedis crash/ride but have decided that I need something bigger, and was thinking about an 18-19" Avedis ride. However, I don't play anything remotely jazz, although I do love when I get the chance to play jazz size kits.

-- Oblivious Lad. (mjlazowsk...), May 6th, 2005.

I have an Avedis ride that I really like -- it's a 21" "Sweet Ride" -- but I generally find I don't like the sound of the newer A Zildjians, especially rides. It's really all about the individual cymbal and your individual tastes though. It's not like the A Zildjians are

It's also worth considering what kind of music you're going to use it for. If you're playing jazz, or anything relatively quiet, a nice complex, dark ride can really add a lot. But if you're playing loud rock it's just going to get lost in the mix anyway and maybe even cause problems.

Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 6 May 2005 13:23 (fourteen years ago) link

Sorry, that's supposed to say "It's not like the A Zildjians are shoddily made."

Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 6 May 2005 13:32 (fourteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...
these are very nice cymbals

anyone wanna buy some of the turk hi hats off me? ;)

ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 24 May 2005 17:13 (fourteen years ago) link

Me, I like 'em dry and bright, rather than warm and dark.

My current fave ride is a Sabian AAX dry ride.

The Mad Puffin, Tuesday, 24 May 2005 18:08 (fourteen years ago) link

eight months pass...
all these threads have been educational.

vinnotes inrhythm, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 04:10 (fourteen years ago) link

eleven months pass...
I am fucking psycho when it comes to jazz. I'm listening to pandora.com and I just thumbed down a McCoy Tyner track because too jazzy and now I am happily bopping along to the most straight ahead, classically swinging track ever (Vincent Herring "Straight Street") and enjoying it. I don't get me. I think maybe I am just in the mood for something of this sort right at this exact moment, having just finished some good Malaysian food. (Actually the cymbal tapping on this is kind of loose and not constant, come to think of it.)

R_S (RSLaRue), Sunday, 21 January 2007 00:47 (thirteen years ago) link

"what is with the bass drum in house music"?
Interestingly from a DJing perspective there were countless occasions during which time was kept listening to hi hats (crap sound system or monitoring equipment spring to mind) instead of the more felt reference of the bass drum -which can be hard to match precisely even with headphones.

blunt (blunt), Sunday, 21 January 2007 00:56 (thirteen years ago) link

one year passes...

I haven't had time to read the whole thread so some one may have mentioned it but I think I have a partial answer to the original question.

Early records were acoustically recorded. The band would crowd into a room and a large horn would capture the sound directly into a mechanical cutting device. If you listen to popular music from this time you will notice an absence of drums or sudden noises as these would make the mechanical cutting needle jump out of its groove. As a result many bands would leave their drum kits at home and improvise the rhythm section on wooden blocks and tiny hand cymbals. There are stories of early jazz bands traveling to Europe with full kits and seeing the locals replicate their thin recorded drums and then of course... blowing them away.

In 1925 electric recording became feasible but it took a ridiculously long time for the modern drum sound to appear in most recordings. This was in part due to slow to adapt engineers and producers and also the depression, during which record sales fells from historic highs of 150 mill in 1929 to 15 million by 1933. (proving that out of the old adage of entertainment and the price of heroin, only one is recession proof.)

By then, I guess, the sound was pretty well ingrained.

So maybe the cymbal was a technical thing as much as much as a musical one?

Popture, Friday, 27 June 2008 16:26 (eleven years ago) link

five months pass...

Occurs to me that there are a few jazz drummers I really dig who have a more drum-centered, less ride-heavy approach -- Hamid Drake comes to mind, and Ed Blackwell.

Indiespace Administratester (Hurting 2), Friday, 12 December 2008 23:07 (eleven years ago) link

for some reason this thread title is cracking me up

n/a is just more of a character....in a genre polluted by clones (n/a), Friday, 12 December 2008 23:09 (eleven years ago) link

could be a pavlovian response to the seinfeldesque phrasing

n/a is just more of a character....in a genre polluted by clones (n/a), Friday, 12 December 2008 23:10 (eleven years ago) link

at first I thought you meant the cymbal tapping was a response to seinfeldesque bass phrasing

have u ever seen a 77 with a butterfly door (Curt1s Stephens), Friday, 12 December 2008 23:11 (eleven years ago) link

I am not completely alone (but I don't really hate trap drums the way Fiol does, and I love timbales, which he sees as almost as bad as trap drums):

Let me preface my response by saying that one's likes and dislikes in music are quite similar to one's likes and dislikes when it comes to food. Some people can think of nothing better and more enjoyable than the taste and feel of eating a raw oyster, while others are horrified just at the thought of a fishy-tasting, phlem-like substance slithering down their throat. This is not to say that raw oysters are no good or that they are not a legitimate and valuable food source, it's simply a matter of taste. Having said this, let me say that I think one of the reasons why I got into Latin music in the first place, is because I detest the sound of trap drums or drum kit - especially when played by heavy-handed, tasteless percussionists who overplay. (The Brazilian trap drummers are the only ones who can make this obnoxious instrument sound appealing to me.) In fact, I'd like to know who invented this awful, one-man-band percussion concept, with the abrasive and irritating sound of the snare drum (a military drum that was designed to cut through gunfire) leading the charge, and the cymbals clinging and clanging away behind it at full tilt. I'd like to dance a guaguancó on his grave.


_Rockist__Scientist_, Friday, 12 December 2008 23:16 (eleven years ago) link


Tracy Michael Jordan Catalano (Jordan), Friday, 12 December 2008 23:17 (eleven years ago) link

I'd like to know who invented this awful, one-man-band percussion concept

He can thank vaudeville.

Indiespace Administratester (Hurting 2), Friday, 12 December 2008 23:43 (eleven years ago) link

this thread very informative

negotiable, Friday, 12 December 2008 23:44 (eleven years ago) link

one year passes...

Far too many Robert Wyatt tracks are spoiled by this...

My head is full of numbers from the internet! (Paul in Santa Cruz), Tuesday, 13 July 2010 23:11 (nine years ago) link

Don't think they are jazz tracks (from the little solo Wyatt I've heard anyway)...

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 15 July 2010 12:47 (nine years ago) link

hah just yesterday i bought End of an Ear for £3 quid in Fopp and was surprised (and pleased!) to find that its pretty much a free jazz alb (had never heard it before) - on one listen i didn't hear much 'constant' anything tho

Ward Fowler, Thursday, 15 July 2010 12:54 (nine years ago) link

What's awesome is people who walk around making "tsss-ts-ts-tsss-ts-ts" noises with their mouths!

kkvgz, Thursday, 15 July 2010 12:58 (nine years ago) link

You don't even have to like jazz to do that, I've found out.

kkvgz, Thursday, 15 July 2010 12:59 (nine years ago) link

iirc this thread is all-time

Brad C., Thursday, 15 July 2010 15:18 (nine years ago) link

for some reason this thread title is cracking me up

― n/a is just more of a character....in a genre polluted by clones (n/a), Friday, 12 December 2008 23:09 (1 year ago)

"Honey, do you hear that constant cymbal tapping? Can you go see what that is?"

surfer blood for oil (Hurting 2), Thursday, 15 July 2010 15:53 (nine years ago) link

What's awesome is people who walk around making "tsss-ts-ts-tsss-ts-ts" noises with their mouths!

I've caught myself doing this loads lately. I blame Jimmy Cobb.

Veðrafjǫrðr heimamaður (ecuador_with_a_c), Thursday, 15 July 2010 16:34 (nine years ago) link

one year passes...

lol at this thread. I assumed kate had started it

Armand Schaubroeck Ratfucker, Tuesday, 19 July 2011 00:54 (eight years ago) link

eight years pass...

great revive

ingredience (map), Wednesday, 18 December 2019 22:02 (two months ago) link

one month passes...


“I remember quite vividly listening to Black Sabbath, and it was the self-titled record,” Gaster recalls. “I think in particular it was the first song on Side Two, ‘Wicked World.’ Bill Ward opens up that tune by playing jazz time on the hi-hat. He’s playing that figure that you hear so many of those big-band guys play: ‘spang-a-lang, spang-a-lang.’ And that drives the band. There’s no backbeat; there’s no bass drum there in particular. It’s really just the sound of those hi-hats that’s pushing the band along.

j., Wednesday, 12 February 2020 17:41 (two weeks ago) link

lots of meat in that article, good stuff

Brad C., Wednesday, 12 February 2020 18:45 (two weeks ago) link

That seems like kind of an obvious observation about that tune though? And lots of drummers of the time and preceding Ward were incorporating jazz influence. Mitch Mitchell comes to mind as someone who did so way more than Ward.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 18:55 (two weeks ago) link

lmao at this thread

american bradass (BradNelson), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 18:56 (two weeks ago) link

xp I like the perspective the article gives on the early Sabbath sound ... it's not that what Ward was doing was so unusual or innovative in itself, it's just cool to see the jazz-influenced aspects spelled out in some detail

always glad to see this thread revived, truly an ILM classic

Brad C., Wednesday, 12 February 2020 19:08 (two weeks ago) link

The really funny thing is that it's actually a pretty deep question, with a lot of history behind the answer

change display name (Jordan), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 19:10 (two weeks ago) link

I like imagining that the thread title was created by someone who lived next door to a jazz practice space. "ARGH, WHAT'S WITH THAT CONSTANT CYMBAL TAPPING!"

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 19:18 (two weeks ago) link

When I hear people pine for the early days of ILM, I think of threads like this and laugh.

We're jumping on the road with @Nickelback this summer! (PBKR), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 22:45 (two weeks ago) link

I don't know of anyone who pines for the ILM/ILX of 2001 or 2002 tbf.

High profile Tom D (Tom D.), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 22:46 (two weeks ago) link

i do

j., Thursday, 13 February 2020 02:35 (two weeks ago) link

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