a classic case of the music critic ecosystem finding the previous album too late, then overreacting to the next record

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alpine static otm in MJ Lenderman

this is a classic case of the greater music critic ecosystem finding the previous cool/underground album too late to review it when it came out, then overreacting to the next record - which in this case is good! don't get me wrong, i like this one. but Boat Songs is better (imo).

I feel like this happens a lot

what are other classic cases?

surely High Violet by The National and Bon Iver s/t

more recent example: Arooj Aftab (Vulture Prince >>> Night Reign - again no shade, this is central, Night Reign is good, but it's no Vulture Prince)

corrs unplugged, Friday, 27 September 2024 17:46 (two weeks ago) link

l'rain

nxd, Friday, 27 September 2024 17:48 (two weeks ago) link

The 1975 with I like it when you sleep > Brief Inquiry

Murgatroid, Friday, 27 September 2024 17:50 (two weeks ago) link

each successive Replacements album after Let It Be seemed to get this reaction as their reputation accumulated and their quality drifted downwards.

Theracane Gratifaction (bendy), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:18 (two weeks ago) link

There was a lot of this in the 80s as bands jumped from indie labels to majors. The acclaim for Warehouse: Songs and Stories felt like critics catching up on HD's entire career right at the end.

There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:23 (two weeks ago) link

This is Xgau's shtick.

the talented mr pimply (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:28 (two weeks ago) link

All Boris previous albums > Pink.

Toshirō Nofune (The Seventh ILXorai), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:31 (two weeks ago) link

Queens of the Stone Age - S/t > Rated R

Toshirō Nofune (The Seventh ILXorai), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:31 (two weeks ago) link

when i read the early '90s Rolling Stone album guide this was also their schtick. they loved the dreaded "ambitious" or "sprawling" or "mature" albums.

omar little, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:31 (two weeks ago) link

xxp

omar little, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:31 (two weeks ago) link

Isis - Oceanic > Panopticon

Toshirō Nofune (The Seventh ILXorai), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:32 (two weeks ago) link

not sure I'm seeing this with Night Reign tbh -- Vulture Prince won a grammy lol. I agree that VP > NR though

rob, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:32 (two weeks ago) link

Initial reviews of Be Here Now were, in John Harris's words, unanimous with "truly amazing praise". According to Harris, "To find an album that had attracted gushing notices in such profusion, one had to go back thirty years, to the release of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band."[55]

...

Reviews in the British music press for (What's the Story) Morning Glory? had been generally negative. When it went on to become, in the words of Select editor Alexis Petridis, "this huge kind of zeitgeist-defining record", the music press was "baffled".[57] Petridis believed the initial glowing reviews of Be Here Now were a concession to public opinion.[57]

Kim Kimberly, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:32 (two weeks ago) link

The acclaim for Warehouse: Songs and Stories felt like critics catching up on HD's entire career right at the end.

― There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:23 (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Absolutely

I still say the reaction to Daydream Nation was given because the press missed out on Sister. But that may be a controversial POV

Toshirō Nofune (The Seventh ILXorai), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:34 (two weeks ago) link

xp rob fair point!

still feel like the reception of NR is overcompensating (less than for the Love in Exile collab though)

corrs unplugged, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:34 (two weeks ago) link

Phoebe Bridgers, Stranger in the Alps > Punisher

jaymc, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:34 (two weeks ago) link

definitely!

corrs unplugged, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:37 (two weeks ago) link

the-dream love vs money (ignored) vs love king (overrated)

flopson, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:38 (two weeks ago) link

re:

Initial reviews of Be Here Now were, in John Harris's words, unanimous with "truly amazing praise". According to Harris, "To find an album that had attracted gushing notices in such profusion, one had to go back thirty years, to the release of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band."[55]

can't tell if it's implied in this otm quote, but indeed Sgt. Pepper's is a classic example!

corrs unplugged, Friday, 27 September 2024 18:45 (two weeks ago) link

I don't think Revolver was overlooked.

There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 18:48 (two weeks ago) link

Ryan Adams: Whiskeytown stuff/Heartbreaker > Gold

Charlie Hair (C. Grisso/McCain), Friday, 27 September 2024 19:00 (two weeks ago) link

Jazmine Sullivan's Love Me Back > the two far more enthusiastically reviewed projects after that (which are still very good)

Paramore's self-titled > the last two albums

Kacey Musgraves' Same Trailer Different Park > Golden Hour

broadly true with Taylor Swift's early stuff vs. later stuff

some dude, Friday, 27 September 2024 19:13 (two weeks ago) link

I'd say Titanic Rising, but that one is also amazing. But yeah

imago, Friday, 27 September 2024 19:14 (two weeks ago) link

Leonard Cohen, no-one saw Various Positions for the masterpiece it was and went bananas (DYSWIDT?) for the markedly inferior I'm Your Man.

bored by endless ecstasy (anagram), Friday, 27 September 2024 19:15 (two weeks ago) link

L'Rain absolutely too yeah, with the bonus round of her actually-great 3rd album getting a muted reaction again

imago, Friday, 27 September 2024 19:17 (two weeks ago) link

"One Day It'll All Make Sense" reviews were penance for missing "Resurrection"

There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 19:19 (two weeks ago) link

The thing is--these usually become apparent over time--like everyone knows Let It Be is better than Don't Tell a Soul now, etc. However I don't think the acclaim for "I'm Your Man" had anything to do with critics realizing they missed ""Various Positions." People are still missing that one for the most part.

There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 19:22 (two weeks ago) link

speakerboxxx/the love below

hott ogo (voodoo chili), Friday, 27 September 2024 19:22 (two weeks ago) link

ha I was going to say Stankonia.

There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 19:25 (two weeks ago) link

Various Positions is a warm-up for IYM; he's bidding farewell to an old manner while not quite sure how he wants the new one to sound.

the talented mr pimply (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 27 September 2024 19:27 (two weeks ago) link

xp yeah but speakerboxxx/the love below won the grammy and came 1st in pazz & jop despite being markedly inferior to both stankonia and aquemini

hott ogo (voodoo chili), Friday, 27 September 2024 19:40 (two weeks ago) link

I have felt this way about every Bill Callahan record since Sometimes I Wish We Were An Eagle. It seemed like the NPR crowd caught on just when he was settling into a comfortable rut

Paul Ponzi, Friday, 27 September 2024 19:49 (two weeks ago) link

i've felt like this about all the Flaming Lips albums after a certain point

omar little, Friday, 27 September 2024 19:58 (two weeks ago) link

Flaming Lips and Mercury Rev

Toshirō Nofune (The Seventh ILXorai), Friday, 27 September 2024 20:00 (two weeks ago) link

I do like Deserters Songs but its not as great as the previous ones.
And Flaming Lips were better before The Soft Bulletin (and I liked that)

Toshirō Nofune (The Seventh ILXorai), Friday, 27 September 2024 20:02 (two weeks ago) link

xxxxpost But Stankonia topped Pazz & Jop so it was not ignored by the critical ecosystem

There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 20:04 (two weeks ago) link

yeah but stankonia was good!

hott ogo (voodoo chili), Friday, 27 September 2024 20:05 (two weeks ago) link

it's ok

There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 20:07 (two weeks ago) link

Speakerboxxx/The Love Below is a prime example of an act being so critically beloved that a weak work is given the extreme benefit of the doubt.

omar little, Friday, 27 September 2024 20:07 (two weeks ago) link

Tigermilk warranted all the hype that IYFS & TBWTAS received (due to label deals & better distribution).

Mrs. Ippei (Steve Shasta), Friday, 27 September 2024 20:10 (two weeks ago) link

i remember loving ATLiens in 1996 but everyone went nuts for Aquemini. maybe they are just both good. but i do remember thinking hey whatabout ATLiens that album was awesome...oh whatevernevermind.

scott seward, Friday, 27 September 2024 20:44 (two weeks ago) link

Atomizer > Songs About Fucking

Instead of create and send out, it pull back and consume (unperson), Friday, 27 September 2024 20:51 (two weeks ago) link

I remember when The Source took back its 5 Mic review of Aquemini, saying it didn't deserve the top score.

There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Friday, 27 September 2024 20:52 (two weeks ago) link

I’m not a music critic but I would guess this is sort of related to “the first one you heard is the best”

brimstead, Friday, 27 September 2024 21:08 (two weeks ago) link

cut copy (1st album >>> 2nd album)

brimstead, Friday, 27 September 2024 21:09 (two weeks ago) link

“Bright Like Neon Love received widespread acclaim from critics.”

lol ok nevermind

brimstead, Friday, 27 September 2024 21:10 (two weeks ago) link

I don't think that's a terrible example. "Widespread acclaim from critics" is boilerplate Wikipedia language. Bright Like Neon Love got generally good reviews from the publications that bothered to review it, but Metacritic shows only 9 reviews compared to 17 for In Ghost Colours. Pitchfork didn't even review BLNL, for instance.

jaymc, Friday, 27 September 2024 21:39 (two weeks ago) link

Which reminds me (I guess because Australia):

Tame Impala, Innerspeaker > Lonerism

jaymc, Friday, 27 September 2024 21:44 (two weeks ago) link

moses sumney - grae, praised to death over the superior prior record, aromanticism

hott ogo (voodoo chili), Friday, 27 September 2024 21:58 (two weeks ago) link

No one will agree, and one's an EP and the other a double, but I think Zen Arcade is wildly overrated (with a handful of great songs) because of critics late on Metal Circus. This happens all the time with filmmakers.

clemenza, Friday, 27 September 2024 22:02 (two weeks ago) link

Every thread demands Beatle content

Charlie Hair (C. Grisso/McCain), Monday, 30 September 2024 23:15 (two weeks ago) link

It most certainly does not.

pisspoor bung probe prog (Tom D.), Monday, 30 September 2024 23:17 (two weeks ago) link

Lol

The Clones of Dr. Slop (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 30 September 2024 23:59 (two weeks ago) link

I don't think that's a terrible example. "Widespread acclaim from critics" is boilerplate Wikipedia language. Bright Like Neon Love got generally good reviews from the publications that bothered to review it, but Metacritic shows only 9 reviews compared to 17 for In Ghost Colours. Pitchfork didn't even review BLNL, for instance.

― jaymc, Friday, 27 September 2024

As an Antipodean, my memory is the debut (and the EPs!) did well (critically/commercially) in Aus/NZ whereas the second one was the one that broke through to UK/US audiences.

etc, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 00:38 (two weeks ago) link

Burial actually would be a good example other than that I think he got better after the album. Pitchfork probably regret my timely-but-tepid review of the debut but the last time I listened to it I decided I had not in fact been underrating it.

Tim F, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 05:26 (two weeks ago) link

Pantha Du Prince is the dance music example. This Bliss >>>> everything since

boxedjoy, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 06:15 (two weeks ago) link

nilüfer yanya’s “my method actor”

secretary of state for fractal pluripotencies (||||||||), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 10:11 (two weeks ago) link

I sort of get the desire to include Revolver, in that the follow-up was instantly canonized as earth-shaking masterpiece among critical and fans alike, while Revolver (which was already doing so many of the same exciting things) was not. Especially in the US it's never had anything close to the pop-culture footprint of SPLHCB, or Rubber Soul for that matter. (See also: the Beatles Anthology doc, which devotes more time to the band's trips to Tokyo and the Philippines in this period.)

But it wasn't exactly ignored by critics, as the quotes prove. It's just that for the next one the praise went up to the megaton range. I'd say it doesn't fit.

the last visible dot (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 10:44 (two weeks ago) link

Yes, I think it's very US-centric to think that Revolver was somehow under appreciated but then was Pepper the first Beatles album released in the US with its tracklisting intact?

pisspoor bung probe prog (Tom D.), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 11:01 (two weeks ago) link

Yes.

the last visible dot (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 11:48 (two weeks ago) link

xpost - Well it doesn't really MATTER, technically. But I think ILX is one place where many people are professional, part-time or hobbyist critics/bloggers etc. And some times its interesting to talk about how sausages get made, y'know?

― url sweatshirt (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:15 PM (thirteen years ago) bookmarkflaglink

how sausage parties get made

― sarahel, Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:16 PM (thirteen years ago) bookmarkflaglink

il lavoro mi rovina la giornata (PBKR), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 12:02 (two weeks ago) link

yves tumor heaven to a tortured mind

ivy., Tuesday, 1 October 2024 13:14 (two weeks ago) link

There's a couple examples on the Pitchfork list today. Both Chief Keef and Bladee was made BNM this year, but it's 4NEM and Crest that made the list.

Frederik B, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 14:45 (two weeks ago) link

i feel like 4nem is the opposite, a mid-tier album in his discography released after a swelling of good will for the artist that was overly praised because it was the first one he dropped in a while with focus, pr push, a lead single, etc.

hott ogo (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 14:58 (two weeks ago) link

Burial got better when he realized his stuff worked better in single/EP format instead of albums

brimstead, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 14:59 (two weeks ago) link

alabaster deplume, gold

Aglet, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 16:33 (two weeks ago) link

^^ good one!

hott ogo (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 16:34 (two weeks ago) link

As per Then Play Long's review of 2 Unlimited's Real Things, it was a relative critical hit compared to No Limits

you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 16:37 (two weeks ago) link

Also ha 10,000 gecs is the first time I've found gecs any good

you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 16:41 (two weeks ago) link

attention before that. I’m struggling to think of a dance artist whose first album was unjustly ignored and second album over-praised.

― Tim F, Monday, 30 September 2024 18:07 (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Not overpraised as such, but Death in Vegas' Contino Sessions was one of the big UK critical favourites of 99 and that wasn't true of Dead Elvis in 97, when really they're similar in quality

Speaking of 99 albums that may have been overpraised, what about...
Shack - Waterpistol > H.M.S. Fable

you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 16:45 (two weeks ago) link

my problem with Burial in 2024 is that it's all gotten increasingly cheesier and sentimental to the point it's a bit laughable, the praise makes less sense to me with each release

boxedjoy, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 17:27 (two weeks ago) link

The latest Burial release is my favourite thing he'd done in years, while probably one of the least distinctive. Was it inevitable he'd eventually make a pretty straight hardcore record at some point? Having run out of ways to do anything around that but not actually that? Like it was probably on the cards since he first heard Sweet Harmony as a kid.

you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 17:33 (two weeks ago) link

Burial will always remain beyond reproach for me based on all of his early work and a fair bit of the later work. It seems I'm the one of few people who rates Antidawn very highly, but nothing after that has quite stuck for me, even when my initial impressions have been positive. Phoneglow, Streetlands and Dreamfear are great examples: I really liked all of them, but every time I felt myself hovering over the button to add them to my cart, I thought about the price + shipping, and ultimately couldn't bring myself to actually buy them. That would have been unthinkable behavior for me for everything up to Chemz / Dolphinz.

Sorry for the Burial derail, I don't need much encouragement. He's still one of my favorite artists ever

Paul Ponzi, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 18:24 (two weeks ago) link

I have to think a lot of the raves for mid-00s UGK and Three 6 Mafia projects was making up for critics ignoring their 90s output.

There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 18:55 (two weeks ago) link

also see Fishscale

There’s a Monster in my Vance (President Keyes), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 18:56 (two weeks ago) link

The acclaim for Fishscale -- an album I'll still stan for -- reminded me that I'd missed the two albums after Supreme Clientele, so I'm grateful.

the talented mr pimply (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:02 (two weeks ago) link

Were Stone Temple Pilots an example of this? I've never heard those first two LPs.

Wikipedia suggests early reviews for Appetite for Destruction were nothing much (despite its belated P&J appearance), which wasn't the case with the Use Your Illusions.

you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:04 (two weeks ago) link

Did Tiny Music got critical acclaim? If so, I think it might be more a case of the band changing up their sound to something that happened to be more critic-friendly (from post-grunge to neo-glam).

the last visible dot (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:12 (two weeks ago) link

(but perhaps a bit of "this shift actually started on the last album, but we sorta didn't notice that because we judged THAT one based on the FIRST album)

the last visible dot (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:13 (two weeks ago) link

I was thinking Purple getting more critical love/attention on release than Core

you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:18 (two weeks ago) link

Speaking of 99 albums that may have been overpraised, what about...
Shack - Waterpistol > H.M.S. Fable

It was impossible to hear Waterpistol at the time

Toshirō Nofune (The Seventh ILXorai), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:33 (two weeks ago) link

Wouldn't that make it a perfect example of 'finding it too late'?

you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:36 (two weeks ago) link

Through no fault of their own ofc

you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:36 (two weeks ago) link

till feel like the reception of NR is overcompensating (less than for the Love in Exile collab though)

You think Love In Exile collab praise was overcompensating? Can't see this; it's a very substantial album, and a different experience because equal partners (I didn't inspect many reviews, don't know if any were unseemly).

dow, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:51 (two weeks ago) link

It earns a LOT of praise, dunno how much would be too much.

dow, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:52 (two weeks ago) link

Premise of this thread is just another, "How dare noobs like something more than I did."

dow, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:54 (two weeks ago) link

The thing is--these usually become apparent over time--like everyone knows Let It Be is better than Don't Tell a Soul now, etc.
Yeah. And fans can take a while to catch up, like reviewers.

dow, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 19:59 (two weeks ago) link

in hindsight, the goodwill generated by dow's first post caused me to overreact to his second, third, and fourth posts

hott ogo (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 21:31 (two weeks ago) link

Uh-oh, sorry, the (misread?) Love In Exile comment just hit me rong. But I still think Keyes is right about how gradual the re-evaluation can be, and I for one still gradually go back and forth on some vintage works even now (Sgt. Pepper's for inst).

dow, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 21:54 (two weeks ago) link

no fear, was making a dumb joke

hott ogo (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 22:10 (two weeks ago) link

the weeknd 'dawn FM' (which made the pitchfork half-decade top 50) is a random but good one -- total criticbait in that it's a concept album made in conjunction w/ an underground auteur (0PN) who the critical community had been championing as cutting edge for years prior

in reality, it offers far fewer great songs than his previous three albums, especially the two immediately before it, all of which were largely ignored or reviled by critics. to boot, the album was also probably his first flop, or at least the likely signal of the end of his imperial phase. so it's an even weirder and more specific case of the critical community rallying behind an A list pop album at the exact time that the pop star's fans had the opposite reaction. in this case i don't really think there's a good reason for it, they just fell for the hooked worm. pitchfork put 'after hours' into that box of albums that gets a 7.9 but no whiff of institutional support -- someone i follow on twitter once called this "the coward's BNM" -- and would've been a far better album to champion

slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 22:11 (two weeks ago) link

The 1975 with I like it when you sleep > Brief Inquiry

― Murgatroid, Friday, September 27, 2024 1:50 PM (four days ago)

the 6.5 for 'i like it when you sleep' era (ILM maybe the only place where music critics were passionately arguing against the years long consensus that the 1975 were annoying and frivolous) slowly morphing into the "love it if we made it" as defining trump presidency anthem + 8.5 BNM for 'brief inquiry' era is definitely a prime example of watching this phenomenon happen in real time

slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 22:16 (two weeks ago) link

i also just need to register my disagreement w/ MJ lenderman being the example used in the OP. aside from the fact that lenderman was covered pretty heavily for a new solo indie rock guy in the 2020s, there's a pretty big difference in production quality and even songwriting concision on the new album to the point that i think people -- like me -- who prefer slicker production and pop oriented songwriting are going to respond differently to the decidedly more lo-fi and ramshackle album that preceded it. albums where the artist attempts to broaden their fanbase in a noticeable way & then succeeds make for more slippery inclusions into this canon

slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 1 October 2024 22:22 (two weeks ago) link

no fear, was making a dumb joke

― hott ogo (voodoo chili)

No, it was good! Just an apology from me to corrs as much as anybody for sounding off, esp. about thread premise, which is not totally wrong, though neither was I.

dow, Tuesday, 1 October 2024 22:55 (two weeks ago) link

as the provider of the example in the OP, i'll take this lull as an opportunity to post my follow-up comment in the Lenderman thread:

xxpost, i don't mean that as a shot at the greater music critic ecosystem or the critics themselves, btw. many people caught onto Boat Songs not long after it was released, it's just that so many people work for places that won't run a review 3 months after release date. people got to do year-end stories and blurbs for Top Whatever lists, but for many folks, this is really the first chance they've gotten to praise Jake and his music, so it's coming in hot.

also wanna say J0rdan's last post is a fair point and good perspective for me to hear.

alpine static, Wednesday, 2 October 2024 02:44 (one week ago) link

Pitchfork placed "God Save the Animals" at #23 of the best albums since 2020 so maybe Alex G fits this premise.

business, Wednesday, 2 October 2024 03:22 (one week ago) link

Jazmine Sullivan's Love Me Back > the two far more enthusiastically reviewed projects after that (which are still very good)

― some dude

seconded!!

+subtle (gaudio), Wednesday, 2 October 2024 04:35 (one week ago) link

I don’t know that reality show is a good example of that unless you mean specifically just my one enthusiastic review of it in pitchfork, which felt very lonely at the time and was knocked down from my suggested BNM

the one after it, definitely

ok (D-40), Wednesday, 2 October 2024 21:40 (one week ago) link

Grouper comes to mind, not that I find any of her stuff bad.

Western® with Bacon Flavor, Wednesday, 2 October 2024 22:00 (one week ago) link

Kurt Vile also

Western® with Bacon Flavor, Wednesday, 2 October 2024 22:00 (one week ago) link


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