Charlie Watts vs John Bonham

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I know what you’re thinking. You can’t compare these two giants. They have totally different styles.

Poll Results

OptionVotes
John Bonham 26
Charlie Watts 16


calstars, Friday, 22 July 2022 02:36 (three weeks ago) link

Nevertheless

calstars, Friday, 22 July 2022 02:38 (three weeks ago) link

Charlie

groovemaaan, Friday, 22 July 2022 05:02 (three weeks ago) link

John

change display name (Jordan), Friday, 22 July 2022 05:15 (three weeks ago) link

RINGO

Bonham's not even the best drummer in Led Zeppelin.

Tom D: I was in the army (Tom D.), Friday, 22 July 2022 06:35 (three weeks ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u7J4NpMkuI
Charlie Watts may have been an immaculate dresser but JOHN BONHAM HAD ONE OF THE BEST DRUM BEATS OF ALL TIME

corrs unplugged, Friday, 22 July 2022 07:40 (three weeks ago) link

could listen to this all day
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG0fNoj6r-Y

corrs unplugged, Friday, 22 July 2022 07:42 (three weeks ago) link

i remember having this exact debate with my college roommate in 1977. i said bonham he said charlie. my position has since reversed. not sure about his.

Thus Sang Freud, Friday, 22 July 2022 11:25 (three weeks ago) link

Bonham never hobbled a Zeppelin song the way Watts does "Get Off My Cloud"; on the other hand, Watts never perpetrated "Moby Dick".

Halfway there but for you, Friday, 22 July 2022 11:49 (three weeks ago) link

Watts' drums make "Get Off Of My Cloud." I never once thought he hobbled the track -- he's practically a third guitar.

Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 22 July 2022 11:54 (three weeks ago) link

Those snare rolls sound perfectly amateurish! And he does them every two bars!

Halfway there but for you, Friday, 22 July 2022 11:56 (three weeks ago) link

He does the same fill in "Ruby Tuesday, where it gets on my nerves just as much.

Halfway there but for you, Friday, 22 July 2022 11:57 (three weeks ago) link

Shambolic amateur hour

calstars, Friday, 22 July 2022 12:17 (three weeks ago) link

i have survived three john bonham drum solos. just sayin'.

Thus Sang Freud, Friday, 22 July 2022 12:24 (three weeks ago) link

haha never noticed those rolls, now I can't unhear it

corrs unplugged, Friday, 22 July 2022 12:25 (three weeks ago) link

Those snare rolls sound perfectly amateurish! And he does them every two bars!

― Halfway there but for you

"Amateurish" is description not criticism!

Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 22 July 2022 12:32 (three weeks ago) link

There are a bunch of Stones songs where it sounds like Charlie is hearing them for the first time.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 22 July 2022 12:44 (three weeks ago) link

Lol exactly

calstars, Friday, 22 July 2022 12:49 (three weeks ago) link

Bonham is the greatest rock drummer ever

I don’t think whatever it is that separates him from a mere ‘great’ rock drummer can be taught.

Master of Treacle, Friday, 22 July 2022 12:50 (three weeks ago) link

Rmde @ voting for Watts here

No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 22 July 2022 12:50 (three weeks ago) link

a case could be made that charlie is the greatest rock & roll drummer ever. and that the "& roll" piece can't be taught either. just listen to videos of the stones without him. and the new guy's no slouch.

Thus Sang Freud, Friday, 22 July 2022 12:56 (three weeks ago) link

Just for "Get Off Off My Cloud, "Paint It, Black," "Hand of Fate," and "Miss You," Watts deserves immortality.

Both drummers served the songwriters. I couldn't imagine swapping them out.

Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 22 July 2022 12:58 (three weeks ago) link

yup

Thus Sang Freud, Friday, 22 July 2022 13:00 (three weeks ago) link

I think “miss you” is prob Charlie’s finest performance, just excellent

calstars, Friday, 22 July 2022 13:04 (three weeks ago) link

neither of them were even fit to lug Elvin Jones gear onto stage for him. I suspect Watts would have probably admitted this, less said about the other one the better.

calzino, Friday, 22 July 2022 13:19 (three weeks ago) link

A case could be made that my Mom is the greatest rock & roll drummer ever. It just might not be a good one.

No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 22 July 2022 13:23 (three weeks ago) link

Calzino,what do you think of Sunny Murray?

No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 22 July 2022 13:25 (three weeks ago) link

if i could employ some meaningless drummer lingo i would say watts' feel is amazing and it's why i'm selecting him over bonham even though i like bonham a lot

watts doesn't hobble "get off of my cloud," he drives it

flamenco drop (BradNelson), Friday, 22 July 2022 13:26 (three weeks ago) link

those "amateurish" rolls are one of the biggest hooks in the song

flamenco drop (BradNelson), Friday, 22 July 2022 13:27 (three weeks ago) link

100%, watts' choices on that song take it from good to great.

theyre each the perfect drummers for their respective bands. but in the interest of science i am now imagining swapping them out. in an alternate universe i can imagine bonham holding it down in a mediocre, much-reduced version of the stones. its a lot harder for me to imagine watts keeping his head above water in LZ. so i guess thats a vote for bonzo.

nobody like my rap (One Eye Open), Friday, 22 July 2022 13:32 (three weeks ago) link

xxxp

he was one of the greatest, and he finished his life scraping by on benefits and making pennies bootlegging his own music.

calzino, Friday, 22 July 2022 13:32 (three weeks ago) link

I saw him play a couple of times and he was incredible. As for Watts and Bonham, the poll is about who you like not who's "better", surely?

Tom D: I was in the army (Tom D.), Friday, 22 July 2022 13:34 (three weeks ago) link

I saw Murray in Montreal in 02; among the best shows I ever saw. I didn't know what the end of his life was like; sad to hear it.

No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 22 July 2022 13:39 (three weeks ago) link

God those Bonham isolated tracks are insane. How does something so heavy have that much groove? He's just murdering that kit.

Love Watts too, obv.

doomposting is the new composting (PBKR), Friday, 22 July 2022 13:43 (three weeks ago) link

I only saw Sunny Murray once, in 1998, in a duo with Sonny Simmons. It was incredible to hear that sound in person. Among those in the audience was Robert Plant (he and Page were playing the United Center the next night). It’s all a rich tapestry.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 22 July 2022 13:46 (three weeks ago) link

Not gonna vote in this. Bonham couldn’t have done “Monkey Man” or “Rip This Joint,” Watts couldn’t have done “Levee” or “Achilles.”

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 22 July 2022 13:49 (three weeks ago) link

xps

it was mentioned in one of his obituaries, and as sad as it was to read that such a legend spent his last days in precarity and then a care home. Some of his contemporaries like Byard and Dolphy had much worse endings though.

calzino, Friday, 22 July 2022 13:52 (three weeks ago) link

"Shine a Light," "It's Only Rock n Roll," "You Can't Always Get What You Want" and "Happy" all don't feature Charlie, and none suffer for it, tbh. Or call attention to it, really. My favorite Charlie stuff might be the later stuff, when he goes into full wind up robo monkey mode. The last time I saw him play I was sort of shocked by how often he hit a crash on the third beat in the middle of a verse, which always throws me off a bit.

But Bonham was one of a kind and irreplaceable. I mean, first song, first album!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjpOxfbZ1eA

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 22 July 2022 13:52 (three weeks ago) link

neither of them were even fit to lug Elvin Jones gear onto stage for him.

Watts owned kits by some of his heroes. I don’t know if Elvin’s was among the sets, but he had gear used by Art Blakey, Sonny Greer, and Max Roach, among others. My understanding is that he communicated directly with their families to acquire these drums, as opposed to bidding on them at auctions.

Also, Elvin couldn’t do what Watts did and Watts couldn’t do what Elvin did.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 22 July 2022 13:53 (three weeks ago) link

"Shine a Light," "It's Only Rock n Roll," "You Can't Always Get What You Want" and "Happy" all don't feature Charlie, and none suffer for it, tbh.

Watts said of Kenney Jones on “Only Rock ‘n’ Roll,” “I don’t mind. Sounds like me, anyway.”

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 22 July 2022 13:55 (three weeks ago) link

If Tony Williams could play "Rise" with PiL I'm pretty sure Elvin could do what Watts did.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 22 July 2022 13:55 (three weeks ago) link

xxp
some of his drumming on the individualism of gil evans sounds like what watts does, although I don't really fuck with the stones tbh so I'm probably not best qualified to comment!

calzino, Friday, 22 July 2022 13:56 (three weeks ago) link

My opinion on this poll is a matter of record but tbh I don't see how the simplicity of the snare rolls on "Get Off of My Cloud" hobbles the simplicity of everything else. I always liked those as a primitive garage/punky sort of hook.

No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 22 July 2022 14:00 (three weeks ago) link

From a purely technical standpoint, Elvin had the facility to play what Watts played. I don’t believe he would have been able to make the last-second scattershot snare rolls in “Rip This Joint” as frightening as Watts did. I don’t believe he would have been able to elevate “Tumbling Dice” the way Watts did (with or without Jimmy Miller playing alongside). And why should he? That wasn’t Elvin’s approach, just as what Elvin did wasn’t Charlie’s approach.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 22 July 2022 14:04 (three weeks ago) link

Tony Williams came up loving rock ‘n’ roll, and was a stone Beatles fanatic (to the consternation of some of his collaborators/contemporaries in the ‘60s and ‘70s). Elvin appreciated certain rock ‘n’ roll from a distance as a listener, but was never as immersed in it as Tony.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 22 July 2022 14:07 (three weeks ago) link

I don't get technical about drumming I'm just a simpleton that knows what I like and I could listen to EJ's drumming on Flute Song/Hotel Me on a loop for hours.

calzino, Friday, 22 July 2022 14:27 (three weeks ago) link

xxxxxxxxxxp
if your mom were cindy blackman maybe.

Thus Sang Freud, Friday, 22 July 2022 15:54 (three weeks ago) link

It's an academic exercise, but what Watts is doing at its most difficult is sooooooo much simpler and easier than what Elvin is typically up to, which of course says more about Elvin than it does about Charlie, or why Charlie is still the best fit for the Stones, etc. Different animals.

Still, reminds me of an interview with Omar Hakim about recording "Brothers in Arms" for Dire Straits. They were struggling with Terry Williams in the studio, and after weeks (months?) of work they replaced him with Omar Hakim, who (predictably) nailed all his parts in two days. Talk about "Money for Nothing." Or hell, Darryl Jones in the Stones, who supposedly played everything with one finger on his audition to keep it simple. Rock is rock and jazz is jazz.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 22 July 2022 16:14 (three weeks ago) link

I like Charlie's playing a lot, and I'm all for drummer challops (I have argued that Ralph Molina is one of the greatest rock drummers of all time), but there is just zero case to be made whatsoever for Charlie Watts as a better drummer than John Bonham. Zero. I will die on this hill.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 22 July 2022 16:19 (three weeks ago) link

"Stairway to Heaven" would have been a too-long b-side without Bonham's timing.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Friday, 22 July 2022 22:15 (three weeks ago) link

Watts playing Stairway

calstars, Friday, 22 July 2022 22:25 (three weeks ago) link

I feel like this should be possible considering all the deep fake tech available

calstars, Friday, 22 July 2022 22:26 (three weeks ago) link

Sure, by making Watts sound like Bonham lol

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:06 (three weeks ago) link

will always take Stones over Zep (whom I love dearly, mind) but not entirely sure I’d be inclined listen to hours of just his drum tracks for the hell of it.

no one wants to twerk anymore (will), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:11 (three weeks ago) link

actually fuck that. maybe? lol

no one wants to twerk anymore (will), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:11 (three weeks ago) link

Bonham never hobbled a Zeppelin song the way Watts does "Get Off My Cloud"


^slander

no one wants to twerk anymore (will), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:16 (three weeks ago) link

(don’t love drums on Ruby tho)

no one wants to twerk anymore (will), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:17 (three weeks ago) link

i saw charlie leading a jazz band outdoors at lincoln center and there was one tune where he got turned around mid-song and never found his way back. i was a little embarrassed for him. i still pick him though.

Thus Sang Freud, Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:21 (three weeks ago) link

Bonham did have the advantage of dying young.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:22 (three weeks ago) link

best Charlie performances on RS records for me are on Some Girls/ Emotional/ Tattoo. probably has a lot to do w engineering but that’s my shit

no one wants to twerk anymore (will), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:31 (three weeks ago) link

John Bonham vs. Keith Moon is a much harder call. A coin toss, really.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:32 (three weeks ago) link

I spent years in my bedroom – literally fucking years – listening to Bonham's drums and trying to emulate his swing or his behind-the-beat swagger or his speed or power. Not just memorizing what he did on those albums but getting myself into a place where I would have the same instinctual direction as he had.

--Dave Grohl

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:33 (three weeks ago) link

eh, who cares

calstars, Saturday, 23 July 2022 01:36 (three weeks ago) link

John Bonham vs. Keith Moon is a much harder call. A coin toss, really.

The fuck

calstars, Saturday, 23 July 2022 01:37 (three weeks ago) link

i saw charlie leading a jazz band outdoors at lincoln center and there was one tune where he got turned around mid-song and never found his way back. i was a little embarrassed for him. i still pick him though.

I once saw Cindy Blackman completely lose the plot during a solo with Pharoah Sanders’ band in the mid 90s.

but also fuck you (unperson), Saturday, 23 July 2022 01:39 (three weeks ago) link

The fuck

Indeed

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 23 July 2022 01:41 (three weeks ago) link

Keith Moon vs. John Bonham POLL

Halfway there but for you, Saturday, 23 July 2022 01:58 (three weeks ago) link

Keith Moon vs. John Bonham POLL🕸

Ugh
Sorry Keith doesn’t belong here

calstars, Saturday, 23 July 2022 02:01 (three weeks ago) link

Good discussion in that thread.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 23 July 2022 02:04 (three weeks ago) link

_Bonham never hobbled a Zeppelin song the way Watts does "Get Off My Cloud"_


^slander


libel! or is there something else for the internet

no one wants to twerk anymore (will), Saturday, 23 July 2022 03:03 (three weeks ago) link

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

System, Sunday, 31 July 2022 00:01 (two weeks ago) link

I loved reading this tribute to Charlie, especially Weinberg's:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/aug/26/stewart-copeland-max-weinberg-on-charlie-watts-rolling-stones

birdistheword, Sunday, 31 July 2022 00:23 (two weeks ago) link

I prefer Keith over Bonham, but this is horseshit, I love all three and they all bring something unique to the table. I don't want Bonham playing behind the Stones just as I wouldn't want Watts playing behind Zeppelin - changing any of the drummers like that would have fucked up the alchemy behind those records and those songs.

birdistheword, Sunday, 31 July 2022 00:26 (two weeks ago) link

that doesn't mean mustard is better than stubbs bbq sauce
It is though.

Loud guitars shit all over "Bette Davis Eyes" (NYCNative), Sunday, 31 July 2022 05:00 (two weeks ago) link

Otm

No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Sunday, 31 July 2022 05:11 (two weeks ago) link

Bonham, and it isn't even close

Muad'Doob (Moodles), Sunday, 31 July 2022 06:45 (two weeks ago) link

birdistheword otm

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Sunday, 31 July 2022 10:32 (two weeks ago) link

"Amateurish" is description not criticism!

Right, "hobbled" was criticism.

Halfway there but for you, Sunday, 31 July 2022 14:06 (two weeks ago) link

Underrated Watts performance: "Jigsaw Puzzle".
Underrated Bonham performance: "South Bound Saurez" or "Ozone Baby"

Halfway there but for you, Sunday, 31 July 2022 14:10 (two weeks ago) link

"Jigsaw Puzzle" may be my favorite Stones song, and Charlie is one of the main reasons why. Those little grace notes just before the 1 and the 3 are so perfect in how they sustain and advance the narrative.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Sunday, 31 July 2022 14:57 (two weeks ago) link

That's another song where the tempo is all over the place. But I think if anything that's where Charlie's "swing" comes in: it can't be easy to keep things together in such a famously shambling band! (Oddly, the Who might be the opposite example; Keith Moon can't have been easy to play with.)

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 31 July 2022 16:09 (two weeks ago) link

That's another song where the tempo is all over the place.


It’s a feature, not an issue

calstars, Sunday, 31 July 2022 16:25 (two weeks ago) link

(Oddly, the Who might be the opposite example; Keith Moon can't have been easy to play with.)

He could sometimes be difficult to play with; Entwistle sometimes talked about pulling a cymbal aside in order to find the beat by looking at Moon's feet. But he and Townshend developed their approaches so that they would work with Moon's (also, his volume was such that it necessitated the invention of the Marshall Stack). While there are few instances of Keith playing outside of the Who, no one on Labelle's "Miss Otis Regrets" or Mike Heron's "Warm Heart Pastry" (which also has Townshend, Ronnie Lane, and John Cale) sounds flummoxed by Moon's playing.

Retrospectively, Townshend has said "I didn't think much of him as a drummer," largely because the role of strict timekeeping fell to Pete. He never had the opportunity with Keith to play single-note solos against a solid backbeat, and just about all of Pete's choices for drummers in his solo projects and for the Who were slightly-behind-the-beat backbeat specialists.

And to bring it back to Watts,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2Z_FO0uao8

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Sunday, 31 July 2022 16:32 (two weeks ago) link

Before I got to Tarfumes on Pete as timekeeper etc., was thinking about seeing Stones in Memphis, 1975----Robert Palmer's coverage incl. some excellent points:

Jim Dickinson, the Memphis musician who played piano on “Wild Horses,” burst into the press box from backstage, where he’d obviously been having a good time. “Listen to that rhythm section,” he crowed. “Now that they’ve got Ollie Brown to keep time, Charlie doesn’t have to, and he’s playing. Wyman too. I’ve heard ’em cook some fast jazz in the studio just warming up, and then they start playing Stones songs and it’s back to the gorilla music. But this is great.”
...Brown’s cowbell and timbales reproduced the special lift the overdubbed percussion tracks have always given key Stones songs. His solidity enabled Watts to vary his cymbal sound and introduce cross-rhythms... Richards, whose rhythm guitar parts are the backbone of every Stones rocker, had turned virtually all the lead work over to Wood. “Get Off My Cloud,” “Heartbreaker” and a few other tunes had taken on an 8/8 rhythm feel with salsa flavoring...
...Back at the hotel, Wyman commented that he liked the audience and Furry Lewis, then left with Memphis R&B bassist “Duck” Dunn. Charlie Watts sat down and, asked how he liked playing with Ollie Brown, replied, “Oh, he’s a great player. Great. We used a percussionist from Billy’s band before, on a European tour, but that was more spontaneous. This time we decided to do it right and rehearsed intensively.” Did Ollie free him to experiment more? “I don’t know, I just play.”
But Watts really wanted to talk about jazz. In New York he’d been impressed by avant-garde pianist Cecil Taylor, swing-era musicians Roy Eldridge and Paul Quinichette and drummer Roy Haynes. “Every time people tell me I’m good,” he said, “I . . . like it at first — anybody does — but then I think about people like Roy [Haynes], who played with Charlie Parker and John Coltrane and is still playing in clubs. You know, when I started I played Dixieland, and then I went on to bands that were trying to re-create the Johnny Hodges and Duke Ellington small-band sound from the Thirties. I worked up to playing Fifties-period Thelonious Monk. All the time I thought that what I’d eventually be doing, what I wanted to be doing, was playing with a trio in a cellar for a few junkies.” A reporter who’d been looking for an opening blurted, “What do you think of American music?” Watts stared with his huge, liquid eyes and snorted softly, “I don’t know about anything but American music,” he said. “None of us do, really. And what I like about American music is basically black music. That’s not to say white people can’t play it, but to me, American music is black music.”

Whole thing is well worth reading. (The only thing I disagree with Palmer about is that the audience did get into the Meters, but were just too stoned and otherwise baked to dance [we kept falling over, or into each other], having sat in Memphis Memorial Stadium July heat since noon, at least.) https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/stones-visit-memphis-193525/

dow, Sunday, 31 July 2022 18:06 (two weeks ago) link

even as somebody who has a lot of time for rolling stones records, i feel like the effect of charlie watts' drumming is being oversold here. as it was following his death, when i constantly had to hear that watts was "actually a jazz drummer."

do we really need to bend over backyards to make it seem like he had this grand, mystical vision of impersonating a shitty drummer in order to serve the music? isn't it okay to just admit that he's a shitty drummer who was in the right place at the right time, and that it's a happy coincidence that it ended up working so well? seems a lot easier to me

budo jeru, Sunday, 31 July 2022 18:10 (two weeks ago) link

xpost vary his cymbal sound and introduce cross-rhythms... To put it mildly! He was flying through the rest of the music at times, but/and it all worked that way--Billy Preston was a good listener, for instance.

dow, Sunday, 31 July 2022 18:11 (two weeks ago) link

A rock drummer who learned from jazz, I'd say. He talked elsewhere about working early on with "eccentric old men" who were really into Mingus, for instance.

dow, Sunday, 31 July 2022 18:14 (two weeks ago) link

for instance

dow, Sunday, 31 July 2022 18:15 (two weeks ago) link

I’m so happy my dumb ass question got so much discussion going

calstars, Sunday, 31 July 2022 18:40 (two weeks ago) link

Prediction : Bonham

calstars, Sunday, 31 July 2022 18:42 (two weeks ago) link

Thanks for posting that, dow. Watts also mentioned digging Cecil (and Ornette) in an early '90s TV interview. And Roy Haynes is still out there playing. I saw him in 2018 and was completely blown away.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Sunday, 31 July 2022 19:12 (two weeks ago) link

And thank you, Tarfumes,for making me think of that concert, and leading me to that piece, which I hadn't seen before---here's another one I just came across, haven't read the whole thing yet:

In a previously unpublished interview from 2013, Watts goes deep into his favorite drummers, what the Stones do better than the Beatles, and outlasting almost every band
By MIKAL GILMORE

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/charlie-watts-rolling-stones-drummers-beatles-jazz-1216494/

dow, Sunday, 31 July 2022 23:35 (two weeks ago) link

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

System, Monday, 1 August 2022 00:01 (two weeks ago) link

Hell yeah
The people have spoken

calstars, Monday, 1 August 2022 00:03 (two weeks ago) link

So many Watts apologists itt

calstars, Monday, 1 August 2022 00:05 (two weeks ago) link

Charlie Watts b.1941
John Bonham b.1948

I think this is the big difference.

earlnash, Monday, 1 August 2022 01:47 (two weeks ago) link

Uh no

calstars, Monday, 1 August 2022 02:02 (two weeks ago) link

xp i don't really buy into that but if anything it's when they died

mookieproof, Monday, 1 August 2022 02:29 (two weeks ago) link


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