this is really cool to see a bunch of metal fans ganging up on a POC for bringing up concerns about racism
Sorry, but this generalization equating all black metal with white supremacy is as daft as equating all hip hop and grime with misogyny, homophobia and anti-Semitism.
as a hip hop fan for years and years, these things are enormous problems within hip hop and have been for decades, and with Jay Electronic and Wiley this week we've seen how deeply embedded they are so I'm not sure what point you're making
Plus you know damn fine well neanderthal isn't racist and neither are the metal fans on ilm.
i'm glad we've learned absolutely nothing about whiteness and ingrained racism in the last few months.
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:27 (three years ago) link
Everyone has racism in them period
ganging up on a POC for bringing up concerns about racism
Is this really what we're doing? Have any of us dismissed the obvious ubiquity of racist elements within the black metal scene? The rolling metal threads are rife with discussions about this.
― pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:29 (three years ago) link
You're right. That's why my position on black metal is and will forever remain NTPO - Nazi Till Proven Otherwise. I'm perfectly willing to accept proof that a given black metal band is not NS, but I go in assuming that they are. Over the last ~30 years, enough black metal bands have been exposed as Nazis, white nationalists, or whatever term you choose to apply that for a new band to emerge working in that style implies that they're at a minimum, OK with tying themselves to the genre despite its sketchy history. So...NTPO.
― but also fuck you (unperson), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:31 (three years ago) link
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/1999/black-metal-spreads-neo-nazi-hate-message
maybe the Southern Poverty Law Center can get around to updating this 20-year-old article if they have nothing better to do
― the burrito that defined a generation, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:33 (three years ago) link
idk people are being defensive when they don't need to be?
― sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:35 (three years ago) link
The rolling metal threads are rife with discussions about this.
yup, much as issues of abuse/cancellation are inevitably a recurring part of all the rolling emo threads.
― the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:36 (three years ago) link
and the defensiveness comes across as attacking DJP -- like, this is kinda textbook white fragility ... i think?
― sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:37 (three years ago) link
yeah i have no idea how this isn't evident how this is coming across
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:38 (three years ago) link
If I read them correctly, DJP seems to argue that the genre of BM is racist/white supremacist from the get-go, i.e. that this is (unalteringly) built into the DNA of the genre, so to speak. Quite clearly, that is something not everyone would agree on (I don’t think I do, although I can see certain points in favour of it), but at least it is a question which could give rise to an interesting discussion and perhaps take this thread in a more constructive direction (unless it has been hashed out a million times before - I don’t think I’ve seen it done exactly like this)
― Mule, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:38 (three years ago) link
It’s worth noting (yet again) that not all of us are American or even from countries with an imperialist/colonialist past, which is bound to have a bearing on our approach to these questions.
― pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:40 (three years ago) link
(I suppose Neanderthal - although he is not here - has a certain right to be defensive, given the original post - xpost)
― Mule, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:40 (three years ago) link
(please use he/him for me)
― shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:40 (three years ago) link
Sure, will do. Sorry. Wasn’t quite sure.
― Mule, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:42 (three years ago) link
― pomenitul, Monday, July 27, 2020 12:40 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
neither were many of the most prominent national socialist black metal artists iirc
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:47 (three years ago) link
I for one am shocked that white people are replying to a thread about black metal. did no one consider the optics?!
― the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:51 (three years ago) link
cap'n save a BM
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:52 (three years ago) link
Should’ve added ‘wealthy’.xp
― pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:52 (three years ago) link
whatever it's just a continuation of #onethread where one corner of ILX yells at the other until we all get depressed, mad or terminally snarky (or some combo thereof)
― the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:53 (three years ago) link
#onestrugglesession
― pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:55 (three years ago) link
FPd myself for talking about The ILX Discourse, the most boring topic yet known to humans, sorry everyone
― the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:58 (three years ago) link
no the most boring topic is The Beatles
― sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 18:03 (three years ago) link
T/S: The ILX Discourse vs. Pizza
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 27 July 2020 18:04 (three years ago) link
― the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, July 27, 2020 10:51 AM (thirteen minutes ago)
It's not the fact that you and the other white ppl taking your position are replying -- it's the way in which you are replying ...
― sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 18:07 (three years ago) link
xp - I would rather have more polls about The ILX Discourse than about pizza ... I feel like we've polled everything there is to poll about pizza
― sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 18:08 (three years ago) link
I mean I guess I could take a stab at "proving" I'm not actually feeling defensive on the internet but my records show no one has ever actually succeeded at doing this
― the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 18:10 (three years ago) link
five black metal threads have 1-2 new answers, other than the one where we talk about how racist emperor and darkthrone were. not exactly a sea change
― the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, July 27, 2020 7:46 AM (three hours ago)
like, I can see this post being intended as sympathetic to DJP, but it also reads as defensive / a bit dismissive ...
― sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 18:13 (three years ago) link
there's only one person who is really qualified to answer this question and that's the guy who revived all the threads
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Monday, 27 July 2020 18:16 (three years ago) link
that's true. Neanderthal, you had a message for us?
― the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 18:17 (three years ago) link
To be clear, "Neanderthal got drunk" does answer my question
― shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 27 July 2020 18:21 (three years ago) link
xp crut: ilx - where being qualified to answer questions is not a criterion for participating in the discourse
― sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 18:28 (three years ago) link
I started this thread because, for what I hope would be obvious reasons, my first reaction upon seeing what felt like a wall o' black metal wasn't "oh, let me see what is happening on each of these threads"; it was "ugh gross", particularly after going onto the "best original black metal band" thread and seeing the collective handwaving we all participated in re: what was going on with those bands as they were building their canon. The defensive responses were expected because they always happen no matter how gently the topic is broached, which is a large part of why I didn't bother to be gentle about it.
― shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 27 July 2020 19:09 (three years ago) link
― pomenitul, Monday, July 27, 2020 10:40 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink
can i just say i hate this, literally every single time this sentiment gets posted, i fucking hate it
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Monday, 27 July 2020 19:31 (three years ago) link
Suit yourself.
I also get triggered when I read Russian apologist tankie bullshit on ILX, but what are you gonna do, context trumps all.
― pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 19:34 (three years ago) link
It’s worth noting (yet again) that not all of us are American or even from countries with an imperialist/colonialist past, which is bound to have a bearing on our approach to these questions.― pomenitul, Monday, July 27, 2020 12:40 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglinkneither were many of the most prominent national socialist black metal artists iirc― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, July 27, 2020 1:47 PM bookmarkflaglink
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, July 27, 2020 1:47 PM bookmarkflaglink
― shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 27 July 2020 19:37 (three years ago) link
I then wrote that I should've added 'wealthy'.
― pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 19:38 (three years ago) link
huh?
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Monday, 27 July 2020 19:40 (three years ago) link
i.e. 'or even from wealthy countries or countries with an imperialist/colonialist past' – sorry, that wasn't entirely clear.
― pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 19:41 (three years ago) link
this is a good one to let go― lol tea partiers and their fat fingers (HI DERE), Monday, November 1, 2010 10:11 AM (nine years ago)
― lol tea partiers and their fat fingers (HI DERE), Monday, November 1, 2010 10:11 AM (nine years ago)
― sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 19:42 (three years ago) link
is Norway not wealthy or imperialist enough
― the state is bad (Left), Monday, 27 July 2020 19:49 (three years ago) link
think pom's point is that he is from romania (poor country that never did much colonising, although WAS a central power #neverforget ;D) but BM is from wealthy, aristocratic norway, but tbh i sort of think that a lot of the good BM right now is rightly interrogating questions of privilege and origin. yeah there are still racists in the scene and yeah there always have been but the same can be said for a lot of scenes and i don't believe white supremacy is encoded into BM. and tbh not even 90's norwegian BM was all done by white kids anyway - for example yusuf parvez aka dodheimsgard was there from close to the outset and he's still making amazing music now and then
― imago, Monday, 27 July 2020 19:56 (three years ago) link
shit it was bulgaria that was a central power, sorry. ok romania completely clear haha
― imago, Monday, 27 July 2020 19:57 (three years ago) link
no wait i've just checked world war 2. uh-oh
― imago, Monday, 27 July 2020 19:58 (three years ago) link
*yusaf parvez even
― imago, Monday, 27 July 2020 19:59 (three years ago) link
Unperson did this nice interview with Iranian Zoroastrian BM artist Vizaresa, who records as the (v good) one-man band Akvan: https://daily.bandcamp.com/features/akvan-interview
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Monday, 27 July 2020 20:09 (three years ago) link
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Monday, July 27, 2020 2:16 PM bookmarkflaglink
I don't have an explanation other than "I am bored and lonely due to sheltering in place and spend a lot of time listening to music, so I often bump threads or post things that I feel like talking about" because I try to avoid Facebook before bed and I just want to chat with people. last night, I just so happened to be listening to black metal albums for the first time in eons, which lead me to start searching for mentions of these albums or bands in threads to look at discussion, possibly even find a few other reccs, and then wound up bumping the threads while I was in them, either due to a quote, or do to just wanting to post on the album.
There was definitely no underlying theme in my reviving multiple posts other than my usual "over-enthusiastic" schtick, though I can see how the optics look, especially after reading OP. But I didn't intend to send any kind of message like that, or be insensitive - but I know intent doesn't really matter, so I apologize, DJP. I don't want to make anybody feel uncomfortable posting here or cause duress.
― Lady Antibody (Neanderthal), Monday, 27 July 2020 20:12 (three years ago) link
romania completely clear
Not 'completely clear' at all – antisemitism and anti-Roma sentiment in particular are indelible stains upon our history – but different enough from the usual (mainly Western) imperialist suspects to merit a less reductive lens than that afforded by American discourses on race, which have their limits when applied beyond the US's borders. Contemporary American (and British) discourses on the relationship between aesthetics and politics also tend to favour the latter almost systematically, and I for one am uncomfortable with that.
― pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 20:15 (three years ago) link
xpost also it was a fair question for DJP to ask
― Lady Antibody (Neanderthal), Monday, 27 July 2020 20:18 (three years ago) link
sarahell and m@tt otm as well.
― Lady Antibody (Neanderthal), Monday, 27 July 2020 20:30 (three years ago) link