Why have half the black metal threads on ILM been revived at the same time?

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shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 27 July 2020 14:39 (one week ago) link

Stans

À la recherche du scamps perdu (Noodle Vague), Monday, 27 July 2020 14:41 (one week ago) link

standerthals

trapped out the barndo (crüt), Monday, 27 July 2020 14:41 (one week ago) link

As ILX's caretaker and undertaker, Neanderthal is also its appointed thread-reviver. There's a thematic logic to his grave digging.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 14:42 (one week ago) link

everyone returning to Taylor's key influences obv

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 14:42 (one week ago) link

Is the theme “we took a poll and we’ve decided black lives have mattered for long enough”?

shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 27 July 2020 14:42 (one week ago) link

tbf they're not all publicly-avowed nazis

À la recherche du scamps perdu (Noodle Vague), Monday, 27 July 2020 14:45 (one week ago) link

five black metal threads have 1-2 new answers, other than the one where we talk about how racist emperor and darkthrone were. not exactly a sea change

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 14:46 (one week ago) link

Check this out:

https://bindrunerecordings.bandcamp.com/album/overgrow-to-overthrow-compilation

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 14:48 (one week ago) link

RABM is actually starting to get good

Kate (rushomancy), Monday, 27 July 2020 14:51 (one week ago) link

not to downplay anything but tbh at this point in American metal I think the righteous now outnumber the nazis (or even just the vaguely o_0) by a fair margin

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 14:57 (one week ago) link

how do we deradicalise these freaks

||||||||, Monday, 27 July 2020 14:59 (one week ago) link

We force-feed them Folklore until they vote for Joe Biden.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 15:00 (one week ago) link

black metal matters

lumen (esby), Monday, 27 July 2020 15:07 (one week ago) link

this might make me cap'n save a BM but whatever, ime(stimation) very little of the currently existent white supremacy / anti-semitism / xenophobia etc seems to be coming from new acts, much more often they're offshoots of long-established degenerates who have admittedly been humored (and in some cases revered) for far too long. more of the vital metal being made is coming from a genuine left-wing perspective than probably ever before. the stigma is definitely justified but I am hopeful the fash will be largely stomped out of BM in the coming years

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 15:09 (one week ago) link

Yep, especially in North America, as you pointed out in your previous post.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 15:10 (one week ago) link

I mean, that's fine on the one hand and there's a good part of me that is sympathetic to and interested in the sonic palette associated with black metal but on the other hand if a bunch of self-proclaimed left-leaning designers decided to incorporate the Confederate flag into their clothing, I would question very strongly what identification they were making with that pattern, what they felt they were promoting/propagating with that artistic choice, and what the consumers buying it felt they were promoting/propagating, particularly if those same consumers said things like "I don't agree with everything the Confederacy did but they had a lot of influence on the South and you have to admit their uniforms and iconography are great"

shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 27 July 2020 16:17 (one week ago) link

That's… not a good comparison, sorry.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 16:18 (one week ago) link

White supremacy was never embedded into the very sound of black metal from the get-go. Unlike, say, anti-Christianity.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 16:19 (one week ago) link

You guys can continue to tell yourselves this but that doesn't make it true.

shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 27 July 2020 16:20 (one week ago) link

What do you make of this guy?

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/may/22/zeal-ardor-black-metal-bluesman-brands-fans

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 16:27 (one week ago) link

DJP is on record as a Z&A nonfan iirc

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 16:29 (one week ago) link

Ah, fair enough.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 16:30 (one week ago) link

this might make me cap'n save a BM but whatever, ime(stimation) very little of the currently existent white supremacy / anti-semitism / xenophobia etc seems to be coming from new acts, much more often they're offshoots of long-established degenerates who have admittedly been humored (and in some cases revered) for far too long. more of the vital metal being made is coming from a genuine left-wing perspective than probably ever before. the stigma is definitely justified but I am hopeful the fash will be largely stomped out of BM in the coming years

― the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, July 27, 2020 10:09 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

or...maybe the younger dudes are just smarter and cannier about what they let slip?

Like I know for a fact Tanner from press darlings Obsequiae (maybe they aren't black metal? Folk metal? Narnian?) has uhhhh less than progressive political views to say the least

if the Led Zep and Ice Cube discourse(s) have taught us anything, and to paraphrase bill callahan, all genres have a past they don't care to mention. modern BM bands are at least making a go of countering it and don't deserve any more side-eye than anyone else for doing so. especially as there's no fucking money in it.

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 16:32 (one week ago) link

Like I know for a fact Tanner from press darlings Obsequiae (maybe they aren't black metal? Folk metal? Narnian?) has uhhhh less than progressive political views to say the least

if they're afraid to share their views, that's a mark of progress too! I bet a lot of prominent artists have dodgy views they're canny enough to stfu about

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 16:32 (one week ago) link

Black Metal musician “Tanner”.

Boring, Maryland, Monday, 27 July 2020 16:33 (one week ago) link

i am fairly confident that the majority of the BM bands i like currently are pretty unambiguously progressive and i know for a fact that at least one of them (jute gyte) recently raised over $1500 for naacp legal funds

imago, Monday, 27 July 2020 16:33 (one week ago) link

Like I know for a fact Tanner from press darlings Obsequiae (maybe they aren't black metal? Folk metal? Narnian?) has uhhhh less than progressive political views to say the least

Huh, they contributed to that anti-racist comp I linked to upthread (not saying I don't believe you btw).

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 16:34 (one week ago) link

And if we're going to talk about black metal's purported DNA, I don't think Venom has ever stood for racism in any shape or form. Correct me if I'm wrong.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 16:35 (one week ago) link

i get where you're coming from, djp. idk. it's a hard thing. i respect you a lot and i acknowledge the damage black metal has done and continues to do, and i still listen to a fair amount of black metal. if you're asking for me to quit talking about black metal on this board, well, what you're asking for is fair and reasonable and i can't, personally, do it. that's all i can tell you.

Kate (rushomancy), Monday, 27 July 2020 16:35 (one week ago) link

Irreconcilable cultural differences and/or misunderstandings are probably at play here too, but I do respect your stance, DJP.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 16:37 (one week ago) link

if they're afraid to share their views, that's a mark of progress too! I bet a lot of prominent artists have dodgy views they're canny enough to stfu about

― the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, July 27, 2020 11:32 AM (five seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

in that case hats off to black metal well done lads!

pomenitul -

He's been a member of the neofolk band Blood and Sun: http://www.citypages.com/music/blood-and-sun-life-is-a-dangerous-thing-6650548

here's the book on them

Luke Tromiczak of "neofolk" band Blood And Sun is a known fascist affiliate and cosplay artist who likes dressing as a member of the SA. pic.twitter.com/tFxAD6fMGS

— Sam Tyler (@RadNewsMedia) December 16, 2016

I have more firsthand accounts from a friend of mine who used to be in Obsequiae not for ILX

:(

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 16:44 (one week ago) link

For the record, I did not say "stop talking about black metal". I asked "Why have so many black metal threads been revived all at once, particularly now?" and I said why I was asking, which is that it feels pointedly hostile given both what the black metal scene started as, the elements that still exist within it, and what's currently happening in the wider cultural perspective.

I mean, the Zeal and Ardor guy started his project because someone on Reddit dared him to make a mashup of "black metal" and "nigger music", for fuck's sake.

shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 27 July 2020 16:59 (one week ago) link

the answer to your original question is 'neanderthal got drunk' fyi

imago, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:00 (one week ago) link

Sorry, 4chan not Reddit

shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:00 (one week ago) link

I mean, the Zeal and Ardor guy started his project because someone on Reddit dared him to make a mashup of "black metal" and "nigger music", for fuck's sake.

― shout-out to his family (DJP)

yeah, i don't know what the hell he was doing on 4chan! z&a definitely does come out of an extremely toxic place that its frontman was embedded in.

sorry for misreading what you were saying. i struggle myself trying to figure out whether certain people say certain things out of ignorance or hostility, and whether it even matters (to which, more and more, the answer i'm reaching is "no").

Kate (rushomancy), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:05 (one week ago) link

just asking: does gagneux being himself black alter how repellent the z&a creation-legend is, iyo?

imago, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:06 (one week ago) link

...

shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:08 (one week ago) link

maybe the revivalist was inspired by the time I recently revived a half dozen threads about the band The Police as an homage to ZS/Karl Malone's #onethread concept

sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:08 (one week ago) link

What I find striking about Z&A is that he specifically took up that heinous challenge in order to turn it against the 4channers: 'The ultimate fuck-you is actually making something good out of such a silly suggestion' (link).

This recent piece of his, re: George Floyd, is also quite interesting:

https://www.kerrang.com/features/zeal-ardors-manuel-gagneux-we-need-to-boringly-homogenise-rather-than-spectacularly-separate/

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:10 (one week ago) link

Paul Celan's entire oeuvre is predicated on the notion that poetry is still possible for a Jewish Holocaust survivor whose mother tongue happens to be German, a language that 'had to pass through its own answerlessness, pass through frightful muting, pass through the thousand darknesses of deathbringing speech'.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:15 (one week ago) link

must be a very edifying thread for DJP

sigh. sorry, djp. you don't deserve to be lectured like this. what you're saying is right and authentic.

Kate (rushomancy), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:17 (one week ago) link

Ok, then let's abandon the possibility of dialogue like we always do.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:20 (one week ago) link

it's horrible when you start a thread and people reply to it

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:21 (one week ago) link

I asked "Why have so many black metal threads been revived all at once, particularly now?" and I said why I was asking, which is that it feels pointedly hostile given both what the black metal scene started as, the elements that still exist within it, and what's currently happening in the wider cultural perspective.

Sorry, but this generalization equating all black metal with white supremacy is as daft as equating all hip hop and grime with misogyny, homophobia and anti-Semitism.
Plus you know damn fine well neanderthal isn't racist and neither are the metal fans on ilm.

Oor Neechy, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:21 (one week ago) link

this is really cool to see a bunch of metal fans ganging up on a POC for bringing up concerns about racism

Sorry, but this generalization equating all black metal with white supremacy is as daft as equating all hip hop and grime with misogyny, homophobia and anti-Semitism.

as a hip hop fan for years and years, these things are enormous problems within hip hop and have been for decades, and with Jay Electronic and Wiley this week we've seen how deeply embedded they are so I'm not sure what point you're making

Plus you know damn fine well neanderthal isn't racist and neither are the metal fans on ilm.

i'm glad we've learned absolutely nothing about whiteness and ingrained racism in the last few months.

Everyone has racism in them period

ganging up on a POC for bringing up concerns about racism

Is this really what we're doing? Have any of us dismissed the obvious ubiquity of racist elements within the black metal scene? The rolling metal threads are rife with discussions about this.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:29 (one week ago) link

Sorry, but this generalization equating all black metal with white supremacy is as daft as equating all hip hop and grime with misogyny, homophobia and anti-Semitism.

You're right. That's why my position on black metal is and will forever remain NTPO - Nazi Till Proven Otherwise. I'm perfectly willing to accept proof that a given black metal band is not NS, but I go in assuming that they are. Over the last ~30 years, enough black metal bands have been exposed as Nazis, white nationalists, or whatever term you choose to apply that for a new band to emerge working in that style implies that they're at a minimum, OK with tying themselves to the genre despite its sketchy history. So...NTPO.

but also fuck you (unperson), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:31 (one week ago) link

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/1999/black-metal-spreads-neo-nazi-hate-message

maybe the Southern Poverty Law Center can get around to updating this 20-year-old article if they have nothing better to do

the burrito that defined a generation, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:33 (one week ago) link

idk people are being defensive when they don't need to be?

sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:35 (one week ago) link

The rolling metal threads are rife with discussions about this.

yup, much as issues of abuse/cancellation are inevitably a recurring part of all the rolling emo threads.

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:36 (one week ago) link

and the defensiveness comes across as attacking DJP -- like, this is kinda textbook white fragility ... i think?

sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:37 (one week ago) link

yeah i have no idea how this isn't evident how this is coming across

If I read them correctly, DJP seems to argue that the genre of BM is racist/white supremacist from the get-go, i.e. that this is (unalteringly) built into the DNA of the genre, so to speak. Quite clearly, that is something not everyone would agree on (I don’t think I do, although I can see certain points in favour of it), but at least it is a question which could give rise to an interesting discussion and perhaps take this thread in a more constructive direction (unless it has been hashed out a million times before - I don’t think I’ve seen it done exactly like this)

Mule, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:38 (one week ago) link

It’s worth noting (yet again) that not all of us are American or even from countries with an imperialist/colonialist past, which is bound to have a bearing on our approach to these questions.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:40 (one week ago) link

(I suppose Neanderthal - although he is not here - has a certain right to be defensive, given the original post - xpost)

Mule, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:40 (one week ago) link

(please use he/him for me)

shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:40 (one week ago) link

Sure, will do. Sorry. Wasn’t quite sure.

Mule, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:42 (one week ago) link

It’s worth noting (yet again) that not all of us are American or even from countries with an imperialist/colonialist past, which is bound to have a bearing on our approach to these questions.

― pomenitul, Monday, July 27, 2020 12:40 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

neither were many of the most prominent national socialist black metal artists iirc

yeah i have no idea how this isn't evident how this is coming across

I for one am shocked that white people are replying to a thread about black metal. did no one consider the optics?!

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:51 (one week ago) link

cap'n save a BM

tee hee

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:52 (one week ago) link

Should’ve added ‘wealthy’.

xp

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:52 (one week ago) link

whatever it's just a continuation of #onethread where one corner of ILX yells at the other until we all get depressed, mad or terminally snarky (or some combo thereof)

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:53 (one week ago) link

#onestrugglesession

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 17:55 (one week ago) link

FPd myself for talking about The ILX Discourse, the most boring topic yet known to humans, sorry everyone

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 17:58 (one week ago) link

no the most boring topic is The Beatles

sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 18:03 (one week ago) link

T/S: The ILX Discourse vs. Pizza

I for one am shocked that white people are replying to a thread about black metal. did no one consider the optics?!

― the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, July 27, 2020 10:51 AM (thirteen minutes ago)

It's not the fact that you and the other white ppl taking your position are replying -- it's the way in which you are replying ...

sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 18:07 (one week ago) link

xp - I would rather have more polls about The ILX Discourse than about pizza ... I feel like we've polled everything there is to poll about pizza

sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 18:08 (one week ago) link

It's not the fact that you and the other white ppl taking your position are replying -- it's the way in which you are replying ...

I mean I guess I could take a stab at "proving" I'm not actually feeling defensive on the internet but my records show no one has ever actually succeeded at doing this

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 18:10 (one week ago) link

five black metal threads have 1-2 new answers, other than the one where we talk about how racist emperor and darkthrone were. not exactly a sea change

― the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, July 27, 2020 7:46 AM (three hours ago)

like, I can see this post being intended as sympathetic to DJP, but it also reads as defensive / a bit dismissive ...

sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 18:13 (one week ago) link

there's only one person who is really qualified to answer this question and that's the guy who revived all the threads

trapped out the barndo (crüt), Monday, 27 July 2020 18:16 (one week ago) link

that's true. Neanderthal, you had a message for us?

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, 27 July 2020 18:17 (one week ago) link

To be clear, "Neanderthal got drunk" does answer my question

shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 27 July 2020 18:21 (one week ago) link

xp crut: ilx - where being qualified to answer questions is not a criterion for participating in the discourse

sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 18:28 (one week ago) link

I started this thread because, for what I hope would be obvious reasons, my first reaction upon seeing what felt like a wall o' black metal wasn't "oh, let me see what is happening on each of these threads"; it was "ugh gross", particularly after going onto the "best original black metal band" thread and seeing the collective handwaving we all participated in re: what was going on with those bands as they were building their canon. The defensive responses were expected because they always happen no matter how gently the topic is broached, which is a large part of why I didn't bother to be gentle about it.

shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 27 July 2020 19:09 (one week ago) link

It’s worth noting (yet again) that not all of us are American or even from countries with an imperialist/colonialist past, which is bound to have a bearing on our approach to these questions.

― pomenitul, Monday, July 27, 2020 10:40 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

can i just say i hate this, literally every single time this sentiment gets posted, i fucking hate it

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Monday, 27 July 2020 19:31 (one week ago) link

Suit yourself.

I also get triggered when I read Russian apologist tankie bullshit on ILX, but what are you gonna do, context trumps all.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 19:34 (one week ago) link

It’s worth noting (yet again) that not all of us are American or even from countries with an imperialist/colonialist past, which is bound to have a bearing on our approach to these questions.

― pomenitul, Monday, July 27, 2020 12:40 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

neither were many of the most prominent national socialist black metal artists iirc

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, July 27, 2020 1:47 PM bookmarkflaglink

shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 27 July 2020 19:37 (one week ago) link

I then wrote that I should've added 'wealthy'.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 19:38 (one week ago) link

huh?

trapped out the barndo (crüt), Monday, 27 July 2020 19:40 (one week ago) link

i.e. 'or even from wealthy countries or countries with an imperialist/colonialist past' – sorry, that wasn't entirely clear.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 19:41 (one week ago) link

this is a good one to let go

― lol tea partiers and their fat fingers (HI DERE), Monday, November 1, 2010 10:11 AM (nine years ago)

sarahell, Monday, 27 July 2020 19:42 (one week ago) link

is Norway not wealthy or imperialist enough

the state is bad (Left), Monday, 27 July 2020 19:49 (one week ago) link

think pom's point is that he is from romania (poor country that never did much colonising, although WAS a central power #neverforget ;D) but BM is from wealthy, aristocratic norway, but tbh i sort of think that a lot of the good BM right now is rightly interrogating questions of privilege and origin. yeah there are still racists in the scene and yeah there always have been but the same can be said for a lot of scenes and i don't believe white supremacy is encoded into BM. and tbh not even 90's norwegian BM was all done by white kids anyway - for example yusuf parvez aka dodheimsgard was there from close to the outset and he's still making amazing music now and then

imago, Monday, 27 July 2020 19:56 (one week ago) link

shit it was bulgaria that was a central power, sorry. ok romania completely clear haha

imago, Monday, 27 July 2020 19:57 (one week ago) link

no wait i've just checked world war 2. uh-oh

imago, Monday, 27 July 2020 19:58 (one week ago) link

*yusaf parvez even

imago, Monday, 27 July 2020 19:59 (one week ago) link

Unperson did this nice interview with Iranian Zoroastrian BM artist Vizaresa, who records as the (v good) one-man band Akvan: https://daily.bandcamp.com/features/akvan-interview

Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Monday, 27 July 2020 20:09 (one week ago) link

there's only one person who is really qualified to answer this question and that's the guy who revived all the threads

― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Monday, July 27, 2020 2:16 PM bookmarkflaglink

I don't have an explanation other than "I am bored and lonely due to sheltering in place and spend a lot of time listening to music, so I often bump threads or post things that I feel like talking about" because I try to avoid Facebook before bed and I just want to chat with people. last night, I just so happened to be listening to black metal albums for the first time in eons, which lead me to start searching for mentions of these albums or bands in threads to look at discussion, possibly even find a few other reccs, and then wound up bumping the threads while I was in them, either due to a quote, or do to just wanting to post on the album.

There was definitely no underlying theme in my reviving multiple posts other than my usual "over-enthusiastic" schtick, though I can see how the optics look, especially after reading OP. But I didn't intend to send any kind of message like that, or be insensitive - but I know intent doesn't really matter, so I apologize, DJP. I don't want to make anybody feel uncomfortable posting here or cause duress.

Lady Antibody (Neanderthal), Monday, 27 July 2020 20:12 (one week ago) link

romania completely clear

Not 'completely clear' at all – antisemitism and anti-Roma sentiment in particular are indelible stains upon our history – but different enough from the usual (mainly Western) imperialist suspects to merit a less reductive lens than that afforded by American discourses on race, which have their limits when applied beyond the US's borders. Contemporary American (and British) discourses on the relationship between aesthetics and politics also tend to favour the latter almost systematically, and I for one am uncomfortable with that.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 July 2020 20:15 (one week ago) link

xpost also it was a fair question for DJP to ask

Lady Antibody (Neanderthal), Monday, 27 July 2020 20:18 (one week ago) link

sarahell and m@tt otm as well.

Lady Antibody (Neanderthal), Monday, 27 July 2020 20:30 (one week ago) link


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