So "Three Dance Episodes From 'On the Town'" came on the radio this morning, and I started thinking about how I haven't heard that much of Leonard Bernstein's compositions (aside from, of course, West Side Story, which will screw up my position later, just watch), but his conducting is still held in high regard-- his 60s Mahler cycle is easily top 5 of the 20th century recordings of each individual symphony, it seems like. It got me thinking about Mahler himself, in his own lifetime and the immediate thereafter. His reputation as a conductor mostly overshadowed his compositions. To be fair, his symphonies were very demanding, in terms of both run time and actual manpower to perform them, and maybe they were a little too forward thinking for audiences to be really comfortable with them right away. But it wasn't until the 50s and 60s that Mahler started getting programmed more, and of course, more frequently recorded, as playback medium shifted from 3 minute per side shellac records to the Long Player, and recording technology itself made it more feasible to record 75- to 105-minute pieces.
But the whole concept of audio recording makes this interesting, I think. Mahler's conducting was never recorded, so by the 50s, it had passed totally into memory. Schuricht, Walter, and Furtwangler were all passed by 1970, meaning few of Mahler's contemporaries were extensively recorded. Bernstein, on the other hand, came to prominence in the 50s, and was recorded consistently for forty years. His recordings are celebrated, and people who didn't start listening to classical music until after Bernstein's death still have ample opportunity to hear and even watch his work.
So my question became, in 40 years, will Bernstein's compositions become as well-known as his conducting? He's got three symphonies, a couple of operas, and of course his work in musical theater. In fact I would argue that at this point, West Side Story might be more famous than his Mahler cycles or really anything else he did. Will the rest of his work pass into the repertoire, like Mahler's eventually did? Will his recorded legacy as a conductor allow that to happen? Is he simply not as good a symphonist as Mahler? Will the public have time for Bernstein's work in 40 years, or will we be living in a Mad Max style hellscape, struggling to survive, killing each other over cans of gasoline and the last living fruit trees on the planet?
― King SunnO))) Adé (Tom Violence), Sunday, 12 July 2020 16:05 (three years ago) link
Bernstein was taken reasonably seriously as a composer (not Mahler seriously, but who is), to the extent that it was seen as a loss when he decided to focus on conducting rather than composing. It does surprise me that his orchestral work isn't performed more regularly.
His engagement with other popular forms and the lack of a big compositional idea probably counted against him as well.
― Matt DC, Sunday, 12 July 2020 17:43 (three years ago) link
Bernstein had the choice to compose or conduct, and because of the existence of audio recording, he could achieve a legacy (maybe let's not say 'immortality' for a few more years) in either field. Mahler had to compose to be remembered in that concrete a fashion, aside from people telling their grandkids about the time they saw Don Giovanni in Budapest and how much it moved them. I wonder if that had any bearing on Bernstein's choice of focus? Although I thought I read Bernstein regretted the decision later. I should look to see if there are any good biographies that could give some extra insight.
By "engagement with other popular forms," do you mean writing for theater might have given him a reputation for a songwriter like Comden/Green rather than a "composer" like Mahler or Boulez? Or his working with jazz and other popular music styles? Because then I'd have to bring up Gershwin, who has a few pieces in the repertoire (Porgy and Bess being put up by the Met, plus "Rhapsody In Blue" and "An American In Paris" come up at a lot of pops concerts) as well as his theater work, much of which became jazz standards.
― King SunnO))) Adé (Tom Violence), Sunday, 12 July 2020 18:01 (three years ago) link
to me it seems that bernstein's commitment to public outreach / education about classical music, the sort of "anybody can learn and enjoy this, you don't need to be a scholar" attitude, his television appearances, the fact that his most popular work by far was "west side story" and additionally (as you point out) his willingness to engage in / champion pop / jazz idioms — all this has tended to diminish the degree to which he is regarded as a composer of "serious" music. i'll add to that my own perception that, because bernstein's work doesn't belong to any style, school, or tradition, i'm put off a bit by his seeming lack of focus, his willingness to dip his feet into every kind of stylistic water, and in general i (perhaps unfairly) regard him slightly less for what i perceive as a lack of serious commitment. and looking just now i see that david ewen describes an early work as a "passing phase" and notes the "eclecticism that has since [1949] characterized his work, passing as his style does from jazz to the twelve-tone row, from unashamed romanticism to the austerity of modern discords."
― budo jeru, Sunday, 12 July 2020 18:25 (three years ago) link
engagement with other popular forms
Interestingly, West Side Story is the one Bernstein piece that is included in The Royal Conservatory's history curriculum (among the five modern pieces required at Level 9).
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Sunday, 12 July 2020 18:27 (three years ago) link
xpost Budo, that description almost makes him sound like the middle school chorus teacher who writes an original tune for the 11 o'clock number for the class musical revue because there wasn't a song that was quite right for the style/mood they were going for. At the very least, I'd hope 21st century composers might look back on his stuff and maybe expand on it? Who knows, there could be half a dozen compositional career tracks hinted at in his catalog, not counting the Classic Broadway type of writer that I'm sure could make bank when theaters reopen in NY. (nb: I'm not that familiar with the content of his work, which is partly what gave me the impression that his compositions were being undervalued; I'm not sure I've heard On the Town, and I'm nearly certain I've never heard any of his symphonies or solo piano pieces.)
Sund4r: WSS is interesting because it's such a popular show for schools, but it's really hard for most pit musicians afaict. I know the first time I played it, I'd been playing rock/pop shows mostly, and West Side Story is a very different style from Rent or Give My Regards to Broadway. So it's almost too 'classical' for Broadway, but not quite; and I'm always surprised when it's not too 'pop' for conservatory study. But hey, at least we got an American in there.
― King SunnO))) Adé (Tom Violence), Sunday, 12 July 2020 18:47 (three years ago) link
Bumping this because West Side Story is up today on Tom's People's Pop Polls.
― Frank Kogan, Saturday, 11 February 2023 02:19 (one year ago) link
For me, Mahler scores pretty low on listenability. His symphonies, brilliant though they may be, tax my patience. He's kind of like a potentially great author who needs an editor.
Bernstein as a composer is definitely listenable, if not nearly as "weighty" or "important" as Mahler. As a conductor of Mahler, I think he is among the best, which is, I know, an opinion not universally held.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 11 February 2023 20:16 (one year ago) link
I thought Berstein was almost a universal choice for "great Mahler conductor". At least I haven't seen any really negative assesments. Although for me, Walter's pre-Anschluss Vienna 9th and Klemperer's Philharmonia "Resurrection" have moved me more than any Berstein performance, great as they are.
― Alicia Silver Stone (Boring, Maryland), Saturday, 11 February 2023 20:42 (one year ago) link
Bernstein, fuck
― Alicia Silver Stone (Boring, Maryland), Saturday, 11 February 2023 20:44 (one year ago) link
Anyway, one of Bernstein's, I think the Concertgebouw, version of the 1st Symphony totally knocks me out.
― Alicia Silver Stone (Boring, Maryland), Saturday, 11 February 2023 20:45 (one year ago) link
"Mass" I think is Bernstein's compositional masterpiece, and it benefits from being seen live.
― Alicia Silver Stone (Boring, Maryland), Saturday, 11 February 2023 20:47 (one year ago) link
I have seen criticism of Bernstein for putting too much of himself into Mahler. Take that for what it's worth.
I do like the Inbal/RSO Frankfurt cycle.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 11 February 2023 20:55 (one year ago) link
As an ambassador for music, Bernstein was pretty much without equal.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 11 February 2023 20:56 (one year ago) link
I have been meaning to give Bernstein's symphonies a chance, this thread might be the boost I needed ...
Bernstein was one of the most programmed composers in the world in 2018 (his centennial year), that could have marked a turning point for his standing as a composer but I guess it didn't? Or maybe the pandemic halted the momentum and everyone went back to the most established composers once concerts started up again?
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Saturday, 11 February 2023 21:21 (one year ago) link
I live near Baltimore and Marin Alsop played Bernstein with the Baltimore Symphony all the time. In fact she was the one who resurrected Mass with a sensational performance about 15 years ago. Choral societies do Chichester Psalms a lot.
― Alicia Silver Stone (Boring, Maryland), Saturday, 11 February 2023 21:39 (one year ago) link