rolling #metoo thread for sexual harassment in the music industry so no one misses out when artists we don't give a fuck about like Tim Westwood and Bassnectar get caught

Wonderful post, I can see why ilx has so many issues retaining female posters.
― suggest bainne (gyac), Tuesday, November 16, 2021 4:25 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I'm a recent poster, you tell me why most female posters fled :D

tHaT iS YoUr ChOiCe

Rape conviction rates are low enough for cases of normal people navigating the legal system, but sure, let’s pretend women going up against a famous man with lots of money and followers are expecting a positive outcome, or even being “awarded”.

I think there have been countless profiles and books like that RS piece over the years that have more or less celebrated bad behavior without the apparently necessary corrective of " ... and that's bad" added, because we (or many of us) all took these shocks and transgressions as standard rock star behavior. 40 years ago it was "Zeppelin's roadie assaulted a woman with a fish!" and now it's "Zeppelin's roadie assaulted a woman with a fish!?" 20 years ago it would be "Manson locked women in a soundproof booth for hours!" and today it would be "Manson locked women in a soundproof booth for hours!?" I read a review of the new Alanis Morissette doc that said that her bassist and drummer (Foo's Taylor Hawkins) had a dedicated room at each venue to lure back groupies. For years that would be "rock stars, right?" type stuff. Just typing it now, though, it's pretty gross (and Hawkins and the other guy apparently admit as much). Hell, when that Netflix (I think?) adaptation of "The Dirt" came out, even Nikki Sixx felt compelled to go public and pump the brakes, claiming that Strauss (who also wrote the Manson book) made up a lot of shit. Whether or not that is accurate is almost irrelevant, what's relevant is that *even Nikki Sixx* recognized the times have changed, and the behavior described and celebrated in "The Dirt" 15 years ago would get someone in trouble today.

I still don’t know what made that so “ok” back in the day.

some of us were always horrified by this stuff and were just never given a voice to express so, let's not pretend that "times have changed" this stuff was always gross to anyone with half a critical thought in their brain

The issue of coercive control does not mean anyone should assume women are children and unable to make choices
Legal resistance to recognize abuse and award reparation is a separate issue that is not helped, IMO, by sensationalist journalism that can't resist a good monster story for today's edition and does not care much about the way the evidence is presented as long as it can pipe up a scandal
So yeah, I criticize

well i hope you enjoyed your time on ilx

The issue of coercive control does not mean anyone should assume women are children and unable to make choices

Not planning to engage too deeply here but what exactly do you think "coercion" means

Nobody is saying women are children. Abuse never starts out that way, it starts out with the person being lovebombed, then gradually escalating behaviour at the same time as the person being made dependent on them. Article lays it out as part of a continuous pattern of behaviour, and the fact that people don’t want to talk about it or weren’t comparing notes because of the shame is a big reason why stuff like this perpetuates.

I think there have been countless profiles and books like that RS piece over the years that have more or less celebrated bad behavior without the apparently necessary corrective of " ... and that's bad" added, because we (or many of us) all took these shocks and transgressions as standard rock star behavior. 40 years ago it was "Zeppelin's roadie assaulted a woman with a fish!" and now it's "Zeppelin's roadie assaulted a woman with a fish!?" 20 years ago it would be "Manson locked women in a soundproof booth for hours!" and today it would be "Manson locked women in a soundproof booth for hours!?" I read a review of the new Alanis Morissette doc that said that her bassist and drummer (Foo's Taylor Hawkins) had a dedicated room at each venue to lure back groupies. For years that would be "rock stars, right?" type stuff. Just typing it now, though, it's pretty gross (and Hawkins and the other guy apparently admit as much). Hell, when that Netflix (I think?) adaptation of "The Dirt" came out, even Nikki Sixx felt compelled to go public and pump the brakes, claiming that Strauss (who also wrote the Manson book) made up a lot of shit. Whether or not that is accurate is almost irrelevant, what's relevant is that *even Nikki Sixx* recognized the times have changed, and the behavior described and celebrated in "The Dirt" 15 years ago would get someone in trouble today.

― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, November 16, 2021 10:32 AM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I wrote an article about that if anyone cares

https://slate.com/culture/2019/03/the-dirt-netflix-movie-motley-crue-book-adaptation.html

well i hope you enjoyed your time on ilx

ugh this all makes me sick

these stories and the acceptance of them as merely "pretty gross" has enabled RAMPANT SEXUAL ASSAULT in music scenes around the world. JIC -- there is a website for survivors specifically for the DIY scene in your city in case you were not aware. https://notinourscene.com/#/about

To The
Apologists
(a personal message):

NotInOurScene was founded originally for the DIY punk community. It felt like a necessity due to my experiences, playing shows, and dipping my toes in and out of different social circles big and small. I was told who to steer clear from, instead of question why they belonged with us in the first place if they were harmful. I saw friends being tokenized in bands, rather than acknowledged for their musical ability. After my own experience...I grew even more sick of predators not being held accountable, so I made >Not In Our Scene Because although I have seen publications denounce predators in solidarity of survivors, I have also seen those same predators try to regain their platform years later under new names or by moving cities, as if their wrongdoings were forgotten. The community seems to forget too. Friends in bands cover the songs of rapists or still offer them opportunities. Stop doing this. I'm tired of friends and acquaintances' survival stories becoming convoluted by gossip, or the passage of time, until they've faded, the memory being reduced to dismissive anecdotes in favor of predators just because it's just "too hard" for the apologists to accept their friend is anything but their friend..

"That was years ago, I think they've changed."

"I heard about that, but it was just a rumor, they can still be on the bill."

"I can't imagine him/her doing that."

"Well they've always been kind to me so he must not be a predator. He's had a girlfriend for a year, right?"

"She was emotionally unstable... is she even reliable?"

"I can't believe their life [the predator's] was ruined after that. Such a shame."

This is just some of the ignorance I've heard. To the apologists: ABUSERS DON'T ABUSE EVERYONE THEY MEET. Believe survivors.

emphasis mine!

I’d also add “it was the drugs” to that list, but yes.

Whiney, I think I read that back when, but thanks for the reminder, it's good.

boxedjoy otm

and LL of course (as pretty much always)

love to see the "free will" debate used to defend abusive actions - yes, clearly everybody is equally capable of resisting abuse/manipulation, and that's why counseling, therapists, and support groups no longer exist in 2021.

it might help you to actually understand why people are reacting the way they are instead of knee-jerk victim blaming. for example, I let the man who sexually assaulted me attend my grandma's funeral. do you think this is due to me having absolved him of the crime, or something deeper-seated and more complex?

actually, don't answer. take the FP.

literally reminds me of the homeroom teacher I had in middle school who told everybody that when it came to sexual harassment, if you don't tell the perpetrator to stop, they've committed no infraction and can continue to assault you.

not really sure how this glorifies Manson in any way outside of using a publicity still as the first image? idk all put together like that it's pretty horrifying and tells a consistent story. lock this abusive asshole up. and fuck Kanye West too.

I kinda forgot about all the stupid confrontational "KILL YOUR PARENTS" shit that ran rampant in the 90s. it all seemed so performative that yeah I never thought it was a given that he was a horrible person in real life, in fact all I heard about him back then was "oh he's actually a smart and quiet guy when he's not performing"

one interesting aspect to all this is the amount of panic he caused in right-wing circles who were talking about this guy all the time. somehow that's flipped over the last 25 years...he's pro-free speech, anti-cancel culture, he hangs out with Kanye now, etc. in fact the entire GOP built their entire party identity around a guy whose only real skill was saying controversial shit to land himself a bunch of free airtime. but they still have Lil Nas X and Cardi B to complain about so I guess they haven't flipped entirely (hmmm, wonder what it is about those two...)

Wonderful post, I can see why ilx has so many issues retaining female posters.
― suggest bainne (gyac), Tuesday, November 16, 2021 4:25 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I'm a recent poster, you tell me why most female posters fled :D

― Nabozo, Tuesday, November 16, 2021 10:30 AM (fifty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

":D"

fuck off

many xposts, thx for posting that slate piece, Whiney - Josh otm, it’s really good!
Even having lived through it, there was a lot i had forgotten. I think of that time period now as “herpes is the new black”.

and obviously all of Mansons bullshit is contextual. it’s insane to think you can just set all of his posturing aside and say it doesnt have anything to do with his actions

it is disquieting to have engaged w his whole thing early on i mistakenly treated it as a wizard of oz humbug situation ie that maybe he was a harmless dork irl, which was basically just a lie i told myself to make it seem ok, not based on yknow, actual info. and the media coverage seemed content with that line too

anyway yeah the RS piece is a nightmare read. that these women are able to tell their stories to each other as much as to the rest of the world is good therapeutically speaking but ugh also fucking awful to see just how pathological he is

nabozo and people like that are part of the problem.

fucking twat.

Tough read, that.

.

Now that we’ve determined Manson is a monster and Nabozo is a bozo, can we ask what the fuck Marvin Gaye did?

(not that anything would surprise me)

Presumably the Janis Hunter stuff?

Apropos of nothing, I didn't know about that dropped Marilyn Manson Spin cover story in '98. At the time there was discussion that they'd gone with the Shirley Manson cover as some sort of slight to Lauryn Hill, as it was the year-end issue, and Hill was their Artist of The Year, while Shirley (and Butch Vig) had merely done commentary for the traditional Singles of The Year wrapup column in the issue.

that could still be true

Well, yeah.

Looking at the issue on Google Books, I see that in lieu of the Marilyn cover story, they had Joshua Clover do a short 'Day In The Life' piece wherein he dressed up like him and went around LA trying to get into clubs.

That is maybe the funniest sentence I've read in weeks. Really?

can we ask what the fuck Marvin Gaye did?

I just read that he was an abusive spouse, threatened his wife with a knife, screwed a 17-year-old, etc.

The 17 y/o thing I knew. None of the rest would surprise me tho.

Where did you read it?

In Kelefa Sanneh's excellent book about music genres.

Where did you read it?

Mark Morriss of the Bluetones

https://annawharton.substack.com/p/if-im-lying-come-sue-me

Mac DeMarco band member, Jon Lent:

https://pitchfork.com/news/jon-lent-former-mac-demarco-band-member-sentenced-to-jail-for-sexual-assault/

There was some creepy shit about Demarco himself awhile ago too if I recall correctly

Yes there was.

hearsay but my wife heard from multiple women she knew about bad experiences they had with Mac DeMarco back in the day when he lived in Vancouver. she had liked him and never witnessed him behaving inappropriately

From what I recall, there was a story about a member of his band (maybe this same Lent guy?) who exposed himself (and more) at a party in front of minors and, rather than telling him to knock it off, Mac started filming it.

Bluetones guy sounds just as horrible as his band's music might suggest.

What an exhausting and pointless way to live your life too.

heres the thing Mac demarco's music sucks anyway so stop listening to it. he's also known about this shit for what half a year? fuck that guy and fuck his music anyway

talking about alexis marshall from daughters

― ufo, Friday, October 15, 2021 12:10 AM (one month ago) bookmarkflaglink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bi39S0mBck
She addresses the abuse from 46:35 in relation to the album and an operation she had to undergo on her spine. Chilling.

Sorry about Fantano's face, but that's how I found out.

yipes

more fodder for my theory about men who name their group of men after women

ugh. LL otm.

I’ve decided to release my full statement about my experience at this time. Hopefully this will answer any questions and clarify timelines. Heavy content warning. https://t.co/5Rz0xNe7v6

— LINGUA “UNHINGED KRAMPUS MOM” IGNOTA (@LINGUA_IGNOTA_) December 9, 2021

extensive (& very harrowing, serious warning about the content) statement from her on the abuse