Rolling Classical 2020

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed

I thought this essay on Wagner and his anti-Semitism (or, rather, anti-Judaism, as the author concludes) was really great, avoiding simplistic takes and looking in depth at the work, the ideas, and the history (and I often roll my eyes wrt discussions of this topic):

Un sang impur (Sund4r), Sunday, 5 January 2020 20:31 (nine months ago) link

(h/t Oor Neechy)

Un sang impur (Sund4r), Sunday, 5 January 2020 20:33 (nine months ago) link

It's five years old but new to me.

Un sang impur (Sund4r), Sunday, 5 January 2020 20:41 (nine months ago) link

Its not new but it is a very good read. I'm not really familiar with Wagners music though.


Dog Is Daed (Oor Neechy), Sunday, 5 January 2020 20:42 (nine months ago) link

Good piece indeed, even though there are grounds for quibbling here and there. For instance, Mendelssohn was baptized and wrote quite a bit of explicitly Christian music, so Wagner's anti-semitism went beyond opposition to Judaism.

pomenitul, Monday, 6 January 2020 02:13 (nine months ago) link

Alex Ross's big Wagner book is finally coming out this year, so I'll read this now and think about it again later, probably.

shared unit of analysis (unperson), Monday, 6 January 2020 02:28 (nine months ago) link

Not sure if this fits in on this thread, but has anyone listened to Ekmeles: A Howl That Was Also A Prayer?

idgaf (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 17:28 (nine months ago) link

It definitely fits. I just started listening to it. I'd never heard of Taylor Brook but he is apparently a young Canadian composer and McGill grad? Cool.

Un sang impur (Sund4r), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 20:10 (nine months ago) link

Listening to a really cool solo organ album with terrible cover art. Some seriously swoopy prog-rock noises going on here.

shared unit of analysis (unperson), Wednesday, 8 January 2020 00:59 (nine months ago) link

Sorry, here's the terrible cover art in question:

shared unit of analysis (unperson), Wednesday, 8 January 2020 01:00 (nine months ago) link

There's far worse tbf. Anyway, I haven't heard the album but Finns are ever reliable composers.

pomenitul, Wednesday, 8 January 2020 01:10 (nine months ago) link

The album's really good in a "let's freak out the neighbor's pets" sort of way. Not subtle stuff by any stretch.

shared unit of analysis (unperson), Wednesday, 8 January 2020 01:13 (nine months ago) link

Roxy, I've listened to it a couple of times (always while doing something else) and am finding it interesting. There are definitely things to enjoy. The effects and resonances Brook gets from the microtonal motion of voices are very cool and reminded me a little of Qasim Naqvi's Fjoloy. Thw changing vowel shapes show a definite throat singing influence. I really liked the Gee piece: like choral clicks and cuts at times but juxtaposed with more sustained resonant material and those piercing overtones. Great range of timbres and to the point. I think I am still getting a handle on everything that's going on with the Trapani piece in terms of how the voices, electronics, and text are working together but there are pretty moments.

Un sang impur (Sund4r), Wednesday, 8 January 2020 21:30 (nine months ago) link

i find the spoken portions in Brook's portion sound almost...parodic? i don't know, they rubbed me the wrong way and took me out of it at times. love how all the microtonal stuff sounds juxtaposed with a kind of ars antiqua sound. i enjoyed the little tricks like the bird sounds, and the dial tone (i'm pretty sure that was vocal?) in Trapani's piece, i'm a nut for that kind of thing.

idgaf (roxymuzak), Thursday, 9 January 2020 17:53 (nine months ago) link

Yeah, the connection between the text and music in the Brook isn't clear to me either. If I focus on the text, it does take me out of the music as well. If I listen for the sound, which is how I listen to it most of the time, the spoken word doesn't bother me but I'm also basically tuning out the text. Someone who knows more about contemporary literature than I do might be getting more out of it? I agree with your comment about the medieval allusions as well.

Un sang impur (Sund4r), Thursday, 9 January 2020 20:27 (nine months ago) link

I see New Focus are also putting out an album by Yale guitarist/composer Ben Verdery, with "Scenes from Ellis Island" as the featured track on Bandcamp here: . I had the opportunity to play in a performance of this piece last August and it's a little surprising to hear this version, which is notably different, with a more stripped down guitar 'ensemble' (I'm guessing overdubs of the two guitarists), a female singer, and no electric guitar solo. The version I played in (also led by Verdery) was closer to the style of these: + . New version sounds beautiful but seems too polite.

Un sang impur (Sund4r), Thursday, 9 January 2020 20:39 (nine months ago) link

Coming up in March: Barbara Hannigan's take on Gérard Grisey's Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil. Yessss

pomenitul, Saturday, 11 January 2020 16:01 (nine months ago) link

I have a download of her doing that live with the NYPO. It’s excellent.

valet doberman (Jon not Jon), Saturday, 11 January 2020 18:59 (nine months ago) link

Oh, that's exciting.

One must put up barriers to keep oneself intact (Sund4r), Sunday, 12 January 2020 00:06 (nine months ago) link

So these are the compositions up for a Grammy tonight. There are a few composers I like a fair bit but I haven't actually listened to any of these yet.:

Berme: Migration Series For Jazz Ensemble & Orchestra, Derek Bermel, composer (Derek Bermel, Ted Nash, David Alan Miller, Juilliard Jazz Orchestra & Albany Symphony Orchestra)
Higdon: Harp Concerto, Jennifer Higdon, composer (Yolanda Kondonassis, Ward Stare & The Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra)
Marsalis: Violin Concerto in D Major, Wynton Marsalis, composer (Nicola Benedetti, Cristian Măcelaru & Philadelphia Orchestra)
Norman: Sustain, Andrew Norman, composer (Gustavo Dudamel & Los Angeles Philharmonic)
Shaw: Orange, Caroline Shaw, composer (Attacca Quartet)
Wolfe: Fire in My Mouth, Julia Wolfe, composer (Jaap Van Zweden, Francisco J.Núñez, Donald Nally, The Crossing, Young People's Chorus Of NY City & New York Philharmonic)

With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Monday, 27 January 2020 03:20 (eight months ago) link

And Higdon won, it seems. I remember liking her Zaka quite a bit. I'm interested in new harp music. Look forward to hearing this.

With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Monday, 27 January 2020 03:27 (eight months ago) link

I know the cellist from the Attacca Qtet, very cool that they got a nomination

valet doberman (Jon not Jon), Monday, 27 January 2020 05:14 (eight months ago) link

I don't know Higdon, but the Grammys nominating Norman, Shaw, Wolfe and Marsalis is honestly better than expected. Though there's probably still people out there complaining serialism got snubbed.

Frederik B, Monday, 27 January 2020 08:38 (eight months ago) link

Though there's probably still people out there complaining serialism got snubbed.


*Well, not quite, insofar as serialism is hardly progressive these days and hasn't been for a long time – just another tool in the contemporary composer's shed – but I do find this list of nominees rather and safe and yawn-inducing and American-centric. Not that I expect anything else from the Grammy Awards regardless of category. As a side note, I will no doubt get eviscerated for including none of these composers in the upcoming late 20th/early 21st century decade polls, but when canonical consensus becomes more problematic than ever, I think it's best to own up to one's more subjective intuitions. But we should be fine up until the… 1990s, maybe?

pomenitul, Monday, 27 January 2020 09:24 (eight months ago) link

*rather safe

pomenitul, Monday, 27 January 2020 09:27 (eight months ago) link

You kinda have to have Partita and Play on there... And Beyond Ocean. Don't fill it up with US hipster stuff, but those three have to be on there imo.

No, it's definitely American-centric, but it's the Grammys, so. I think it's pretty amazing that Andrew Norman is considered safe, and you're probably right, he is, but Play to me is still wtf-just-hit-me incredible.

Frederik B, Monday, 27 January 2020 09:31 (eight months ago) link

I don't like Partita and haven't heard Play but as a merciful poll god I will likely include them nonetheless (the former for sure, as its impact is undeniable).

Beyond Ocean will definitely make it – I'm a JLA fan.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 January 2020 09:34 (eight months ago) link

I honestly think you might like Andrew Norman. It's pretty crazy. And he has been good at explaining what is new, I've used quotes from him in a couple of film reviews.

Frederik B, Monday, 27 January 2020 09:37 (eight months ago) link

Sold. I've added him to my list.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 January 2020 09:43 (eight months ago) link

We're talking about the awards given out by an organization of leading figures in the US commercial recording industry so, yes, it's going to be US-slanted and on the safer side. (They're notoriously stuffy even about pop music.) Maybe I should raise my standards but tbh I'm just impressed that they nominate new music at all every year. I've written two serial pieces in the last few years but you could definitely get MORE conservative than Norman/Shaw/Wolfe/Higdon.

With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Monday, 27 January 2020 13:22 (eight months ago) link

Maybe I should raise my standards but tbh I'm just impressed that they nominate new music at all every year.

Realistically speaking, it's pretty cool that they even so much as acknowledge the field.

pomenitul, Monday, 27 January 2020 13:30 (eight months ago) link

I reviewed a new album of organ music - Susanne Kujala's Organ Music of the 21st Century. It's really good.

shared unit of analysis (unperson), Tuesday, 28 January 2020 13:25 (eight months ago) link

Yeah, I remember you mentioning it upthread. I'll check it out, thanks.

pomenitul, Tuesday, 28 January 2020 13:37 (eight months ago) link

Peter Serkin just passed away. He was an extraordinary pianist, as comfortable in Webern, Messiaen and Takemitsu as he was in the mainstream canonical classics. I don't think I've ever heard a recording of his that I didn't like. He will be missed.

toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul), Sunday, 2 February 2020 10:25 (eight months ago) link

Just saw that news myself
A rather underrecorded pianist unfortunately

valet doberman (Jon not Jon), Sunday, 2 February 2020 18:49 (eight months ago) link

Unsuk Chin wins the Sonning award for 2021. They continue their good run, after Hans Abrahamsen in 2019 and Barbara Hannigan in 2020.

I think I have a ticket for the Hannigan award gala. She is doing most of Crazy Girl Crazy, both Berg and Gershwin.

Frederik B, Monday, 3 February 2020 18:19 (eight months ago) link

Happy to hear it! I haven't kept up with her recent work at all but she remains an incredible composer.

toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul), Monday, 3 February 2020 18:20 (eight months ago) link

i need her to record schoenberg op. 10. I have a live capture but the sound has probz

valet doberman (Jon not Jon), Monday, 3 February 2020 18:25 (eight months ago) link

Sweet premise:

― pomenitul

if they're not grossly underrehearsed it shouldn't count!

quick nerd question, Sveshnikov's recording of "All-Night Vigil", there's only one of those from '65, right? the recordings i'm finding are dated '73 but i don't know if that's just when they released it in the west...

you know my name, look up the number of the beast (rushomancy), Wednesday, 5 February 2020 01:04 (eight months ago) link

I'm fairly confident it's the same recording.

toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul), Wednesday, 5 February 2020 09:28 (eight months ago) link

i sort of figured so, thanks!

in between superficially checking out some of the decade poll stuff i am unfamiliar with (there's too much for me to absorb it all!) i've been getting more into ars subtilior... at least the quantity of this stuff is more manageable, as far as i can tell most of it comes down to the codex chantilly. lots of different recordings, but that's all for the better.

you know my name, look up the number of the beast (rushomancy), Wednesday, 5 February 2020 14:27 (eight months ago) link

Fascinating to see/hear the Ensemble Intercontemporain play Takemitsu:

toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul), Friday, 7 February 2020 14:28 (eight months ago) link

Cool. Do you think you might go to any of those festival concerts?

jmm, Friday, 7 February 2020 15:55 (eight months ago) link

The Saturday night Perroy concert would probably be easiest since I work during most of the others. Friday night possibly but Feb 14 is, uh, not necessarily the best day to make plans to bro down over nylon strings.

With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Friday, 7 February 2020 16:12 (eight months ago) link

Cool article, and I enjoyed the YT embeds as well.

toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul), Friday, 7 February 2020 16:39 (eight months ago) link

A couple nights ago I saw this piece by Quebec composer Jacques Hétu, based on the occupation of France. I thought the choral movement (4. Liberté), with text by Paul Éluard, was really gorgeous. Julie Payette was in the choir, randomly.

jmm, Saturday, 8 February 2020 14:16 (eight months ago) link

I've always been a bit wary of him as he is championed by reactionaries such as Le Devoir's resident classical music critic, and I have little patience for straight Neo-classicism in general, but I'll check it out anyway.

toilet-cleaning brain surgeon (pomenitul), Saturday, 8 February 2020 14:24 (eight months ago) link

Went to the P2 Award Gala last saturday. It opened with the winner of the Talent award, 24-year old Gustav Piekut, playing Debussy's L'Isle Joyeuse, and I think the video works:

Other award winners included Event of the year going to Hans Abrahamsens 'Snedronningen', which, duh. Best New Music album was Nordic String Quartet for a recording of string quartets by Pelle Gudmundsen-Holmgren. I'm not saying what won Best Danish Album, because you can all figure it out, even more duh. Yeah, that album, an Abrahamsen opera, Piekut beginning to break through. Classical is doing pretty damn well in Denmark at the moment.

Frederik B, Monday, 10 February 2020 10:58 (eight months ago) link

I'd be interested! (Though I go AWOL a lot and miss stuff. Not least that notated music poll, despite submitting nominations! o_0 )

Nag! Nag! Nag!, Wednesday, 23 September 2020 11:55 (three weeks ago) link

I would watch! I’m not versed broadly enough in X to vote. I will say that Persephassa live in Central Park was one of the peak live music experiences of my life.

and i can almost smell your PG Tips (Jon not Jon), Wednesday, 23 September 2020 12:31 (three weeks ago) link

Alternatively, we could do a dedicated chronological listening thread, Shakey-style.

sock solipsist (pomenitul), Wednesday, 23 September 2020 13:47 (three weeks ago) link

Oh, that sounds fun.

The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Wednesday, 23 September 2020 13:54 (three weeks ago) link

And it doesn't have to be Xenakis (although I, for one, would be into it). We can nominate a few composers, then poll them to secure a consensus.

sock solipsist (pomenitul), Wednesday, 23 September 2020 13:56 (three weeks ago) link

i'd be into a dedicated xenakis thread — perhaps as a precursor to a ballot poll ?

budo jeru, Wednesday, 23 September 2020 21:19 (three weeks ago) link

Excellent idea! Any other prospective participants?

sock solipsist (pomenitul), Wednesday, 23 September 2020 21:27 (three weeks ago) link

Ha, thought so.

In other news, John Luther Adams's Lines Made by Walking and untouched, played by the ever-reliable JACK Quartet, both sound like unabashed Pärt riffs, and I'm totally cool with that.

sock solipsist (pomenitul), Thursday, 24 September 2020 18:11 (three weeks ago) link

Oh I'd be up for it!

Monte Scampino (Le Bateau Ivre), Thursday, 24 September 2020 18:14 (three weeks ago) link

Well, ok, untouched less so due to the microtonal inflections, but still.

xp excellent, so I guess that makes… six of us?

sock solipsist (pomenitul), Thursday, 24 September 2020 18:20 (three weeks ago) link

Iannis Xenasix, Metastasix, The Dämmerschein Six. The possibilities are endless!

Monte Scampino (Le Bateau Ivre), Thursday, 24 September 2020 19:25 (three weeks ago) link

John Luther Adams/JACK Quartet and three compositions inspired by slowly trudging across vast landscapes. I'm up for some of that!

calzino, Thursday, 24 September 2020 21:14 (three weeks ago) link

Speaking of JLA and vast landscapes, Become River, Become Ocean and Become Desert have just been re-released as a trilogy.

sock solipsist (pomenitul), Thursday, 24 September 2020 21:17 (three weeks ago) link

For some reason, I just don't find myself going back to his works very much, although I own four of his albums and listened to all of them in the years of release. Not sure what it is.

The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Thursday, 24 September 2020 21:48 (three weeks ago) link

I think of him as an ambient composer.

sock solipsist (pomenitul), Thursday, 24 September 2020 22:13 (three weeks ago) link

I'd be up for whatever kind of dedicated listening thread, Xenakis or et al., you all devise (I'm certainly not knowledgeable enough to participate in a poll though) provided it doesn't start until next week.

On that note, in the free time I'm about to finally have, I was idly thinking about listening through pom's classical polls: each top 3 or something...I haven't thought about the logistics at all, just been wanting to do a more dedicated listen to classical than I ever have. This project might be slightly more likely to actually happen if someone joins me—I could start a thread if anyone thinks they'd be into commenting/playing along/making fun of my taste?

rob, Thursday, 24 September 2020 22:53 (three weeks ago) link

Rolling classical threads don't see much action anyway, so feel free to keep us posted here, if you prefer.

Starting with the top 3 results of each decade poll up until, say, 1940, is not a bad way to do it – thanks for the vote of confidence! I wouldn't approach it too systematically, though, so if I were you I'd give myself some wiggle room to periodically put those polls on the back-burner and just keep exploring whichever composer and/or compositional genre you jive with the most along the way.

I have no musical training to speak of and can't tell an A apart from a C, so I just got into classical because I liked what I heard (Shostakovich's 8th String Quartet was the catalyst). There's some theoretical stuff I amateurishly picked up along the way just by listening (and reading, although that doesn't extend to actual sheet music), but simply paying attention and being moved by certain pieces is what did it for me – as with all other types of music, really, although classical does perhaps require you to focus a bit more before it opens up, which is part of what I like about it tbh, especially now that I'm finding it increasingly more difficult not to be scatterbrained as digital electronics, with their infinite potential for multi-tasking (aka distraction), encroach on my listening habits to an unsettling degree.

sock solipsist (pomenitul), Thursday, 24 September 2020 23:37 (three weeks ago) link

Thanks for the encouragement, pom! Excited for this, it's really going to improve my pretentious, ivory-tower-dwelling elitist snob game :)

I've just started listening and since the first piece is a total obscurity called Beethoven's 'Pastoral' (two thumbs up), I have a question: do any of you have a go-to source/guide for deciding which recording to listen to?

I'm currently listening to Karl Böhm and the Wiener Philharmoniker as it was the first one that came up when I searched. I don't have any might be a little soft? It's called Pastoral though so that seems appropriate. [ok, I just got to the storm section...never mind, this is properly dynamic]

I know "Pastoral" fairly well actually, though not to the level of having any kind of perspective on the interpretative work Böhm might be doing. But an anxiety I always have with big canon classical is that I'm not listening to the "best" recording--I know the answer is probably: just listen to it and if you like it try some others, but I'm wondering if there's a relatively trustworthy guide I'm not aware of. Even just searching for this music on streaming services is a nightmare--instant nostalgia for the CD racks at my public library growing up (which I largely ignored on my way to the sci-fi section lol).

Other than a recording guide, I'd be curious if anyone has any book recommendations? Not quite sure what I have in mind, but, for example, I have an unread copy of Alex Ross's The Rest Is Noise that I plan to at least dip into when I get to the 20th c.

Also, thank you to the poll voters, "Pastoral" was a rather pleasant way to start the project and my morning.

rob, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 13:27 (two weeks ago) link

Sadly neither The Penguin guides nor the gramophone guides are still printed they have their limitations of course (bias towards British performers) but used ones could help you start exploring. With Spotify it’s so easy to compare performances and see which one moves you the most. Then you can go down the rabbit hole of “traditional” vs. “historically informed performance”, etc. Bohm would represent the former, for example. Huge orchestra, 20th century instruments.

Right now for Beethoven I’m enjoying Frans Brüggen and the Orchestra of the 18th Century for a “ historically informed” approach. It’s quite delightful!

Boring, Maryland, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 14:10 (two weeks ago) link

an anxiety I always have with big canon classical is that I'm not listening to the "best" recording

I can certainly relate to this. Starting out, there were certain canonical works I couldn't get into at all until I found the right recording, so the stakes are high and therefore stressful! Honestly, I'd say it's a process of trial and error: if you feel like Böhm's take on the Pastoral is too leisurely (and it really is), you can check out a swifter, more youthful version such as Claudio Abbado's live recording with the Berlin Philharmonic (that's probably my go-to Beethoven Symphonies cycle btw, although it tells an ineluctably partial tale and could never suffice on its own). But yeah, I'd say it helps to read online reviews and get a sense of which interpretation best matches your view of the work and/or the composer's aesthetic, and that takes time. But it's also a lot of fun, and the realization that you only disliked/failed to get important composition x because subpar recording(s) y or z had misled you is one of my favourite things about exploring classical music. You'll also start to get a better feel for who your favourite performers are, and they can usually guide you through other composers' oeuvres as well.

As for The Rest Is Noise, I think it's a good read, but its narrative is extremely US-centric, which may or may not appeal to you. I personally found that aspect of it quite insufferable, especially when he suggests that while fascism may have threatened to destroy European music, the US heroically swooped in to save the day, expanding the modernist idiom beyond what was previously thought possible (which is true), as though aesthetic breakthroughs had just ceased in the so-called Old World (which is bullshit). If you look past that borderline jingoistic reading of history, however, and supplement it with, say, Paul Griffiths's Modern Music and After for the postwar period, it's definitely worth your while because it does help make up for the unsurprisingly Eurocentric approaches that thrive on the other side of the pond (I mind those way less, but that's my own personal bias showing).

Oh, and I almost forgot about the guides. I just just saw that the latest entry in The Guardian's 'Know the Score' series was added this morning – on Schubert, incidentally – and it occurs to me that it's not a bad place to start, even though I don't really care for Andrew Clements's list of great Beethoven performers. Not that it matters in the end – you're bound to feel differently from both me and Clements after listening to different recordings, and that's precisely the beauty of it:

pomenitul, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 14:29 (two weeks ago) link

xp to B,M: Brüggen is good! I really enjoy his Mozart too, and I usually don't like Mozart all that much.

pomenitul, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 14:30 (two weeks ago) link

Haha, the Griffiths was the textbook when I took late 20th c music history in undergrad (not sure why tbh since the prof was far from being a Boulez-obsessed Europhile) - Ross's take is almost a breath of fresh air in comparison, but yeah, the two have opposite biases. I find the Griffiths a little dry and rarefied, though - I wouldn't even assign it to undergrad music students myself.

What I did assign is Joseph Auner and Walter Frisch - Music in the Twentieth and Twenty-First Centuries, which involves a little more notation and technical musical info than Ross but certainly no more than Griffiths. I think it's very good, thorough, and up-to-date; American but not as slanted in its coverage as Ross; touches on the relationships between these movements and popular styles as well.

The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Wednesday, 30 September 2020 14:46 (two weeks ago) link

I was hoping you’d chime in! The Auer sounds like an excellent recommendation indeed. Ex-ILXor Tim Rutherford-Johnson’s Music After the Fall also seems like a great read if you’re interested in contemporary (post-1989) music, but I’ve yet to read it myself.

pomenitul, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 14:52 (two weeks ago) link

*Auner, sorry.

pomenitul, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 14:53 (two weeks ago) link

Ha, I didn't know he was an ilxor!

The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Wednesday, 30 September 2020 19:29 (two weeks ago) link

wow these are such helpful responses, thank you! I'll try to respond more fully at some point but I really appreciate the guidance

rob, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 23:00 (two weeks ago) link

Alex Bougie doing a concert of contemporary guitar music here rn: . Should be archived. I'll pass on the link.

The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Saturday, 3 October 2020 23:35 (two weeks ago) link

Ha, he's playing a progressive metal-inspired piece by Bredeson rn that was introduced with "time to djent". A lot of palm-muted downstrokes.

The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Sunday, 4 October 2020 00:03 (two weeks ago) link


I've bitched about Ross before but if there's one thing you can't say about The Rest Is Noise, it's that it doesn't give Sibelius his much-deserved due. I mean, it's one of the book's most memorable aspects, and I read it more than a decade ago. Nielsen does get a bit shortchanged, though.

In other news, I'm happy to see Ross rep for Bára Gísladóttir.

pomenitul, Sunday, 11 October 2020 14:02 (one week ago) link

Ha, I think Ross's adoration of Sibelius was the first thing I commented on after reading that book.

The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Sunday, 11 October 2020 16:04 (one week ago) link

Ha, I think Ross's adoration of Sibelius was the first thing I commented on after reading that book.

Yeah it made me go back and really pay attention to Sibelius and find that Adorno was totally wrong about him.

Boring, Maryland, Sunday, 11 October 2020 16:24 (one week ago) link

The only Adornian musical challop I vaguely agree with is that Stravinsky is overrated. He was utterly wrong about Sibelius, though, and even wronger about jazz, although I have read some spirited defences of his disdain for the latter, the argument being that he disliked not so much the 'artsier' jazz that was still to come (a debatable claim to begin with), and that he never deigned explore anyway, but rather the swingy and commercial big bands of the 1930s and 1940s, which to him were just the noise made by American capitalism.

Anyway, Philippe Lacoue-Labarthe had a good piece about the ambiguity of Entkunstung (dis-artification? Lacoue-Labarthe gives a punny translation in the original French: désart), a concept Adorno utilized to deny jazz the mantle of 'art' and that paradoxically plays an essential role in Adorno's own understanding of modern art as deliberately turning on itself and running the risk of self-destruction, which perhaps implies that jazz is, in fact, the most modernist art of all according to Adorno. But I digress…

pomenitul, Sunday, 11 October 2020 16:57 (one week ago) link

he disliked not so much the 'artsier' jazz that was still to come (a debatable claim to begin with), and that he never deigned explore anyway, but rather the swingy and commercial big bands of the 1930s and 1940s, which to him were just the noise made by American capitalism

Isn't this true? I always thought he was writing about the pop music of the 30s and 40s, essentially - big bands and crooners, mainly. The tunes he refers to by name are "Deep Purple" and "Sunrise Serenade".

The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Sunday, 11 October 2020 17:07 (one week ago) link

I mean, I don't think he was a fan of bebop or free jazz either but I doubt it would have been for the same reasons?

The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Sunday, 11 October 2020 17:08 (one week ago) link

He seemed unwilling to engage with jazz beyond those commercial acts, so I think it's fair to take him to task for a stubborn shortsightedness that he never really made up for even later in life. He 'figured it out' in the 1930s and never departed from that assessment.

pomenitul, Sunday, 11 October 2020 17:17 (one week ago) link

Actually, I just came across this quote of Adorno's (from 1953) where he explicitly rejects the distinction between commercial jazz and its other:

The real conflict is about the distinction between 'authentic' and 'commercial' Jazz, which is, according to Berndt, 'foundational for any study of jazz'. He thinks that this discussion is not known to me, but my essay attacked it and therefore cannot accept its demand.

pomenitul, Sunday, 11 October 2020 17:23 (one week ago) link

Oops, forgot to block quote it.

pomenitul, Sunday, 11 October 2020 17:24 (one week ago) link

Ah, OK, I haven't read that 1953 piece.

The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Sunday, 11 October 2020 17:38 (one week ago) link

Fuck adorno tbh

covidsbundlertanze op. 6 (Jon not Jon), Sunday, 11 October 2020 22:44 (one week ago) link


budo jeru, Sunday, 11 October 2020 23:17 (one week ago) link

anyway ... xenakis listening thread ?

budo jeru, Sunday, 11 October 2020 23:17 (one week ago) link

I’m still up for it.

pomenitul, Monday, 12 October 2020 00:12 (one week ago) link

List of works from Oxford Music Online (somehow I didn't know or remember that Kraanerg was written for the opening of the NAC and was premiered here!):

Anastenaria: le sacrifice, orch (51 insts), 1953, sketch
Metastaseis, 1953–4; SWF SO, cond. H. Rosbaud, Donaueschingen, 16 Oct 1955
Pithoprakta, 1955–6; Bavarian RSO, cond. H. Scherchen, Munich, 8 March 1957
Achorripsis, 21 insts, 1956–7; Colón cond. Scherchen, Buenos Aires, 20 July 1958
Duel, 2 small orchs, 1959; Radio Hilversum PO, cond. D. Masson and F. Terby, Hilversum, 18 Oct 1971
Syrmos, 12 vn, 3 vc, 3 db, 1959; Ensemble Instrumental de Musique Contemporaine, cond. Simonović, Paris, 20 May 1969
Stratégie, 2 small orchs, 1959–62; Venice Festival Orchestra, cond. B. Maderna and C. Simonović, 25 April 1963
ST/48, 48 insts, 1959–62; Orchestre Philharmonique de l’ORTF, cond. L. Foss, Paris, 21 Oct 1968
Akrata, 16 wind, 1964–5; cond. Simonović, Paris, 1965
Terretektorh, 1966; Orchestre Philharmonique de l’ORTF, cond. Scherchen, Royan, 3 April 1966
Polytope, 4 orch groups, 1967; Ensemble Instrumental de Musique Contemporaine, cond. Simonović, Montreal, Expo 67, 1967
Nomos gamma, 1967–8; Orchestre Philharmonique de l’ORTF, cond. C. Bruck, Royan, 4 April 1969
Kraanerg (ballet), orch, tape, 1968; Ottawa, June 1969
Synaphaï, pf, orch, 1969; Pludermacher, cond. M. Tabachnik, Royan, 6 April 1971
Antikhthon (ballet), 1971; cond. Tabachnik, Bonn, Festival Xenakis, 21 Sept 1974
Eridanos, 8 brass, str orch, 1973; Ensemble Européen de Musique Contemporaine cond. Tabachnik, La Rochelle, 13 April 1973
Erikhthon, pf, orch, 1974; C. Helffer, Orchestre de l’ORTF, cond. Tabachnik, Paris, 21 May 1974
Noomena, 1974; Orchestre de Paris, cond. G. Solti, Paris, 16 Oct 1974
Empreintes, 1975; Netherlands Radio PO, cond. Tabachnik, La Rochelle, 29 June 1975
Jonchaies, 1977; Orchestre National de France, cond. Tabachnik, Paris, 21 Dec 1977
Aïs, amp Bar, perc, orch, 1980; S. Sakkas, Gualda, Bavarian RSO, cond. Tabachnik, Munich, 13 Feb 1981
Pour les baleines, str, 1982; Orchestre Colonne, cond. D. Masson, Orléans, 2 Dec 1983
Lichens, 1983; Liège PO, cond. Bartholomée, Liège 16 April 1984
Shaar, str, 1983; Jerusalem Sinfonietta, cond. J.- P. Izquierdo, Tel Aviv, 3 Feb 1983
Alax, 3 ens of 10 insts (fl, cl, 2 hn, trbn, hp, perc, vn, 2 vc), 1985; Ensemble Modern, Ensemble Köln, Gruppe Neue Musik Hanns Eisler, cond. E. Bour, Cologne, 15 Sept 1985
Horos, 1986; Japan PO, cond. H. Iwaki, Tokyo, 24 Oct 1986
Keqrops, pf, orch, 1986; R. Woodward, New York PO, cond. Z. Mehta, New York, 13 Nov 1986
Ata, 1987; SWF SO, cond. M. Gielen, Baden-Baden, 3 May 1988
Tracées, 1987; Orchestre National de Lille, cond. J.-C. Casadeus, Paris, 17 Sept 1987
Kyania, 1990; Montpellier PO, cond. Z. Peskó, Montpellier, 7 Dec 1990
Tuorakemsu, 1990; Shinsei Nippon Orchestra, cond. H. Iwaki, Tokyo, 9 Oct 1990
Dox-Orkh, vn, orch, 1991; Arditti, BBC SO, London, cond. A. Tamayo, Strasbourg, 6 Oct 1991
Krinòïdi, 1991; Orchestra Sinfonica dell’Emilia-Romagna ‘Arturo Toscanini’, cond. R. Encinar, Parma, May 1991
Roáï, 1991; Berlin RSO, cond. O. Henzold, Berlin, 24 March 1992
Troorkh, trbn, orch, 1991; C. Lindberg, Swedish RSO, cond. E.-P. Salonen, Stockholm, 26 March 1993
Mosaïques, 1993; Orchestre des Jeunes de la Méditerranée, cond. Tabachnik, Marseilles, 23 July 1993
Dämmerschein, 1993–4; Cologne RSO, cond. Peskó, Lisbon, 9 June 1994
Koïranoï 1994; NDR SO, cond. Peskó, Hamburg, 1 March 1996
Ioolkos, 1995; SWF SO, cond. K. Ryan, Donaueschingen, 20 Oct 1996
Voile, str, 1995; Munich Chamber Orchestra, cond. C. Poppen, Munich, 16 Nov 1995
Sea-Change, 1997; BBC SO, cond. A. Davis, London, 23 July 1997
O-Mega, perc solo, chbr orch, 1997; E. Glennie, London Sinfonietta, cond. M. Stenz, Huddersfield, 30 Nov 1997

Zyia (folk), S, male vv (10 minimum), fl, pf, 1952; cond. R. Safir, Evreux, 5 April 1994
Anastenaria: procession aux eaux claires, SATB (30vv), male choir (15vv), orch (62 insts), 1953, sketch
Polla ta dhina (Sophocles: Antigone), children’s vv, wind, perc, 1962; cond. Scherchen, Stuttgart, 25 Oct 1962
Hiketides: les suppliates d’Eschyle, 50 female vv, 10 insts/orch, 1964; cond. Simonović, Paris, 1968
Oresteïa (incid music/concert work, Aeschylus), chorus, 12 insts, 1965–6; cond. Simonović, Ypsilanti, MI, 14 June 1966
Medea (incid music, Seneca), male vv, orch, 1967; cond. Masson, Paris, 29 March 1967
Nuits, 3 S, 3 A, 3 T, 3 B, 1967–8; cond. M. Couraud, Royan, 7 April 1968
Cendrées, chorus, orch, 1973–4; cond. Tabachnik, Lisbon, 20 June 1974
A Colone (Sophocles), male/female vv (20 minimum), 5 hn, 3 trbn, 6 vc, 4 db, 1977; Metz, 19 Nov 1977
A Hélène, Mez, female vv, 2 cl, 1977; Epidavros, July 1977
Anemoessa (phonemic text), SATB (42 minimum), orch, 1979; cond. R. Dufallo, Amsterdam, 21 June 1979
Nekuïa (phonemes and text from J.-P. Richter: Siebenkäs and Xenakis: Ecoute), SATB (54 minimum), orch, 1981; cond. Tabachnik, Cologne, 26 March 1982
Pour la Paix (Xenakis), SATB, 2 female spkrs, 2 male spkrs, tape (UPIC), 1981, version for SATB (32 minimum); cond. M. Tranchant, Paris, 23 April 1982
Serment-Orkos (Hippocrates), SATB (32 minimum), 1981; Greek Radio Choir, Athens, 1981
Chant des Soleils (Xenakis, after P. du Mans), SATB, children’s choir, 18 brass 6 (hn, 6 tpt, 6 trbn) or multiple, perc, 1983; Nord-Pas-de-Calais [simultaneous performance in several towns of the region], 21 June 1983
Idmen A/Idmen B (phonemes from Hesiod: Theogony), SATB (64 minimum), 4/6 perc, 1985; Antifona de Cluj, Les Percussions de Strasbourg, Strasbourg, 24 July 1985
Knephas (phonemes by Xenakis), SATB (32 minimum), 1990; cond. J. Wood, London, 24 June 1990
Pu wijnuej we fyp (A. Rimbaud), children’s choir, 1992; cond. D. Dupays, Paris, 5 Dec 1992
Vakchai Evripidou (Les Bacchantes d' Euripide), Bar, female vv (also playing maracas), pic, ob, dbn, hn, tpt, trbn, 3 perc, 1993; J. Dixon, cond. N. Kok, London, 1 Sept 1993
Sea-Nymphs (phonemes from W. Shakespeare: The Tempest), SATB (24 minimum), 1994; cond. S. Joly, London, 16 Sept 1994

Other vocal:
Tripli zyia, 1v, pf, 1952, unpubd
Trois poèmes (F. Villon: Aiés pitié de moy, V. Mayakovsky: Ce soir je donne mon concert d’adieux, Ritsos: Earini Symphonia [Spring Symphony]), 1v, pf, 1952, unpubd
La colombe de la paix, A, 4vv (SATB), 1953, unpubd
Stamatis Katotakis (table song), 1v, male vv, 1953, unpubd
N’shima, 2 Mez/A, 2 hn, 2 trbn, vc, 1975; cond. J.-P. Izquierdo, Jerusalem, Feb 1976
Pour Maurice, Bar, pf, 1982; S. Sakkas, C. Helffer, Brussels, 18 Oct 1982
Kassandra (Aeschylus), Bar + 20str psalterion, perc, 1987; Sakkas, Gualda, Gibellina, 21 Aug 1987 [second part of Oresteïa: see CHORAL]
La déesse Athéna (Aeschylus), Bar, pic, ob, E♭ cl, db cl, dbn, hn, pic tpt, trbn, tuba, perc, vc, 1992; Sakkas, cond. Tabachnik, Athens, 3 May 1992 [scene from Oresteïa: see CHORAL]

Dipli Zyia, vn, vc, 1951, unpubd
ST/4, str qt, 1956–62; Bernède Quartet, Paris, 1962
ST/10, cl, b cl, 2 hn, hp, perc, str qt, 1956–62 cond. Simonović, Paris, May 1962
Morsima-Amorsima, pf, vn, vc, db, 1956–62; cond. Foss, Athens, 16 Dec 1962
Analogique A, 9 str, 1958 [must be performed with tape work Analogique B]; cond. Scherchen, Gravesano, summer 1959
Amorsima-Morsima, cl, b cl, 2 hn, hp, perc, str qt; cond. Foss, Athens, 1962
Atrées, fl, cl, b cl, hn, tpt, trbn, 2 perc, vn, vc, 1962; cond. Simonović, Paris, 1962
Eonta, 2 tpt, 3 trbn, pf, 1963–4; cond. P. Boulez, Paris, 16 Dec 1964
Anaktoria, cl, bn, hn, str qt, db, 1969; Octuor de Paris, Avignon, 3 July 1969
Persephassa, 6 perc, 1969; Les Percussions de Strasbourg, Persepolis, 9 Sept 1969
Aroura, 12 str, 1971; cond. Tabachnik, Lucerne, 24 Aug 1971
Charisma, cl, vc, 1971; Royan, 6 April 1971
Linaia-Agon, hn, trbn, tuba, 1972; cond. Tabachnik, London, 26 April 1972
Phlegra, 11 insts, 1975; cond. Tabachnik, London, 28 Jan 1976
Epeï, eng hn, cl, tpt, 2 trbn, db, 1976; cond. S. Garant, Montréal, 9 Dec 1976
Retours-Windungen, 12 vc, 1976; Berlin PO, Bonn, 20 Feb 1976
Dmaathen, ob, perc, 1976; N. Post, J. Williams, New York, May 1977
Akanthos, 9 insts, 1977; Ensemble Studio 111, Strasburg, 17 June 1977
Ikhoor, str trio, 1978; Trio à Cordes Français, Paris, 2 April 1978
Dikhthas, vn, pf, 1979; S. Accardo, B. Canino, Bonn, 4 June 1980
Palimpsest, eng hn, b cl, bn, hn, perc, pf, str qnt, 1979; cond. S. Gorli, Aquila, 3 March 1979
Pléïades, 6 perc, 1979; Les Percussions de Strasbourg, Strasbourg, 17 May 1979
Komboï, amp hpd, perc, 1981; Chojnacka, Gualda, Metz, 22 Nov 1981
Khal Perr, brass qnt, 2 perc, 1983; Quintette Arban, Alsace Percussions, Beaune, 15 July 1983
Tetras, str qt, 1983; Arditti String Quartet, Lisbon, 8 June 1983
Thalleïn, pic, ob, cl, bn, hn, pic tpt, trbn, perc, pf, str qnt, 1984; cond. E. Howarth, London, 14 Feb 1984
Nyûyô [Setting Sun], shakuhachi, sangen, 2 koto; 1985; Angers, Ensemble Yonin-No Kai (Tokyo), 30 June 1985
Akea, pf, str qt, 1986; Helffer, Arditti String Quartet, Paris, 15 Dec 1986
A l’Ile de Gorée, amp hpd, pic, ob, cl, bn, hn, tpt, str qnt, 1986; cond. Kerstens, Amsterdam, 4 July 1986
Jalons, pic, ob, b cl, db cl, dbn, hn, tpt, trbn, tuba, hp, str qnt, 1986; cond. Boulez, Paris, 26 Jan 1987
XAS, sax qt, 1987; Raschèr Quartet, Lille, 17 Nov 1987
Waarg, pic, ob, cl, bn, hn, tpt, trbn, tuba, str qnt, 1988; cond. Howarth, London, 6 May 1988
Echange, solo b cl, fl, ob, cl, bn, hn, tpt, trbn, tuba, str qnt, 1989; H. Sparnaay, cond. Porcelijn, Amsterdam, 26 April 1989
Epcycle, solo vc, fl, ob, cl, hn, tpt, trbn, tuba, 2 vn, va, db, 1989; R. de Saram, Spectrum Ensemble, cond. G. Protheroe, London, 18 May 1989
Okho, 3 djembés, tall African drum, 1989; Trio Le Cercle, Paris, 20 Oct 1989
Ophaa, hpd, perc, 1989; Chojnacka, Gualda, Warsaw, 17 Sep 1989
Tetora, str qt, 1990; Arditti String Quartet, Witten, 27 Apr 1991
Paille in the wind, vc, pf, 1992; J. Scalfi, Woodward, Milan, 14 Dec 1992
Plektó, fl, cl, perc, pf, vn, vc, 1993; cond. R. Platz, Witten, 24 April 1994
Ergma, str qt, 1994; Mondrian String Quartet, The Hague, 17 Dec 1994
Mnamas Xapin Witoldowi Lutoslavskiemu [In Memory of Witold Lutosławski], 2 hn, 2 tpt, 1994; cond. W. Michniewki, Warsaw, 21 Sept 1994
Kaï, fl, cl, bn, tpt, trbn, vn, va, vc, db, 1995; cond. D. Coleman, Oldenburg, 12 Nov 1995
Kuïlenn, fl, 2 ob, 2 cl, 2 bn, 2 hn, 1995; Netherlands Wind Ensemble, Amsterdam, 10 June 1996
Hunem-Iduhey, vn, vc, 1996; E. Michell, O. Akahoshi, New York, 9 Aug 1996
Ittidra, str sextet, 1996; Arditti String Quartet, T. Kakuska (va), V. Erben (vc), Frankfurt, 4 Oct 1996
Roscobeck, vc, db, 1996; R. de Saram, S. Scordanibbio, Cologne, 6 Dec 1996
Zythos, trbn, 6 perc, 1996; Lindberg, Kroumata Ensemble, Birmingham, 10 April 1997

Solo instrumental:
Seven piano pieces without title, Menuet, Air populaire, Allegro molto, Mélodie, Andante, pf, 1949–50, unpubd
Suite, pf, 1950–51, unpubd
Thème et conséquences, pf, 1951, unpubd
Herma, pf, 1960–61
Nomos alpha, vc, 1965–6; S. Palm, Bremen, 5 May 1966
Mikka, vn, 1971; I. Gitlis, Paris, 27 Oct 1972
Evryali, pf, 1973; C. Helffer, Paris, 1974
Gmeeoorh, org, 1974; C. Holloway, U. of Hartford, CT, 1974
Psappha, perc, 1975; S. Gualda London, 2 May 1976
Theraps, db, 1975–6; F. Grillo, 26 March 1976
Khoaï, hpd, 1976; E. Chojnacka, Cologne, 5 May 1976
Mikka ‘S’, vn, 1976; R. Pasquier, Orléans, 11 March 1976
Kottos, vc, 1977; M. Rostropovich, La Rochelle, 28 June 1977
Embellie, va, 1981; G. Renon-McLaughlin, Paris, 1981
Mists, pf, 1981; Woodward, Edinburgh, 1981
Naama, amp hpd, 1984; Chojnacka, Luxembourg, 20 May 1984
Keren, trbn, 1986; B. Sluchin, Strasbourg, 19 Sept 1986
A r. (Hommage à Ravel), pf, 1987; H. Austbö, Montpellier, 2 Aug 1987
Rebonds, perc, 1988; Gualda, Rome, 1 July 1988

some works exist in one or more revised realizations

Diamorphoses, 2-track, 1957–8; Brussels, 5 Oct 1958
Concret PH, 2-track, 1958; Brussels, Philips Pavilion, 1958
Analogique B, 2-track, 1958–9 [must be performed with chbr work Analogique A]; cond. Scherchen, Gravesano, summer 1959
Orient-Occident, 2-track, 1960; Cannes, May 1960
The Thessaloniki World Fair (film score), 1-track, 1961
Bohor, 4-track, 1962; Paris, 15 Dec 1962
Hibiki Hana Ma, 12-track, 1969–70; Osaka, Expo 70, 1970
Persépolis, 8-track, 1971; Persepolis, 26 Aug 1971
Polytope de Cluny, 8-track, lighting, 1972; Paris, 17 Oct 1972
Polytope II, tape, lighting, 1974; Paris, 1974
La legénde d'Eer (Diatope), 4- or 8-track, 1977; Paris, 11 Feb 1978
Mycenae alpha, 2-track, UPIC, 1978; Mycenae, 2 Aug 1978
Taurhiphanie, 2-track, UPIC, 1987; Arles, 13 July 1988
Voyage absolu des Unari vers Andromède, 2-track, UPIC; Osaka, 1 April 1989
GENDY3, 2-track, Dynamic Stochastic Synthesis, 1991; Metz, 17 Nov 1991
S 709, 2-track Dynamic Stochastic Synthesis, 1994; Paris, 2 Dec 1994

The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 12 October 2020 01:51 (one week ago) link

That's... a lot of music.

The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 12 October 2020 01:52 (one week ago) link

I'm totally up for doing it but how do you think we should we tackle it? Should we limit ourselves to orchestral music maybe?

I guess I'd be lonesome (Sund4r), Monday, 12 October 2020 02:00 (one week ago) link

Heh, no kidding.

I honestly think we should do it wholesale, even if it takes a full year. I’ve been getting into a more patient listening groove lately...

pomenitul, Monday, 12 October 2020 02:05 (one week ago) link

Maybe pick about 45m-1h of music from all genres a week, going chronologically?

I guess I'd be lonesome (Sund4r), Monday, 12 October 2020 02:30 (one week ago) link

Sounds like a plan.

pomenitul, Monday, 12 October 2020 02:39 (one week ago) link

works for me

budo jeru, Monday, 12 October 2020 11:22 (one week ago) link

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.