the worst thing about orchestras

The sole democratic art form, in case you were wondering.

Anyway did you know that there are hundreds of orchestras across Finland? Every town has one.

Citation needed.

https://fmq.fi/articles/orchestras-for-all

Thanks. Bit of hyppiäbole going on itt.

Idk, what was the last new work you went to see a full orchestra perform?

I generally only see orchestra concerts I’m performing in (#flex) but every major American symphony debuts commissioned pieces every year. Plus, this question implies that the only music worth hearing in performance is new music, which is a 100% bullshit stance regardless of genre.

That Finnish website makes a good case for the cultural importance of its (state-funded) orchestras.

this question implies that the only music worth hearing in performance is new music, which is a 100% bullshit stance regardless of genre.

Djp otm. You want to criticize me for not keeping up with new work? Okay, demonstrate that you've listened to everything there is from every previous century and we'll talk.

Indeed, this is true in all the arts. I have a friend who is a decently successful playwright, and I recently caught myself apologizing to him because, given my limited budget and time to go to the theater, I still actively want to go see Shakespeare. Then I thought, wtf? Shakespeare is fucking great a lot of the time. I should not be apologizing for liking what I like.

So if I am not aware of the latest, crunkest, twerkest trend, friend: have you listened to all of Telemann yet? If not, stfu.

My friend Erik routinely enters contests for new pieces for a variety of instruments and he often wins and has orchestral ensembles play them live.

But also yes DJP otm

That's kind of a consumerist way to approach art. I get being afraid of becoming rockist and everybody ignoring new music in lieu of championing the same five works until the end of time but yee gods, who cares even if an orchestra specializes in centuries old pieces?

"yo u get the new Mozart cassingle?"

Personally I'm most attracted to rhythm and texture in music, so orchestral music doesn't interest me that much tbh. And I've always been interested in new music for whatever reason. This should not come as a surprise to anyone who's ever read my posts or heard music I've been involved in.

Okay, demonstrate that you've listened to everything there is from every previous century and we'll talk.

Well, I've made a pretty good study of jazz.

"Mozart Cassingle" is the name of my Falco tribute band, btw

Personally I'm most attracted to rhythm and texture in music, so orchestral music doesn't interest me that much tbh.

Ok this is the most wtf sentence I've read in, er, weeks.

that makes it sound like orchestral music is gelatinous

Obv orchestras have some of the richest textural resources available and there is no music without rhythm. Jordan looks for a groove ime.

But Stravinsky, Bartók, American minimalism…

Beethoven's "Mothership Connection"

xxxp knowing Jordan's work and history helps there, it totally makes sense to me. dude is a drummer!

Jordan, totally cool for you to be interested in what you're interested in and to like what you like!

Indeed, for me, that's the point - extending the same privilege to other listeners who are interested in what they're interested in and who like what they like. Even when they're "wrong." Perhaps _especially_ when they're "wrong."

But we can still have useful and interesting discussion about what art gets lionized, what art gets dunding, what art has popular support, what art gets critical/cultural accolades.

Dunding? Funding obv

I'd call it a stretch to say that the orchestral writing of the first two keeps the kind of regular groove like you might find in New Orleans jazz or techno. American minimalism certainly does but usually not in orchestral writing. xp to pomenitul

It's not as regular, sure, which I suppose is a dealbreaker for some listeners.

Most of it feels rather gelatinous to me actually.

I like some Morton Feldman and Bartok that I've heard, for sure, but a deep pocket is not really the point, which is fine. And we're talking about working with a limited set of textures, also fine, but there's a whole world of other possibilities out there.

And I'm sure people can point to orchestral music that's been influenced by various folk music from around the world, but I would rather just listen to that music for the most part?

I really didn't think my opinions would be that controversial here, but I'm not trying to take away from anyone else's enjoyment, enjoy your orchestras!

xp

I mean, your first post was pretty damn bitter and aggressive. I initially parsed it as satire.

Pekka Kuusisto said “500” to me and I just went with it. Or maybe he said 50. It was a long convo about how great the orchestra scene was over there.

“Gelatinous” is actually a super accurate word to describe an orchestra imo! And I love the sound of it and hate the sound of drum kits in the hands and feet of 99% of drummers

Interestingly Soviet communism was pretty decent to orchestral music, opera, and especially ballet - but it wasn't so good at promoting/supporting rock, punk, or new wave acts. I can't speak to Soviet communism's record as regards jazz, dub, house, EDM, ska, or rockabilly. Nor can I speak to Vietnamese or Chinese Communists' approach to supporting avant-garde bluegrass.

Shostakovich might have had something to say about the decency of Soviet communism with regards to classical composers.

Comparatively!

You've heard of Shostakovich, Baryshnikov, Pavlova.

But there was no mid-60s Russian invasion of adorable guitar-playing lads from Leningrad. There was no Moscow branch of CBGBs. Bowie didn't record an album in Vladivostok.

The Soviet music landscape was so eager for rock that it embraced Billy fucking Joel as if he were a glass of water in the desert. That should tell you something.

No, I don't disagree; it was "pretty decent" that I was questioning. If you don't know it, btw, Sabrina Ramet's Rocking the State is a p decent introduction to the history of rock music politics in the East Bloc.

(Plastic People of the Universe and Breakout obv classic.)

i think the government should fund more trolls to antagonize message board posters, the jazz fans ant the idm fans and the taylor swift fans, it's unfair that only the gullible classical fans get a shot

Russia already on it.

I think they have too much money given their role in society, and ideally that money would be better distributed, maybe in the form of grants to organizations & individuals that are building more accessible arts-related things in the community

― change display name (Jordan), Saturday, September 7, 2019 1:02 PM (yesterday)

In a lot of cities, the symphonies (as well as the other members of the classic SMOB -- Symphony Museum Opera Ballet -- that constitutes high art infrastructure) have all instituted programs geared towards accessibility, diversity, bringing classical musicians into impoverished urban schools, commissioning new works by artists from marginalized groups, presenting existing works by under-recognized artists from marginalized groups, etc. They have a fear of mortality. They need to reproduce the means of production -- in general, their supporters and patrons are getting old and dying off and they are trying to recruit younger generations of audience members and benefactors. This is why you have things like the San Francisco Symphony collaboration with Metallica, and the significant amounts of high art funding bestowed upon DJ Spooky.

Basically, when you're talking about funding for symphonies, you have several sources of income:
1. program income: earned income from ticket buyers, subscribers, recording contracts, etc. which doesn't cover anywhere near the total operating expenses

2. unrelated earned income: this is stuff like investment income from their endowments (they generally have these), or things like, concession stands, cafes and bars, and like, rentals of their facilities for corporate parties and income from a parking garage -- when business people end up running arts orgs or sitting on boards, they tend to promote these types of activities, because they understand parking garages and rentals.

then you get into the donations and contributed income which come from different sources like:

3. government grants -- the symphonies end up getting larger government grants than smaller organizations because they have larger budgets and the government tends to be a bit conservative in terms of "responsibility" and often will only give grants up to a certain % of budget size.

4. grants from charitable foundations & trusts -- this is where you see the most "innovation" in philanthropic trends -- government grant criteria and processes tend to stay the same for very long periods of time. Priority shifts, that then cause the chain reaction of arts organizations shifting their programming and structure, tend to come from the private sector philanthropists

5. individual giving -- self-explanatory

Sund4r, we cool; just sayin that if the folx upthread are suggesting that communism would result in better conditions for music and musicians, the burden of proof is on them.

Also

In a lot of cities, the symphonies (as well as the other members of the classic SMOB -- Symphony Museum Opera Ballet -- that constitutes high art infrastructure) have all instituted programs geared towards accessibility, diversity, bringing classical musicians into impoverished urban schools

My own personal mother (a ballet teacher, violinist, and concertmaster) currently does all these things and more with a chamber orchestra in St. Louis.

Sarahell otm

My friend did the SFO/Metallica concert! I think that kind of collaboration is appropriate in many cities with a certain concert-going demographic. In general my shorthand for soliciting collaborators with symphonies in my own limited curatorial goes like this, when talking with the board entity: “lots of people read Wire magazine and/or Wire magazine covers artists that lots of people will leave their house to see perform with a symphony”— facile, but makes the point

*curatorial capacity

I didn't want to put everything in one voluminous post -- there's more (re: more "equitable" distribution of money)

So, outside of individual giving, which is pretty much up to the person giving the money what conditions they put on the donation, how much they give, etc. and there isn't really any mechanism in place to force them to change their giving habits, though I guess you could go to Jeff Bezos' mansion, put a gun to his head, and make him transfer a million dollars to the bank account of a radical jazz ensemble --

So this re-distribution would be coming from government and private institutions (this includes corporate giving -- they generally have a department or separate entity that handles this).

And of course they have rules and procedures -- that tend to benefit large institutions like the symphony. In order to be equitable, government grants have applications and criteria and points assigned to those criteria and whether you receive funding depends on your score. They also have staff that manage the grant programs including the application and selection processes. If you have a paid staff person whose full-time job is applying for grants, (e.g. a major symphony will have at least one) you are likely to be many steps ahead of organizations where this is being done by a volunteer or a person who is paid to write grants, but also does your website, PR, orders office supplies, and spends an hour on the phone with tech support because the photocopier keeps getting paper jams.

Private funders can be looser about criteria and points, but a lot of the ones that are more relaxed about procedure, that funding is often relationship-based. So, you are dealing with, scheduling meetings with these people, attending their events, basically it requires a time factor that someone who isn't paid to spend that time ... they are at a disadvantage. Not to mention class issues, and the standard white cis-male supremacy stuff.

In terms of giving money to individuals -- this is one of those things that doesn't happen, often because of the requirements of the tax code, and it is legally easier to give to an organization rather than an individual.

And I love the sound of it and hate the sound of drum kits in the hands and feet of 99% of drummers

Same, most configurations of, and approaches to, the modern drumkit are really boring! That's why I love electronic music (limitless sounds), as well as the adaptation of the European snare drum & bass drum (by black musicians) in New Orleans second line music, which both pre-dates the drumkit and is way more interesting to me.

That's why I love electronic music (limitless sounds)

Too bad 99.99% of electronic musicians choose one of about three sounds from that "limitless" palette...

great insight, great thread

^^^^^^ 1000%

FPing a lot of cunts here

you'll pry my Roland handclaps from my cold, dead fingers

sarahell this is all so illuminating, thank you!

The Soviet music landscape was so eager for rock that it embraced Billy fucking Joel as if he were a glass of water in the desert. That should tell you something.

― And the wind... cries... Larry (Ye Mad Puffin)

yep, america would never fall for a snake oil salesman like billy joel

sorry, i failed the "no-snark challenge", anyway sarahell thank you for making those informative posts, it's always nice to see someone who knows what they're talking about in a thread like this

Air-guitars are bad, but air-maestros are even worse.

Well it's been years since I've said something controversial enough on the internet to get piled on like that, who would have thought it would be about orchestras!

Air-guitars are bad, but air-maestros are even worse.

Ha, I sometimes air-conduct without realizing it. It's sort of like head-nodding, mostly just feeling the beat.

Air-guitars are bad, but air-mattresses are even worse.