Everybody In The Place: An Incomplete History of Britain, 1984 1992 by Jeremy Deller

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qotJoCIhIjk

Fucking brilliant, this. Too much in it for me to draw out all that impressed me in this intro post but hopefully a bit of stimulating conversation will help.

Really impressed with JD's easy way with the teenagers and ease and subtlety of communication in general. Of course his enthusiasm!

Really loved him contrasting the disembodiment of individuals within society resulting from the mechanisation of the means of production at the time of the Industrial Revolution + subsequent emigration to cities w/// connection to nature in the Rave movement as being counter to that. Of course, Deller is 1st an artist, not a theorist so the connections remain vague but are thrillingly so, like when he compares the Kraftwerk photo to religious art.

Highlight: The Hitman and Her accidentally booking their live broadcast from an actual rave rather than a nightclub with vaudeville/1950s challenges etc. and the look on P Waterman's face.

Funky Isolations (jed_), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 12:51 (ten months ago) link

donwloaded this last night and really looking forward to watching it.

plax (ico), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 13:01 (ten months ago) link

Yeah, I loved this. Such a refreshing change from the usual nostalgic interview-based patronising guff.

mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 13:03 (ten months ago) link

Yeah it's refreshing to hear someone from that era putting it into a social history context. And especially someone quite perceptive and amiable and whose brain hasn't been turned to mushy peas from too many dodgy E's!

calzino, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 13:11 (ten months ago) link

I was surprised the New Dance Show footage with people dancing to Numbers (has been linked on ILM before too iirc) is apparently from 1991 not 1981.

nashwan, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 13:15 (ten months ago) link

yeah have to echo the praise, thought this was fantastic

devvvine, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 13:19 (ten months ago) link

Yup, this was brilliant, best thing I've seen in ages - incredible footage and tbh a bit shocking to see something with real thought and argument stuck in the comfort programming of the bbc.

woof, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 13:21 (ten months ago) link

watched this yesterday. a couple of sweeping generalisations notwithstanding (did exciting nightlife really not exist in the UK prior to 1986? Do young people these days really not know how to go wild and party?) I thought it was wonderful.

frame casual (dog latin), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 13:35 (ten months ago) link

did exciting nightlife really not exist in the UK prior to 1986?

Not a fraction as exciting as being at a rave, I'm sure.

The World According To.... (Michael B), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 14:05 (ten months ago) link

sure, but it wasn't all Butlins-style things like... I'm sure there was the odd punk gig or something. I do get the wider point though :-)

frame casual (dog latin), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 14:19 (ten months ago) link

Northern soul, disco, soulboys, mods etc etc

Boulez, vous couchez avec moi? (Tom D.), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 14:20 (ten months ago) link

Taking drugs to keep dancing all night, that wasn't invented in 1986.

Boulez, vous couchez avec moi? (Tom D.), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 14:21 (ten months ago) link

that said, yes, LOL at Strachers and Waterman looking sweaty and bug-eyed as though they're just about to come up on the eccies

frame casual (dog latin), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 14:27 (ten months ago) link

Really enjoyed the section with the bystanders arguing about the new age travellers too

frame casual (dog latin), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 14:28 (ten months ago) link

Deller admitted the connections he indicated were fanciful, poetic license. Still I expect a bunch of right wing churls will cite this programme as evidence of lefty academic propaganda while squirming over how relatively few white kids there appeared to be in the class.

nashwan, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 14:31 (ten months ago) link

Taking drugs to keep dancing all night, that wasn't invented in 1986.

it's not a historical documentary, it's a film made by an artist about the things that interest him and the ideas he has about them that connect them to other things he's interested in that also feature in this film.

Funky Isolations (jed_), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 14:33 (ten months ago) link

What a great doc.

Do young people these days really not know how to go wild and party?

The UK is not the USA, but here trends are firmly in the direction of young people staying in, for a host of reasons (and with effects both good and bad).

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 14:35 (ten months ago) link

xpost - to be fair the documentary needed some more wild connections, really.

also, the classroom framing device prevents him from talking about drugs.

Funky Isolations (jed_), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 14:44 (ten months ago) link

Yeah, a real treat -- even with flights of fancy, it was so NOT what we were expecting, namely some kind of talking-head 'and that was an amazing night!' parade. Funny thing is about half way in I said to Kate "Given everything he's mentioned he'll have to mention Spiral Tribe and Castle Morton" and about five seconds later...

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 14:51 (ten months ago) link


Taking drugs to keep dancing all night, that wasn't invented in 1986.

it's not a historical documentary, it's a film made by an artist about the things that interest him and the ideas he has about them that connect them to other things he's interested in that also feature in this film.

― Funky Isolations (jed_), Tuesday, 20

Very good but that's not what I was responding to.

Boulez, vous couchez avec moi? (Tom D.), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 15:23 (ten months ago) link

It was good that it didn't talk too much about a 'track that changed EVERYTHING' - in fact very little about specific music or artists; also drugs were mentioned very seldom.

frame casual (dog latin), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 15:39 (ten months ago) link

Supposedly the BBC put pressure on him not to go on about drugs.

I haven't seen it yet, but will very soon.

does it look like i'm here (jon123), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 16:33 (ten months ago) link

Totally naive question for those that know more than me (or better yet, were there). The dancers in these rave clips seem overwhelmingly if not exclusively white. Is that accurate, or were the gatherings more integrated than depicted?

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 16:53 (ten months ago) link

The dancers in these rave clips seem overwhelmingly if not exclusively white.

lol I thought this too. The contrast between the students in the classroom and then the opening clip of the kids standing in line is pretty striking.

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 16:56 (ten months ago) link

britain was very white

Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 16:59 (ten months ago) link

they were more integrated than depicted.

the clip of the kids standing in line is from blackburn, lancashire which at that time was 90+% white.

if you went to the m25 orbital raves it was a very diffrerent picture.

stirmonster, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 17:24 (ten months ago) link

Speculative but e.g. the Hacienda crowd in 1990 might've been 2/3 white at best in terms of diversity - same for any rave in the actual countryside by 92/93...at best. Could go up to 90%+ white depending where you were.

Only the dedicated soundsystem parties mentioned in the lecture in places like Moss Side (Manchester) or a few around London would've had more black than white participants having originated directly from the black communities in those cities.

nashwan, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 17:33 (ten months ago) link

Such a great doc. Made me tear up a little bit

I am using your worlds, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 17:47 (ten months ago) link

me too.

also - The Hitman and Her accidentally booking their live broadcast from an actual rave rather than a nightclub

I don't think it was an accident. They fully embraced rave culture, albeit they were slightly late to the party. The Hitman and Her was de rigeur late night weekend viewing for ravers even though they tended to play the cheesier end of the rave spectrum. But, Pete Waterman's label, PWL, did release some credible records such as Toxic Two's 'Rave Generator'. There were several '91 / '92 Hitman and Hers where Waterman was patently on E.

stirmonster, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 18:20 (ten months ago) link

Actually, I'd go even further and argue that one of the reasons rave music exploded amongst the 'working class' was because they were so primed for high energy dance music as that was thee soundtrack in nightclubs right across the north of England and Scotland in the late 80s and Pete Waterman's PWL had provided a high % of that soundtrack. Hi-NRG and Rave have so much in common but it is rarely discussed.

stirmonster, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 18:29 (ten months ago) link

oof he looks melted here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCXoWqPtwJM

Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 18:56 (ten months ago) link

haha! at 5:40
"we're gonna have a rave dj doing a bit of mixing, he's called carl cox"
"carl cox!...... oh right, forgot what we were doing then. carl cox"

Funky Isolations (jed_), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 19:13 (ten months ago) link

I do wonder why Deller chose to frame it that way, then. The truth is no less interesting a narrative.

Funky Isolations (jed_), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 19:14 (ten months ago) link

Maybe he perceived it to be that way? Also, it makes good telly; as you point out, he is an artist, not a theorist so it's ok for him to be a bit playful. there are a couple of other factual errors in the programme but i can happily let them them go precisely because he is not presenting it as definitive cultural theory.

i loved it and am not ashamed to admit i shed a ton of tears watching it. it is the story of my youth.

stirmonster, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 19:26 (ten months ago) link

:)

Funky Isolations (jed_), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 19:38 (ten months ago) link

I actually did the same at that Bicep Video for the track Glue.

Funky Isolations (jed_), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 19:51 (ten months ago) link

I had MASSIVE issues with this tbh:

a) really uncomfortable with Deller celebrating the act of capitalist entrepreneurialism where a black subculture was sold on to a white audience and the scenes at the end where the crowd was predominantly white made me feel uneasy, I get that Staines was featured to show that Tory cunts were in this as much as anyone but Deller seemed quite happy to just let this pass when in actual fact there is a huge gulf between the rave social utopia ideal and the practice of selling it as the ultimate Thatcherist business model

b) I was born in 1988 so i obviously wasnt there but people speaking about how rave culture was open and accessible to anyone seems insane to me - even though petrol was 34p a litre or whatever I can guarantee you that a weekend off your face on ecstacy and driving to raves involves a level of comfort and privilege in your life; I can hardly do it at 30 due to the pressures of everyday life and obligation, and I couldn't do it at 18, and the lack of imagination required to not understand why this might be problematic speaks to the class divide that definitely exists today

c) "what if phones but too much" at the end, where a bunch of old people looked at footage on youtube then used social media to complain about social media and people filming at modern day equivalents unlike the people who... filmed these events

The kids playing on synths looked fun though

boxedjoy, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 22:28 (ten months ago) link

I mean i also dont believe everyone who runs a clubnight is a capitalist opportunist pig but i also think its churlish to pretend it was all blissed out ideals, 30 years on and my own life experience tell me otherwise...

boxedjoy, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 22:31 (ten months ago) link

I

stirmonster, Wednesday, 21 August 2019 14:29 (ten months ago) link

i don't know where to begin with this.

House music was a black subcuture. Rave was a multicultural subculture. As you say, you weren't there, you weren't alive and I think you analysing it through the prism of 2019 'problematic' Identity Politics is downright moronic.

I had zero money then. I couldn't afford to buy E - it was £25 when it first appeared. I probably had £40 a week to live on. It didn't stop me fully participating in this culture and I also fully participated in every aspect of the Rave era while being mostly straight edge. It wasn't all about drugs abd you didn't need to be coming from a place of privilige to participate.

The Rave era was for many people the first time they were in a room and sharing a powerful, life changing experience with someone from a different class background, with a different sexuality, of a different race, in their lives. It had massive positive social impact and truly tore through the class divide more than any cultural movement in this country before or since.

Don't belittle or try to cancel something you patently completely fail to understand.

stirmonster, Wednesday, 21 August 2019 14:48 (ten months ago) link

i honestly don't think i have felt more patronised in my entire life.

stirmonster, Wednesday, 21 August 2019 14:51 (ten months ago) link

£25 E's were so expensive and if it turned out to be shit quality you'd be crying at wasting that much money, acid tabs and whizz were all I could afford most of the time!

calzino, Wednesday, 21 August 2019 14:56 (ten months ago) link

I didn't really sample really cheap and plentiful ecstasy till about 10 years later when my brother was buying huge amounts of crystal MDMA. That shit was amazing!

calzino, Wednesday, 21 August 2019 15:13 (ten months ago) link

I can guarantee you that a weekend off your face on ecstacy and driving to raves involves a level of comfort and privilege in your life

For real I had to get a Saturday job and find a friend with a car.

nashwan, Wednesday, 21 August 2019 16:50 (ten months ago) link

i was there (well, in leeds), and never once took drugs.
1 ltr of merrydown cider, and a few vodka/fresh orange, and boom, i was throwing shapes.
like stirmonster, i was flat f*cking broke, but totally soaking up the scene as much as possible.
loved the documentary.
found the classroom presentation so much more watchable that a bunch of z-list vox pops declaring how brilliant it all was.
also, the shock on the new kids faces when they realised that there were no phones, and everyone was just in their own space not giving a shit re videos appearing on social media.

mark e, Wednesday, 21 August 2019 17:14 (ten months ago) link

In the beginning, there was Jack, and Jack had a groove.

And from this groove came the groove of all grooves.

And while one day viciously throwing down on his box, Jack boldy declared,

"Let there be HOUSE!"

and house music was born.

"I am, you see,

I am

the creator, and this is my house!

And, in my house there is ONLY house music.

But, I am not so selfish because once you enter my house it then becomes OUR house and OUR house music!"

And, you see, no one man owns house because house music is a universal language, spoken and understood by all.

You see, house is a feeling that no one can understand really unless you're deep into the vibe of house.

House is an uncontrollable desire to jack your body.

And, as I told you before, this is our house and our house music.

And in every house, you understand, there is a keeper.

And, in this house, the keeper is Jack.

Now some of you who might wonder,

"Who is Jack, and what is it that Jack does?"

Jack is the one who gives you the power to jack your body!

Jack is the one who gives you the power to do the snake.

Jack is the one who gives you the key to the wiggly worm.

Jack is the one who learns you how to walk your body.

Jack is the one that can bring nations and nations of all Jackers together under one house.

You may be black, you may be white; you may be Jew or Gentile. It don't make a difference in OUR House.

And this is fresh.

stirmonster, Wednesday, 21 August 2019 18:50 (ten months ago) link

shivers all over.

mark e, Wednesday, 21 August 2019 19:00 (ten months ago) link

I can guarantee you that a weekend off your face on ecstacy and driving to raves involves a level of comfort and privilege in your life

It really doesn’t. It just requires a lack of commitments (or a lack of commitment to commitments).

the salacious inaudible (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Wednesday, 21 August 2019 22:54 (ten months ago) link

I'm not old enough to have gone to the original 90s raves but I went to plenty of free parties and outdoor raves in my early 20s and I definitely had no wherewithal whatsoever

frame casual (dog latin), Wednesday, 21 August 2019 23:20 (ten months ago) link

Are you sure about 25 euro pills in the late 80s? you would be the only person paying this.

paulhw, Thursday, 22 August 2019 00:59 (ten months ago) link

the morse episode is directed by danny boyle! and has a link back to pre-acid house style, proper-shoe-and-shirt clubbing in featuring "wild child" liza walker

Animal Bitrate (Raw Patrick), Friday, 23 August 2019 09:37 (ten months ago) link

ITS A RAVE, LEWIS!

The World According To.... (Michael B), Friday, 23 August 2019 09:43 (ten months ago) link

Any Jenkins was the ‘rave consultant’ on that episode and got the ‘This Life’ gig off the back of it.

suzy, Friday, 23 August 2019 09:43 (ten months ago) link

as a clash of incompatible worlds it's amusing but -- you'll be startled to learn -- not actually very good

mark s, Friday, 23 August 2019 09:48 (ten months ago) link

Lisa Walker, whatever happened to...

Boulez, vous couchez avec moi? (Tom D.), Friday, 23 August 2019 09:56 (ten months ago) link

Liza, rather.

Boulez, vous couchez avec moi? (Tom D.), Friday, 23 August 2019 09:56 (ten months ago) link

That Sun cartoon looks like something straight out of a Jack Chick tract!

Gavin, Leeds, Friday, 23 August 2019 10:29 (ten months ago) link

“Don’t Laugh” but it’s all “haw”s

what else are you all “over” (Champiness), Friday, 23 August 2019 11:07 (ten months ago) link

As far as multiculturalism goes, people now are quite taken aback in hindsight by how white club scenes were, but at the time people were amazed by the class barrier breakdown.

perhaps the scenes that got filmed give that impression but had they used footage of Rage at Heaven, Dungeons in Hackney or Thunderdome in Manchester or most of the M25 Orbital raves it wouuld have been a very different picture.

stirmonster, Friday, 23 August 2019 11:52 (ten months ago) link

Most of the UK is still pretty white tbh.

Boulez, vous couchez avec moi? (Tom D.), Friday, 23 August 2019 11:55 (ten months ago) link

xp
like this:
https://youtu.be/NSng4ZyAKWI

the salacious inaudible (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Friday, 23 August 2019 17:44 (ten months ago) link

To go back to various things people have said, I remember reading 'Altered State' by Matthew Collin when it came out (in 1997) and there was a section where a DJ (I can't remember who) said something like house music was very underground and almost nowhere played it and hardly anyone knew what it was and that when he tried to play it in clubs blokes would come up and shouted at him to turn off 'that gay music'. I think he was talking about 1986-87, the period immediately before the Acid House explosion, and I found it difficult to believe. I was only 13/14 then and obviously not going clubbing and would only have learnt about things from Radio 1 / Top of the Pops / Smash Hits, but I was well aware of house music - it was hardly obscure. As has been said, 'Jack Your Body' (which I bought) went to number one, and a month or two before that (unless I'm imagining this) even Mel & Kim's 'Showing Out' was marketed as house music.

the salacious inaudible (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Friday, 23 August 2019 18:15 (ten months ago) link

just remembered, when I was 12 our classroom at school had a rolling blackboard, and once I wrote ROK DA HOUSE on it in massive letters and rolled it round so that was on the back, and would only appear if a teacher rolled the board round again. lol what a rebel

Colonel Poo, Friday, 23 August 2019 18:44 (ten months ago) link

I think it depended where in the country you were. In Scotland in 1986 the soundtrack in mainstream, predominantly heterosexual clubs was to all intents and purposes gay. Hi nrg (and the tail end of Italo) was the predominant soundtrack and the first wave of house records fitted right in. I can't imagine anyone would have found them wildly out of place. Phil Harding's 12" mixes of Mel & Kim aren't that far removed from "Jack Your Body" and after "Jack Your Body hit no. 1 almost every pop dance 12" would have a sticker on the front saying "Contains House mixes", even though the mixes were rarely what anyone now would think of as House.

BTW, I'm not for a second claiming Scotland was a progressive paradise - Glasgow was still a deeply homophobic city when I moved here in 1986 which made the fact that many of these homophobes were predoninantly dancing to gay music quite an odd thing (Man 2 Man feat Man Parrish's "Male Stripper" is the best selling 12" of all time in Scotland).

stirmonster, Friday, 23 August 2019 18:46 (ten months ago) link

I think my experience is similar to Colonel Poo's*, albeit two or three years older. As a teenager I bought a lot of those singles on the kind of House-Hip Hop spectrum that existed then (Jack Your Body, Pump Up The Volume, House Arrest, Rok Da House, Theme From S-Express, Doctorin' The House, etc) but was too young to go clubbing so Acid House was just something I read about (or actually, I first heard about it in a special report on Capital Radio in maybe June or July 1988). By the time it had mutated into rave and I was actually old enough to go, I was an indie kid and it largely passed me by. I only started clubbing regularly in 1994.

*I will never not feel stupid typing that name

the salacious inaudible (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Friday, 23 August 2019 19:07 (ten months ago) link

Man 2 Man feat Man Parrish's "Male Stripper" is the best selling 12" of all time in Scotland

i think you've posted this fact on ilm before and it always makes me very proud

Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Friday, 23 August 2019 19:14 (ten months ago) link

Likewise. When Scotland becomes an independent country I think it would make a good basis for a new national anthem.

stirmonster, Friday, 23 August 2019 19:31 (ten months ago) link

lol

Funky Isolations (jed_), Friday, 23 August 2019 19:35 (ten months ago) link

either that or bits and pieces by artemisia

Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Friday, 23 August 2019 19:38 (ten months ago) link

as long as its not Loch Lomond as performed by Runrig

Thus Spoke Darraghustra (Oor Neechy), Friday, 23 August 2019 19:45 (ten months ago) link

once I wrote ROK DA HOUSE on it in massive letters and rolled it round so that was on the back, and would only appear if a teacher rolled the board round again. lol what a rebel

it's easy to rock: just bug and chill

quelle sprocket damage (sic), Friday, 23 August 2019 20:26 (ten months ago) link

love that story.

Funky Isolations (jed_), Friday, 23 August 2019 21:07 (ten months ago) link

a friend of mine wrote the affirmation "HOUSE PIANO IS THE BEST!!!" on his pencil case

quelle sprocket damage (sic), Friday, 23 August 2019 21:15 (ten months ago) link

:)

Funky Isolations (jed_), Friday, 23 August 2019 21:19 (ten months ago) link

https://imgur.com/wPKFHzo

Funky Isolations (jed_), Friday, 23 August 2019 23:02 (ten months ago) link

https://i.imgur.com/wPKFHzo.jpg

Funky Isolations (jed_), Friday, 23 August 2019 23:02 (ten months ago) link

if I didn't know better, that guy was a Steve Pemberton placed as a stooge

frame casual (dog latin), Saturday, 24 August 2019 07:20 (ten months ago) link

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-49126916

stirmonster, Saturday, 24 August 2019 08:45 (ten months ago) link

god i was in some club in Portsmouth about 89 and they put the strobe on for 10 minutes and i nearly fell over, stopped being able to move

what's wrong with being centre-y? (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 24 August 2019 08:48 (ten months ago) link

Loads of the whingeing old men looked like League of Gentlemen characters and the Tory MPs looked like absolute Rik Mayall caricatures of Tory MPs at that. Probably at least in part down to the graininess of the footage, people don't look that pallid on modern TV.

also as a side note I'm a bit surprised by the extent of 'I'm not British I'm a Londoner' sentiment in that classroom. mb the reluctance to raise hands was partly self-conscious classroom dynamics (exacerbated by being filmed) & obv it's not v scientific, but my hunch is that is says more about London than Britain, and if you asked that in a majority BAME high school outside the M25, even round Bradford or somewhere, you'd hear a more complicated, layered and less exceptionalist idea of identity (altho obv still ambivalent

I think you're right about this and I thought the decision to frame the documentary in this way was the most interesting thing about the whole doc (which on the whole was excellent). The way the kids started off looking largely a bit bored and "who the fuck is this?", most of that footage looked prehistoric in comparison and he'd chosen a classroom who people who in large part are probably the young people *least* likely to take drugs and go dancing in a field. I don't think rave culture as depicted there would have meant that much to these kids (even though rave music is everywhere for them) but you saw their eyes light up at the footage of people dancing to Kraftwerk - there's a direct line from that to modern Youtube dance culture and you could tell they just instinctively got it. Obviously playing with the instruments would have been awesome fun and the reaction of the girl in the hijab creating an acid line was amazing.

But the way they reacted to the history was different, I dunno how much they teach kids about the Miners' Strike these days (probably not at all) but you could tell they saw parallels immediately, the divisiveness, the authoritarianism, and with the rave footage the sheer paranoia of the British state. (As an aside it occurred to me you could probably have woven an entire third line in about football in there (particularly from Hillsborough to Italia 90) and it would have made just as much sense). And I think if you do grow up BAME or particularly Muslim in London then you are more likely to view a lot of the rest of the UK as suspicious or weird or even hostile, even if that isn't actually true, because the whole media message is that that's the case. For all London's many faults there's a sense of a protective bubble in its sheer hugeness. I know she'd only been to Oxford but that sense of sudden dislocation is pretty common I think.

I was 8-10 years old at the time and all that footage felt familiar to me, like I'd seen some of those exact BBC reports at the time, I could really tell that this was happening and it was something big and alien and exotic even if I wasn't actually that interested at the time. But most histories of rave skip tend to straight from Detroit and Chicago to UK acid house, the moment where house existed as a black British subculture tends to get skipped over and kudos to Deller for highlighting that, and the culture of house parties that preceded it.

Matt DC, Saturday, 24 August 2019 08:55 (ten months ago) link

Like I think several years' worth of 'Sadiq Khan has ruined London' rhetoric has set a very clear message to these kids about how the rest of the country views them which as well as being profoundly damaging to their self-esteem also distorts their idea of what the rest of the UK is like (even though know a chunk of the country actually thinks like this).

At the same time this felt like a fundamentally optimistic documentary, no matter how shit things are people can work together to force something into being that makes things better, if only for a bit.

Matt DC, Saturday, 24 August 2019 09:03 (ten months ago) link

the only bit that irked me was his meanness towards Pete Waterman which was kinda bullshit as pointed out upthread, it is on several tiers above most BBC output nowadays tho

what's wrong with being centre-y? (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 24 August 2019 09:06 (ten months ago) link

Yeah there's was a real Reithian feel to it which I'm sure was intentional.

Matt DC, Saturday, 24 August 2019 09:07 (ten months ago) link

kids reading Marx quotes was a stupid grin for me but FUCK YES

what's wrong with being centre-y? (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 24 August 2019 09:08 (ten months ago) link

also as ogmor pointed out nothing is more beautiful and succinct as "Fiorucci Made Me Hardcore"

what's wrong with being centre-y? (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 24 August 2019 09:10 (ten months ago) link

Yeah there's was a real Reithian feel to it which I'm sure was intentional.

― Matt DC, Saturday, August 24, 2019 9:07 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I really wanted to like this but was worried I might hate it. My main concern was that it would be a real auntie Grayson and auntie Beeb offering, and it was much much better than that.

I understood the anxiety about leaving the London bubble because I feel this for several reasons and definitely would much more if I was walking around with a hijab on my head.

Ultimately it is very uplifting, something I've been really needing for various reasons I won't go into, but I felt cheered by it, even the next day thinking back.

plax (ico), Saturday, 24 August 2019 10:46 (ten months ago) link

I think if it had actually been commissioned by the BBC and they had any creative input it would have turned out totally differently and been nowhere near as good.

I stopped thinking of myself as British quite a while ago so also found the 'I'm not British I'm a Londoner' sentiment in that classroom. particularly poignant.

stirmonster, Saturday, 24 August 2019 14:14 (ten months ago) link

There is a very old discourse about that, certainly in London. I suspect it has been interrupted and has had differing levels of traction within different "communities," but if you look at Menelik Shabazz's films about young black people, mostly around Brixton/South London from the late 1970s/early '80s there's a very similar rhetoric. Obviously the social and political context has been subject to huge transformations since then. Or has there? There must be longitudinal studies that focus on those kinds of shifts. Maybe the British social attitudes survey? My limited knowledge of that always suggests that the survey questions assume that you are the normative subject ("how do you feel about gays/blacks/immigrants/trans people etc?"), intrinsically fail to deal with different respondent positions, and consequently its maybe methodologically its ill-suited to this kind of question(? I'm not expert....)

plax (ico), Saturday, 24 August 2019 14:49 (ten months ago) link

I suspect this is something that's become more pronounced post-2010 and definitely post-2016.

Matt DC, Saturday, 24 August 2019 15:37 (ten months ago) link

https://youtu.be/JMS2xxVo2og?t=1414

This film is v interesting generally, and this idea is fleshed out much more throughout, but the most on-target bit is from 23:34

plax (ico), Saturday, 24 August 2019 16:06 (ten months ago) link

Plenty of Scousers have that 'I'm not British i'm from Liverpool' thing going on, I dare say it's the same in many other cities too.

piscesx, Saturday, 24 August 2019 17:19 (ten months ago) link

I have never heard a white British Londoner say that fwiw.

Matt DC, Saturday, 24 August 2019 17:31 (ten months ago) link

No me either.

piscesx, Saturday, 24 August 2019 17:46 (ten months ago) link

Used to be that Afro-Caribbean/Asian people were fairly happy to call themselves British but not English - being British is on its way out all over though.

Boulez, vous couchez avec moi? (Tom D.), Saturday, 24 August 2019 18:17 (ten months ago) link

I thought it was a great documentary. I am old enough to remember but I was far too indie at the time - I suppose I got a flavour of the scene in attending Meat Beat Manifesto and Orbital gigs circa 1991. As previously stated the documentary had to downplay the impact of drugs, the Daily Mail would have had a field day with "BBC spends your licence fee on sending remoaner lefty artist into school..."

Grantman, Sunday, 25 August 2019 09:50 (ten months ago) link

well in any case it was paid for by Gucci

plax (ico), Sunday, 25 August 2019 10:42 (ten months ago) link

Got around to watching the doco - Matos had spruiked it to me a couple of weeks before the thread, so I feel especially lax. The film does a dazzling job of expressing its theses and combining all those sources into a broadcast hour, but I loved Deller talking to the class so much that I wish it was a series, with him coming back to present material and ideas sparked by their interactions. (Even a two-hour version of this would have been richer. Or including half an hour of the classroom rave at the end for release.)

Whenever Deller's work has intersected my awareness, it's been where he's drawing lines between devaluation of the working class and the relief & expression afforded by music. EG the Acid Brass project in 1997, the All That is Solid Melts into Air installation in 2013 - which, when I saw it at the Manchester Art Gallery, was paired with an exhibition of local music artefacts, spanning punk through acid house, drawn from the collections of individual fans and participants, not archival collections. Here that element was obviously aimed at multiracial students who've spent three of their most socially formative years growing up in Brexit turmoil, but he's just good generally at combining talking to them on their level with a gentle authority, and making connections that bring history alive to them.

In Scotland in 1986 the soundtrack in mainstream, predominantly heterosexual clubs was to all intents and purposes gay. Hi nrg (and the tail end of Italo) was the predominant soundtrack and the first wave of house records fitted right in.

I got schooled on house during its UK pop breakout from an explainer in Smash Hits, that delineated Hip-Hop, House and Hi-NRG for kids that were suddenly needing to understand these new sounds. (The local edition was 93% content from the parent magazine, with an article or two on Neighbours stars thrown in - house made far less of a chart or radio impact in Australia.) That article clearly & calmly made the point that elements of Hi-NRG had fed into house, that house had in significant ways evolved from disco, and that these were largely gay musics being straightened up for a pop listenership.

(In another explainer around the time, Smash Hits happily informed its readers that Rob Halford was the only out gay man in Heavy Metal, a solid decade before US metal audiences were horrified to discover the Hell Bent For Leather hitmaker was hell bent for leather.)

Ppl who think Britain looks alarmingly white in that vintage footage, try 1993 Sydney on for size:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzaEC95zEYA

quelle sprocket damage (sic), Sunday, 1 September 2019 22:01 (ten months ago) link

The phrase "Let's get some guitars and have a party" has been haunting my thoughts lately

frame casual (dog latin), Monday, 2 September 2019 08:32 (ten months ago) link

nine months pass...

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/jun/30/off-their-heads-the-shocking-return-of-the-rave

I keep reading about how raves are set to come back in a big way. Not that illegal parties ever really went away but there feels like there's a different energy to way this has been discussed in the past few months - the idea of lockdown, and the obvious and correct perception of the UK as a country working on very clear lines of social inequality and cultural fury, contributing to a collective moment of communal escape and pleasure.

boxedjoy, Tuesday, 30 June 2020 09:50 (one week ago) link

Which is more deserving of scorn - young folk raving in the midst of a pandemic when social contact has been limited, or old 'clubbers' berating young folk for being irrespibsible. Tbh I'm not having any trouble answering this question for myself.

Noel Emits, Thursday, 2 July 2020 13:19 (one week ago) link


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