The Beths

they write good songs and play them very well

imo there’s no such thing as a cliche chord progression but ymmv

I mean, jingle writers write good songs and play them well. So if that's the bar...

is that a controversial opinion? idk, chord progressions are like sentences, they’re just building blocks, a “cliche” chord progression can be elevated by both craft and performance, which the beths have in spades

can jingle writers play their songs well? is a jingle writer as good of a drummer as the drummer for the beths? what a silly response sorry

xp Of course - I'm just saying, when they match those strengths to particularly ear-catching melodies the result is fantastic - my criticism is not meant to be a damming indictment. I enjoyed the album, but I *loved* Silence Is Golden. If I hadn't loved that song I wouldn't have bothered saying anything, just dismissed this as decently-written, technically excellent pop-rock

*damning

I agree in principle, but craft and performance isn't enough for me. There has to be a spark - a bolt of something indefinable (you know it when you hear it) - to elevate a song from competent to great. And I just don't hear that with The Beths. It's too pedestrian, safe, passionless. They're a paint by numbers pop group.

I have a theory that melodic preferences are hard-coded into us all and that they shape our musical opinions way more than anything else. I like my melodies baroque and twisty, and if not that then at least...tangy, y'know. So the main melody of say the title-track falls flat for me whereas for someone else it might be transcendent given the excellent pacing of the song (and there are a few interesting counterpoints in the second half, so I'm not ruling out it growing on me)

You may have a point imago. For me, it's harmonies. There are certain harmonies I find transcendent, and others that make me want to rip my ears off. I guess The Beths fall into the latter category for me with their vocal harmonies.

Well, as a Beths centrist, I'd say you could easily cobble together an album from their 3 records so far that I'd really like, but they're yet to quite do it in one. The musicianship alone, in a pop-rock context, will keep me trying

can jingle writers play their songs well? is a jingle writer as good of a drummer as the drummer for the beths? what a silly response sorry

― flamenco drop (BradNelson)

My point is that we expect more than just 'good songs played well' from the music we love. We want to be moved in some way. Good songs played well isn't enough. I can name so many songs that are catchy and well produced that either do nothing for me, or annoy the hell out of me. Technical competence in both songwriting and performance just isn't the bar for me.

Glad I brought some silliness to your day though ;)

I also don't feel the spark, and I find the lead vocals to be actively not-good/unpleasant (even in an "indie rock" context) - but that's obv a big YMMV.

That said, the above-discussed chorus harmonies on "Best Left" are one of the few aspects that DO connect w/me – so I'm clearly coming from a different place here

idk i’m v moved by the title track from the previous record, “jump rope gazers,” and i think this whole nebulous notion of “spark,” “being moved,” etc. is contained within my use of “craft”

i shouldn’t be surprised that there’s someone out there who thinks the beths are overrated but literally everything about your critique smacks of overstatement to me, like your problem is with power pop as a genre or something and not the band itself. they’re clearly better than a high school band

The chorus vocals in Best Left are very Trail Of Dead if anything, which I approve of

(obviously TOD are informed by religious upbringings so Christian rock is probably a mixed-feelings touchstone - whether it is here too I have no idea)

Those choruses remind me a little of one of my favorite early-2010s bands, which I think no one else here likes (but I wish they did!):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpTaMrFEpBE

the title track and "2am" are wonderful. I was always meh on this band but those tracks are pretty undeniable imo

literally everything about your critique smacks of overstatement to me, like your problem is with power pop as a genre or something and not the band itself. they’re clearly better than a high school band

― flamenco drop (BradNelson)

I get that you don't like my rhetorical choices, and that's fine. I did say they sound like quite a good high school band, though! And I agree their musicianship and songwriting are very solid (perhaps not lyrically, but def musically). They just don't seem to have a broad range, like they're stuck listening to the same records they loved since they were 13.

I like me some power pop just fine. One of my favourite Kiwi acts is The Mint Chicks, who wrote some incredible power pop songs with a clear debt to The Buzzcocks (another band I enjoy, along with The Cars, Ramones and others). Is it my favourite genre? No, and mainly because it's fairly limited and thus hard to innovate in. I'm not saying innovation is the be all and end all, but little surprises certainly do help my enjoyment of music. There's not enough little surprises in The Beths to captivate me.

Silence is Golden is a pretty good tune, I'll admit.

the idea that a band that has put out tracks like "silence is golden" and "out of sight" is just making passionless paint-by-numbers power pop is ridiculous

of course they're not doing anything particularly new but the sheer craft is on another level compared to most in the genre, even contemporary indie rock more broadly

& do not at all understand where any of the complaints about the vocals are coming from

Good to see some dissenting opinions in a thread that had started to become a bit of an echo chamber for us stans.

I do agree with Brad that a lot of these critiques sound like complaints about the genre as much as complaints this specific band. Power pop isn't really a hotbed of innovation - it definitely places more value of good execution of ideas that have already been done to death. It's comfort food.

I have a hard time describing this band to ppl bcz on paper they DO seem sort of paint-by-numbers but there is a je ne sais quoi about them, the harmonies are so perfect, the melodies are so perfect, they make so many smart and efficient decisions in their songwriting and instrument playing. They’re kind of like The New Pornographers where they do something seemingly simple but they do it so fucking well that when you step back and go “wait, surely there are tons of other bands that sound like this but WHO?” you can’t come up with anything bcz no one is doing it nearly as well as they are.

otm damn

this band is the epitome of a bolt of something indefinable that elevates songs from competent to great

lol just the other day I described this band to a friend with the exact words “new zealand new pornographers”

I’m not necessarily the world’s biggest New Pornographers fan, but I’ve always thought of their songwriting as fairly sui generis.

“2am” really moved me. God damn.

I think what they do that’s hard to define (and maybe I’m still not defining it) is use the most intense sonic dynamics of punk and power pop to build drama. Not just a sense of drama; drama. And it elevates the lyrical content, like how some Motown lyrics might have looked simplistic on paper, but when that sound hits the emotion hits for your whole life (not saying they’re in Motown territory, just an example).

To me they're loosely kind of part of the continuum of everything old is new again. My brain immediately also says, hey, there are a million bands like this. And there may be, for all I know, but my brain goes there because I am old and there *did* used to be a million bands like this ... 30 years ago. A lot of the Teenbeat/Simple Machines stuff, some Sarah stuff (maybe like Heavenly), and so on, all the way through, I dunno, stuff like Dressy Bessy or whatever. Same with a band like Beach Bunny, who I also like. Of course, being from New Zealand, the Beths are part of a parallel continuum of all the great guitar pop bands from that country, too.

they are a phenomenal live band but i forgot my earplugs

opening act hans pucket, who pearce has produced for, were also excellent

Well "2am" just ripped my heart out and stomped on it. I'm going through a painful breakup right now, the "hard to let go" kind, and it hits pretty close to dead center. Pretty close.

Listened to the album 3 or 4 times yesterday, it's a really good album in the sense that almost every song is good and they work together musically and thematically. Stronger links and weaker links, sure, but they're operating at a high level of craft.

Stevie Deux otm

i have to say, as a mega-stan, i appreciate where Ghost Club is coming from with the paint-by-numbers, the lack of broad range, the "still listening to the records they loved when they were 13" comments. i don't agree w/ the conclusion, but i can at least see how those could be valid thoughts.

and i also think Stevie hit the nail on the head here: "this band is the epitome of a bolt of something indefinable that elevates songs from competent to great"

last thought: it is *highly* predictable that the backlash would begin now, with this third album coming out and getting significantly more attention. they were still a pretty small band/draw heading into the pandemic and the release of Jump Rope Gazers! they had a whole American tour booked in small rooms that got canceled, and now the venues have at least doubled in size, maybe more.

the only bad thing about the beths is that second album cover art

Is there a backlash in real life?

I woke up on a 26th side of the bed yesterday in an attempt to scientifically determine if my bed is a problem, and the album did sound better. I think it’s just really hard music to listen to when you don’t feel great, right now. I feel that way about most of their music and much of pop music in general. I only want to listen to gravel sifting through a long descending tunnel that leads to the bottom of the ocean

If a bunch of people on earth feel that way and there’s a huge backlash against music with properly formed chord progressions, please send them my way. I’m that house that smells like garbage, over there

I only want to listen to gravel sifting through a long descending tunnel that leads to the bottom of the ocean

Try this, KM: https://markmolnar.bandcamp.com/album/mark-molnar-saturns-son

Anyway, after a couple of listens, the album is very good! Good to see them branching out a little within the relatively narrow confines of the genre - more solos, more sonic variety, a little more harmonic complexity (thought I was hearing secondary dominants?).

I'm probably in the minority of really liking the second album cover, and not caring much for the cover of the new one. But that's mostly because I don't really like the choice of having big white text on top of a fairly bright and light looking image, and I don't like the out of focus flowers on top of fish. Whereas I as really like the shade of orange on the second cover.

Think this might be their best of the three? Chris L otm with his invocation of "drama": the band is super talented at assembling things in a way that feels exciting.

Looks like this show/tour film wasn't posted yet, it's a nice time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-JyAYfgC6c

do sund4r thanking you :D

somehow “xp” was autocorrected to “do”

I agree with Josh that there used to be more bands that give you this same feeling. I think over a long period of time, not just in music but in several of the arts, there's been a turn toward emphasizing self-expression more than craft. That is, people are more interested in getting their ideas out and creating idiosyncratic little objects rather than working in the continuum of a particular genre or tradition. This might just be a consequence of more voices being heard and seeking to break down "traditional" forms of art, or it might be something else. But The Beths seem like a group that's interested in refining the strengths of their particular genre to create an emotional impact, although I don't know whether or not they'd see it that way.

obvious chord progressions

There's not enough little surprises

thanks for proving to the board you don't have ears

There's definitely a type of listener that values innovation, and appreciates bands/albums that expand their horizons ("I don't hear anything I haven't heard before"). And for this type of listener, I can see where The Beths just aren't exciting.

It's a little harder for me to get in the headspace of someone who's repelled simply by a familiar chord progression, but I'm sure that they comprise like 50% of ILM.

I doubt there's a real life backlash. The backlash around here is pretty much me, and apparently I don't have ears.

I guess you're all wrong about Silence is Golden. I said it's a pretty good tune, so it must be rubbish.

i think it's fine to have preferences. but as Brad alluded to, you felt the need to do a patronizing bit about how this band would be a "good high school band". there's not really a need to present your criticisms as some extension of your superior, more sophisticated musical tastes. if anything, the fact that somebody might call this music "ordinary" speaks to the wizardry of the songwriting and arrangements. to me it also suggests that people who would say that wouldn't have really been listening

I woke up on a 26th side of the bed yesterday in an attempt to scientifically determine if my bed is a problem, and the album did sound better. I think it’s just really hard music to listen to when you don’t feel great, right now. I feel that way about most of their music and much of pop music in general. I only want to listen to gravel sifting through a long descending tunnel that leads to the bottom of the ocean

― Karl Malone

speaking as a fellow depressed person yeah music doesn't sound as good when i'm depressed

honestly this is the big reason i've only listened to _dots and loops_ all year, i don't _enjoy_ music, i don't enjoy _anything_, the best i can get out of a record is to hear it and say "yes! this is why life is terrible!"

which was why i liked crying when listening to "2am" and why i am listening to saturn's son right now. i am not crying but it is really painful to listen to and i don't think i deserve to listen to music that is any more melodic than this.