thread to track Poptimism 2.0

steven hyden has no sense of irony does he

― lowercase (eric), Wednesday, February 7, 2018 7:20 AM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

he lacks a lot of sense

and humor. Does he think "study Kim Kardashian’s collected philosophical scrolls" will have the Default Smart Opiners slapping their knees and going, "This'll knock'em dead"?

You'd be surprised!

He really does fill that role of craft beer philosopher for a sea of middle class rock music fans quite successfully, for better or worse.

well the position that elevated him to 'importance' was one where he was hired to be klosterman ii so...

Yeah, Hyden is not the guy to talk about coasting on received wisdom.

xp with grawlix, and seriously

anyway i think tim is pretty OTM about this. and it's certainly not only millennials who can get drawn in by the oxytocin rush of likes and retweets and "social media popularity." if anything "legacy music critics" (which is also a fairly nebulous term!) are probably more susceptible to it because it's proof that they're not out of touch despite their bosses' needling and editors' turning down of their pitches. (probably worth noting: having that thought just made me google "eric garland age.")

I still have yet to locate this mysterious distinguished 60-year-old male critic for a paper of record who writes I'M SCREAMING on social media

The screaming is DEAFENING!

— Bob Lefsetz (@Lefsetz) June 17, 2012

funny, but that's not the same and everyone here knows it

maybe they're secretly Russian trolls like large swaths of the internet are turning out to be, who knows

'twas merely a jokey interlude, do carry on

it's not simply writing I'M SCREAMING, katherine. surely you know, even in your seemingly endless crusade to prove that concern about the way music journalism (and journalism as a whole) is going is merely ageism and nothing else, that there's a spectrum of effects here. although if you want to see adults trying on the lingo they perceive to be "of the youth," i suggest you look at any media outlet's snapchat story.

I don't think it's just ageism, but I do think it's displaced resentment: resentment that's really about a certain group of people existing and saying things. this resentment happens to be the exact same resentment shared by the most reactionary parts of the world, and is often phrased in the same terms. I don't know how many times I have to rephrase this until it gets across.

and yes, I'm invested in this, given that I am part of the wave of writers who have supposedly ruined everything for everyone.

katherine, again, literally one person in this thread was doing that

at this point it's been, what, five threads across three days, all because people didn't like a mediocre-to-terrible Justin Timberlake album and thought some plausibly racist elements about its elevation were plausibly racist?

given that I am part of the wave of writers who have supposedly ruined everything for everyone

no offense but a lot of your re-triangulating of peoples' arguments seems to be an attempt to bait people into saying exactly this to you, even though nobody really thinks it!

I still have yet to locate this mysterious distinguished 60-year-old male critic for a paper of record who writes I'M SCREAMING on social media

Well, me neither. This is a a misrepresentation of what I said. What I was saying is that music critics (whether they’re “legacy” or not, that doesn’t really come into it) increasingly seem like they’re writing for that kind of response. I just feel like it’s getting harder for writers to represent their thoughts and feelings on music honestly when they know that saying the “wrong thing” can set off a firestorm against them. But this is just my perception of course. So, a question for the music writers here: how much do you think about a potential social media response to a piece before posting it? And how have you dealt with any social media backlash you’ve had to a piece? FWIW, I think the writers who also happen to post here demonstrate more honesty and integrity than the writers of the kind of pieces I’m referring to here.

I also resent the accusation that I’m arguing that “new music writers are SJW cucks” thing. Come on, now. I don’t believe that at all. I think social media is having a huge impact on music writing, so I just want to have an honest discussion about what those impacts are.

like there are a lot of STRUCTURAL CHANGES IN THE WAY JOURNALISM IS MADE AND CONSUMED at work here that go far beyond "we hate the kids"* and it's frustrating that you're continually recentering the argument so that it's writer-focused

*if anything it's "fire all the executives and also nationalize google"

The sum total of my thoughts about the potential social media response to anything I write is to lock my account before anything gets posted so I can at least cordon off the angry tweets about my writing ability and sometimes my appearance to a place where they do not bombard me in the office. I forgot to do this for the Grammys piece because I was too sleep-deprived, and ended up regretting it.

oh and nationalize facebook too obv

thread to track Poptimism 2.0 katherine

Thread to Defend Justin Timberlake Against The Mean Millennials doesn't exist yet

ah, yes, it was definitely the rogue millennials and not the gen-xers and xennials assigning, editing and dictating the editorial visions of outlets they own and run

i mean if you're getting shitty dms that sucks but to me your replies from the post-grammys scrum look pretty positive? 'magnificent' and 'powerful' are pretty great compliments and ones that not many people receive

This is where the benefits of being a niche writer covering niche music really show up.

how much do you think about a potential social media response to a piece before posting it?

Not at all.

And how have you dealt with any social media backlash you’ve had to a piece?

This has never happened to me.

The sum total of my thoughts about the potential social media response to anything I write is to lock my account before anything gets posted so I can at least cordon off the angry tweets about my writing ability and sometimes my appearance to a place where they do not bombard me in the office. I forgot to do this for the Grammys piece because I was too sleep-deprived, and ended up regretting it.

didn't you get into a fight with some shitty nu-metal band recently lol xp

didn't you get into a fight with some shitty nu-metal band recently lol xp

Ha! You're right - I forgot all about that. They wound up printing my piece on a T-shirt, I believe, which I thought was kind of awesome. (They didn't send me one, though, which sucked.)

time for us to all take to twitter to @ that band with "send unperson the shirt, you cowards"

The idea that young social justice forward millennials love the discursive status quo seems like a massive assumption on katherine’s part to me.

I've seen countless variations on young justice-oriented people saying "stop wasting time arguing whether Taylor Swift is a white nationalist when ICE are rounding up children in hospices", etc. There are too many cases that look like publications taking important social-justice conversations and monetising them with incendiary thinkpieces that are probably written in good faith but cynically commissioned to capitalise on the angry reaction they're going to cause, often with the kids writing them hung out to dry.

Katherine, you mention getting abuse for your work *a lot* on here. Do you think you are more open about this than others? Because if being a (female) critic in 2018 means being harassed (with misogynistic bullshit I presume) for every single thing you write, it's even worse out there than I thought.

belatedly: it's a matter of degrees. I get more of it than writers who do not write about pop artists with easily provoked fanbases -- the appearance stuff, I think, was about a Fifth Harmony review, although it could well have been for a Halsey or Jessie J or Christina Aguilera review -- but I get way, way, WAY, way less than other female writers, I think (I obviously don't have a full slate of it). And the most actively malicious actors, as far as writing about music goes, tend to... focus? (that's the wrong word, and the gruesomely wrong word) on other writers. and I probably get less overtly misogynistic stuff and definitely do not get the racist harassment others do. this disclaimer should probably go on every time I mention it.

I don't know that I'm more open about it; it just has bothered me more and more as I get older

No, you don't need to stick a disclaimer on it at all. It's still harassment, even if others may have it worse. It's a matter of degrees probably, but it's both harassment and both completely wrong. I get you'd be an easy target for bile coming from a pop star fanbase, which sucks but is probably not as invested or substantial as either critique or harassment. It's gruesome but I fear the word 'focus' is all too real in the instance you describe.

What a world, though.

i've noticed you say that before, Katherine, and I'm sorry it happens. For what it's worth, i feel pretty fortunate to sit on the sidelines and watch music debate between those I consider to be exceptional writers and thoughtful debaters. Katherine, Maura, deej, unperson, Whiney, Tim...I know about a tenth of what any one of you know so it makes me feel like a bit of a student (or, to put a more self-flagellating spin on it, a dilettante...since I have zero commitment to any one area of music interest.)

anyway fuck those jerks, if I ever see a Katherine byline I read it.

Yes, good discussion.

omar little much, much more than a dilettante imo

https://media.giphy.com/media/6g4tyNc0VEGiI/giphy.gif

also, one of your threads from 13 years ago got bumped on ile today. an excellent thread about birdshit. just fyi

Damn, that one is a classic joint from my dearly departed twenties.

anyway, sorry if I upset anyone

Katherine I was intrigued by your comments above about feeling part of a "wave" of writers disrupting the role of legacy music critics.

Is that merely a timing thing (i.e. anyone who started writing after a certain point in time is part of the wave) or do you see your approach to music writing as meaningfully distinct?

the term "legacy music critics" interests me too. What does it mean in 2018 -- the equivalent of music crit tenure insofar as this is possible?

It's probably a function of first writing about music online myself (though scarily this was now almost 20 years ago), but I feel like the gulf between what I would consider to be "my generation" and people who got their start in the 70s through 90s is at least as distinct as any gulf vis a vis Internet 2.0 writers.

Though of course there's not really "gulfs" per se, rather an endless succession of shifts which different writers alternately embrace, reject or ignore (or some occasionally convoluted and contradictory combination of all three reactions).

just to keep everyone informed - brad quit ilx over an incident last night - can those of you who are friends with him maybe persuade him back to ilm at least, with the promise of emo and hugs or something :(

him/them/brad :)

What incident?

Oh never mind, I know what it was.

It's probably a function of first writing about music online myself (though scarily this was now almost 20 years ago), but I feel like the gulf between what I would consider to be "my generation" and people who got their start in the 70s through 90s is at least as distinct as any gulf vis a vis Internet 2.0 writers.

I had a discussion about this with (I guess) former ilxor xhukh at one point, and it seems to me there were at least 3 generations of pre-internet music critics:

• Old Fucks Who Started It All (Marcus, Landau, Marsh, Christgau, Meltzer, Bangs, etc.)
• 70s Rolling Stone Crew (Cameron Crowe, Jaan Uhzelski, etc., etc.)
• 80s Voice Writers and Assorted Brits (Greg Tate et al.)
• 90s Kids (too many names to mention here, and I suppose this is where I fit in, since my first paid byline was November '96)

Is that merely a timing thing (i.e. anyone who started writing after a certain point in time is part of the wave) or do you see your approach to music writing as meaningfully distinct?

It's a timing and demographic thing, I'd date it to around 2010 or so