Dad-Pop? : Where do you stand on Crowded House?

Erm, you wouldn't per chance rate them Dr.C? ;)

No, honestly. Crowded House strike me as the kind of band I will end up liking for their high quality song craft (incidentally high quality song craft and dull dad-pop seems like a non-choice to me, har). At the moment I don't like them one bit.

Split Enz: if you're not severe metal (Krokus) or cult soul (Klymaxx), please spell your name correctly. Dud.

I most often listen to them when I write. Unobtrusive, yet catchy, their songs make perfect pleasant background music that you might want to sing along to occasionally.

I would never force anybody else to listen to them, and honestly, I don't know I would want to spend time with some one who considered Crowded House their favorite band. But try to take them away from me and you'll draw back a bloody stump.

Crowded House was hit and miss for me. Together Alone was a really nice album, I thought, but no one else seemed to like it. The rest I can take or leave, but make sure you keep the abyssmal "Chocolate Cake" single the hell away from me.

Now on-topic: erm...nothing to add.

search - 'four seasons in one day'

What can I say? He got it right first time. A real Johnnie Walker / Richard Skinner / Roger Scott / Bob Harris band. Now quintessential boomerised Radio 2 fodder. Henceforth, dud, but not offensively so, just boringly so; they don't bring forward any opinion from me. But, yeah, dud.

Tom is right : hi-quality songcraft and dull dad-pop are indeed the same. although it's funny how 'craft' is sneered at when applied to song-writing, but is OK when it means layering up samples or slaving over a hot turntable. Hardly any good music comes effortlessly, although it sometimes sounds that way. I don't mean Crowded house are any good, by the way.

My football prediction: Sol Campbell to stay at Tottenham, to be joined by Teddy Sheringham, but not Petit. And Spurs to finish about 7th next season. I've a feeling there could be a shock result tonight.

Fulham will be pretty active in the transfer market as well. ;)

But don't you already like 'high quality song craft' (if not the Crowded House variety)? But seriously, won't you still like the things you like now when you're 40? And if not, why not?

I blame Ned. Even if he didn't start it. I know him. He has powers.

Great game. I went for a walk with my daughter when L*****l went up 2- 0 came back it's 3-1, I sit down and before I know it's 3-3. Nice to know there are still games like this one. LFC would have won on penalties anyhow, only the Dutch are worse penalty-takers than the Spanish.

Second up: Tom E, you are wrong to equate 'finely-honed song-craft' with 'dull dad pop'. OK, we could take a detour into Stevie's very good, well-put, and largely unexplored, point about how 'adult pop' might be a good thing - we really ought to take that detour soon. But for the meantime, I'm going to put that aside, assume that we are talking denigration, and say, Tom, for heaven's sake, you are really out of order here. Why is it OK to slag off - en masse, and with no discrimination - songwriters who think for 5 minutes about what they're doing and are interested in how melodies work, when anyone who slagged off DJs, hip-hop producers, Geri Halliwell's publicists, or whatever, would be machine-gunned at 200 paces? And how would you like it if I said something like 'All computer programmers from Oxford are boring bastards?'

OK, refinement of my comments - drawing attention to 'songcraft' is perhaps the parallel of what I was talking about in the pop thread i.e. drawing attention to producercraft. Whether this is a reason to talk more about songcraft or less about producercraft is up to the individual reader.

I've now even written about Lloyd Cole on FT to assuage your ire.

And while I'm not exactly happy with my job, I'm not a computer programmer, so you can abuse Oxford computer programmers as much as you like.

Shocking attitude Tom. First they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I said nothing. Then they came for the freemasons, but I was not a freemason so I said nothing. Then they came for the trade unionists, so I said nothing. Then they came for Dani Behr, and said 'She's over there, hiding in the cupboard'. etc.

Tom:

>>> drawing attention to 'songcraft' is perhaps the parallel of what I was talking about in the pop thread i.e. drawing attention to producercraft.

I think I understand this - in the pop thread you were saying it was maybe a (slightly) bad thing for people to do that, right? In fact, if memory serves, you were saying that it was a way of denying emotion (or rather, a way of talking that didn't really do justice to emotion); so you're saying that talking about song-craft has roughly the same effect?

But then this -

>>> Whether this is a reason to talk more about songcraft or less about producercraft is up to the individual reader

- has me a tad stumped.

Naturally and predictably, I would rather talk more about the former and less about the latter, at least insofar as the latter means the kind of producers that interest you. But to be honest I'm still not sure I understand this comment.

>>> I've now even written about Lloyd Cole on FT to assuage your ire.

You mean FT exists?

>>> And while I'm not exactly happy with my job, I'm not a computer programmer, so you can abuse Oxford computer programmers as much as you like.

Hey, everybody! We can abuse Oxford computer programmers as much as we like! Who wants to start?

There is a bigger issue here, somewhere, about the way that certain ways of talking about music - which concern sound, texture, atmosphere, rhythm, technology, plus contexts and reception - have, on one hand, provided a tremendous enrichment of the critical vocabulary (visible, I guess, in a lot of what people write on FT / ILM), but have also displaced a sense of 'the song' as a unit of attention, or even a belief in 'the song' as an autonomous entity (I think I mean: analytically relatively autonomous from the other things I just mentioned). While I think the enrichment is (like I just said) terrific, I feel out on a limb in terms of conceptions of the song, because in my world 'the song' is still the primary unit of thought about music, and I have what might - probably pejoratively - be called a 'Platonic' sense of it. As I have in part said before, the only alternatives are musicology proper (to which I am inadequate) and earnest lyrical analysis (which I have argued in the past is largely inappropriate and should, indeed, be integrated into a more holistic sense of what's going on in a musical track or situation). So I still think that something is missing from the critical vocabulary.

I need to think this through more.

Mark S, and everybody else, will be unsurprised to hear that I don't know what 'Get Your (Ur, was it?) Freak On' (?) is.

I changed my mind but didn't edit the post.

if earnest, sincere & heartfelt = "boring" then all aboard the boring train to dadtown

plenty of mystery and danger on Together Alone, to my ears, but that's not really why I love Crowded House, or that album most of all theirs.

Just put Woodface on and skipped straight to... 'Whispers and Moans'! I get this song in my head quite a lot whenever I think of this LP... this and 'Tall Trees', for some reason. What's with the shouting part at the end, though!?

"She Goes On"!

Man, 'Chocolate Cake' surely must rank as one of the worst things they ever did. Still, even now, I can't believe that of all the songs on Woodface, they somehow decides that 'Chocolate Cake' should be the fucking lead single. I heard that 'It's Only Natural' was originally slated as the lead single but they changed their minds (or lost their minds, IMO) ... and to put it as the opening track, too!

*decided

"Chocolate Cake" must surely reek.

I never heard "Chocolate Cake" on college radio even though it climbed to #2 on the modern rock chart. I did hear "It's Only Natural" a lot that early fall though.

'Weather With You' was probably the biggest hit off the record here... I don't recall seeing the video to 'Chocolate Cake' until well after it was released. I don't think I ever heard it on the radio.

It couldn't have done 'em much favours in the US, either ("and the excess of fat on your Anerican bones/will cushion the impact as you sink like a stone" ... ouch!)

I'm guessing that Tim was mostly the driving force behind 'Chocolate Cake' ... it doesn't feel like a Neil song to me at all.

Saw Chocolate Cake on the Chart Show when it was released, memorable song but no hit. Never understood all the hate it gets

Love "Chocolate Cake." Could have done with more of that darkness & spikiness resulting from Tim's sojourn in the band. (Given how that silly vs sardonic vibe fit Hessie's personality, it would have been interesting if a Tim / Paul cowriting element had sprung up, should Tim have been able to stay: the two were roommates during their overlap in Split Enz, I just remembered while typing this sentence.)

I like/love all Crowded House and Finn solo to varying degrees, but the other day I was reminded of Christgau's massive antipathy toward the group and I was trying to figure out why. The conclusion I came to is that Neil Finn is a great melody guy, good with hooks and gorgeous stuff, but maaaaaaybe not the best songwriter, in the total package sense. Hmm, that's harsher than I mean, since I love his songs. Maybe it's that he's not a particularly memorable lyricist, there's no wit or smarts or much more beyond the most general of things going on with his words. Which is not a problem, really - again, I like/love all Crowded House and Finn solo to varying degrees - but it helped me understand how someone might not like them so much, or how one might approach them as a cult act rather than a proper pop act. Back to Christgau, he mentions pretension, iirc, but that's actually something I think Neil Finn lacks, and, ironically, what maybe makes him fall short for some (but not me).

Anyway, in some ways the first 7 Worlds Collide live album is a great entree. It's a sign of his respect from fellow musicians that he could get Johnny Marr, a chunk of Radiohead, and Eddie Vedder, among others, as his support band. Lately I like his first two solo albums best. For CH, for some reason I've always gravitated toward Temple of Low Men.

One of my faves of his:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN8lJmZpZYA

Another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVoNbOJpIYU

I like/love all Crowded House and Finn solo to varying degrees, but the other day I was reminded of Christgau's massive antipathy toward the group and I was trying to figure out why. The conclusion I came to is that Neil Finn is a great melody guy, good with hooks and gorgeous stuff, but maaaaaaybe not the best songwriter, in the total package sense. Hmm, that's harsher than I mean, since I love his songs. Maybe it's that he's not a particularly memorable lyricist, there's no wit or smarts or much more beyond the most general of things going on with his words. Which is not a problem, really - again, I like/love all Crowded House and Finn solo to varying degrees - but it helped me understand how someone might not like them so much, or how one might approach them as a cult act rather than a proper pop act. Back to Christgau, he mentions pretension, iirc, but that's actually something I think Neil Finn lacks, and, ironically, what maybe makes him fall short for some (but not me).

idk "Can't Carry On," "Don't Dream It's Over," lots of stuff on Woodface -- good words. Christgau's rancor is overwrought.

Maybe it's that he's not a particularly memorable lyricist, there's no wit or smarts or much more beyond the most general of things going on with his words.

Distant Sun is a great lyric. A lot of the stuff on Together Alone is really memorable and thoughtful to me. Christgau dislike a lot of great stuff.

It's weird, I think a lot of his lyrics work, and I like a lot of them, but I'm not sure how many of them are more than just kind of vague place holders. Honestly, when it comes to Neil Finn I have trouble balancing my own fandom with anything close to objectivity. As far as I'm concerned all his lyrics are memorable, because I remember them.

But, like, take Neil Finn buddy and frequent tourmate Paul Kelly. I think Paul Kelly is a brilliant lyricist, but a lot more meat and potatoes when it comes to melodies and songs.

I should stress that I find the vague elusiveness of many of Finn's lyrics appealing myself. They don't get in the way, and in a general sense help him convey his particularly brilliant brand of melancholy, especially in songs like "Don't Dream It's Over," or "Four Seasons in One Day," or "Distant Sun," that sort of thing. But when I think back to his several albums with Split Enz, several albums with Crowded House, several solo albums and side projects, dozens of dozens of great songs, there are only a few lines that ever jump out at me. Even then, "My possessions are causing me suspicion but there's no proof" is a great but meaningless line, imo. Of all his stuff the opening couplet of deep cut "In The Lowlands" always stands out: "Oh hell, trouble is coming/Out here in panic and alarm." That's a great start, very evocative, but I'm not sure it ever pays off. Not that it needs to! But if the (to me) prima facia pleasures of his voice and melodies don't do it for you, I don't think there's much else to convince the unconvinced. Which iirc was Christgau's argument: hooks are easy. Not coincidentally, I've heard Finn say the same thing, that the tunes and melodies come easy, but that he struggles with the words.

Most lyrics by anybody are vague place holders!

Of all his stuff the opening couplet of deep cut "In The Lowlands" always stands out: "Oh hell, trouble is coming/Out here in panic and alarm."

I'm glad you like this one too; I find myself humming it every few months. But it wouldn't stand out without his singing or the arrangement.

I've always really loved Distant Sun because of the way he seems to balance mulling over the challenge of keeping a long-term relationship strong and resonant with this chorus that evokes the idea of romantic love as larger-than-life rapture or magic - to go from "Tell me all the things you would change / I don't pretend to know what you want... No fire where I lit my spark / I am not afraid of the dark" to "Seven worlds will collide / whenever I am by your side / And dust from a distant sun / Will shower over everyone" is just brilliant to me, and very affecting.

I am soppy as all get-out though, so.

Nobody's mentioned "Fall At Your Feet" -- this is definitely their POO moment. The harmonies on the chorus are just sublime. It's the type of thing that catches the attention of people who are only passively listening to the song.

Mind you, this is coming from an admitted fan of dull dad-pop. And even I lost a lot of respect for the band after I recently watched the video for "Something So Strong".

I love when the harmonies go faaaalllll and Froom (or Tim Finn?) play that simple keyboard part.

And even I lost a lot of respect for the band after I recently watched the video for "Something So Strong".

aww they're adorable

Directed by Alex Proyas, said video.

I said in the Paul Hester RIP thread a decade ago that this video is one of the few convincing period depictions of guys in videos who look like they genuinely love each other.

Christgau's argument: hooks are easy.

I'd like to thank hit songwriter and the Dean Ween of music critics - Robert Christgau - for this observation.

From "Crowded House: Something So Strong", By Chris Bourke:

'Something So Strong' was also directed by an Australian, Evan English, but the band have mixed feelings about the excruciatingly wholesome clip. 'It ended up looking like a commercial for margarine,' says Nick...
The intention of English, a left-winger, was to 'tap into the soft, white underbelly of middle America,' says Neil... 'I think it looked a bit much like a toothpaste commercial myself.'

Ah, thanks for that. Proyas directed at least one early video IIRC.

Hester's backflip is a bit much. Remind see of that Greil Marcus line about Terence Trent D'Arby's deeply rehearsed laugh in "Wishing Well."

Nobody's mentioned "Fall At Your Feet" -- this is definitely their POO moment. The harmonies on the chorus are just sublime. It's the type of thing that catches the attention of people who are only passively listening to the song.

Yeah, the harmonies on that song are sublime, but the strange thing about that song is the middle eight, where if you listen closely to the backing vocal, you realise it's shouting along with the lead vocal but mixed so it sits behind the lead.

Yeah, Fall At Your Feet is another winner. Finn is just such a great singer. His voice suits his material perfectly.

A keeper from the comeback record:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vto40GYUNY8

Excellent Johnny Marr co-write off the comeback:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Oi9w7DgDiY

Just for fun - funn - Finn and Marr doing "There is a Light:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNYL1gitgm8

jesus why does Marr insist on cutting his hair in the least flattering manner

See: this thread: T/S: Aging Mod Dudes vs Aging Punk Dudes

Neil Finn buddy and frequent tourmate Paul Kelly.

"frequent" if you mean "they played together on all 21 dates of a month-long collaborative tour, once"

Dude, when Crowded House toured America behind Woodface I'm pretty sure Paul Kelly opened up on every date. They've been sympatico and in sync for a long time.

Actually, maybe it was around the time of the first Crowded House LP, which is more or less when Gossip was released. Anyway, they played together plenty of times.

^^^ Johnny Marr was still in his "I invented Oasis" phase which affected his hairstyles and dress sense for an agonisingly long duration

I rank those albums.

really smart likening of Dream to Live to Tell! worth posting from a tent in the middle of the Serengeti.

he's just so damn good

Shoutout for 'Private Universe' — I approve.

LOL re "Chocolate Cake". Such a mess.

I really liked Temple of Low Men as a tween (premature Dad-ish tastes?) but the likes of "Mansion in the Slums" and "Sister Madly" (a big hit on radio locally) got old quickly. Perhaps I preferred the lyrical "vague placeholders" elsewhere. I'd definitely add "In the Lowlands" to the "keeper" column, at the very least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZggTaHMoQYs

This is pretty hip stuff for Crowded House, closer to the spirit of Split Enz in some ways. I've gotta assume Neil was nudged a bit by his two sons, who are both in the band, as well as the return of Froom.

Another good new one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HGjvQxGxNQ

They're really flaunting the lack of social distancing they need to do in NZ :)

New songs are much in the vein of the Pajama Club album:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDff0Mjvij8

Both points make sense, given more than half of the band is Finn and his family! But yeah, Australia and NZ seem to be pretty good, strict travel restrictions aside. Even Froom is out there, iirc I remember reading about him flying over and quarantining in advance of a series of live dates.

"come to the Island, where we can save our souls"

This is a good news day for us in Crowded House. Following a move of alert level 3 to level 2 last night, we are now free to gather in a room here at Roundhead Studios and play music, what a joy! Mitchell Froom and Nick Seymour have been released from 2 weeks’ quarantine this morning (after multiple negative swabs) and both are now present in this very room. We are together again.