Where is the infamous Rolling Stones sample in "Bittersweet Symphony" ?

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I know it's not the main orchestral hook. So where in the song is it?

Manny Parsons (Rahul Kamath), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 18:40 (eighteen years ago) link

The song was "The Last Time" - uh, you have to hear it to recognize it - it's hard to get by just remembering the song ...

dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 18:45 (eighteen years ago) link

It's not on an actual Rolling Stones album, right? It's off one of those "Orchestral Rolling Stones" albums that were oh-so-popular in the late 60s.

Aaron W, Tuesday, 29 October 2002 18:47 (eighteen years ago) link

I know that song, but I don't hear it anywhere in the song. I was wondering where specifically it was in the song.

Manny Parsons (Rahul Kamath), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 18:48 (eighteen years ago) link

It was off an orchestrated version of the song on a very obscure record put out by Andrew Loog Oldham, who was behind the legal bollocking they got.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 18:49 (eighteen years ago) link

actually, if you get to listen the original loog oldham version where they took the sample from, it makes the whole fucking song!
r. ashcroft only had to throw his 'deep' lyrics over it, and it was done.

joan vich (joan vich), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 18:54 (eighteen years ago) link

i love the verve's song, fwiw

joan vich (joan vich), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 18:54 (eighteen years ago) link

The Andrew Loog Oldham "Last Time" slows down the melody significantly -- it sounds virtually nothing like the Rolling Stones song.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 19:22 (eighteen years ago) link

actually, if you get to listen the original loog oldham version where they took the sample from, it makes the whole fucking song!
r. ashcroft only had to throw his 'deep' lyrics over it, and it was done.

So it's not a minor part of the song? I was given to understand that it was nearly inaudible.

Manny Parsons (Rahul Kamath), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 19:27 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah, i thought it *was* the main orchestral hook ...

brains (cerybut), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 19:46 (eighteen years ago) link

So it's not a minor part of the song? I was given to understand that it was nearly inaudible.

Nah, otherwise they would've taken it out and saved themselves a whole lot of trouble...and they would have actually made money from the song, and maybe it wouldn't have gotten sold to Nike or whoever for a shoe commercial. Did you guys in the UK have that commercial?

teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 19:48 (eighteen years ago) link

It's worth pointing out that the real person behind the Stones' financial rape of the Verve was Allen Klein (not Oldham), and the irony becomes even more cruel when one takes into account that the Stones ripped off their version of "The Last Time" from the Staple Singers. The Stones credit "The Last Time" to Jagger/Richards, despite it's obvious note-for-note bite of the original. So an orchestral version of a song they stole gets used by the Verve, and Klein steps in to demand money (as if the Stones don't already have enough). So the Stones - arguably the least creative artist involved - get all the money and get to piss on everyone else's songs, while Pops Staples gets nothing and Richard Ashcroft is forced to sell their song to Nike.

One more reason to loathe the Stones.

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 29 October 2002 20:17 (eighteen years ago) link

allen klein later, after the stones, in happier times, with the beatles

http://www.keno.org/lennon_images/BeatlesAK.JPG

steve k, Tuesday, 29 October 2002 20:39 (eighteen years ago) link

argghhh fuck Allen Klein! Fuck him in the ass with hot pokers!

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 29 October 2002 20:55 (eighteen years ago) link

Allen Klein demands money for HIMSELF - ie he OWNS the pre-1970 Stones back catalogue, not Jagger/Richards.

Andrew L (Andrew L), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 21:20 (eighteen years ago) link

Doesn't the confusion here arise from that part of the orchestral version (which I admit I've not heard) not bearing much resemblance to anything the Stones did, presumably just an idea that the orchestrator came up with? As part of the orchestrated version of "The Last Time" it presumably becomes the legal property of Jagger/Richards even though they had nothing to do with producing it? Of the various potential claimants to the royalties I'd have thought the orchestrator had the best moral claim, although legally he presumably singed these away as part of his contract.

ArfArf, Tuesday, 29 October 2002 21:45 (eighteen years ago) link

AMG says that the sample isn't the main hook.

Rahul Kamath (Rahul Kamath), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 22:04 (eighteen years ago) link

I've heard the original orchestral version and "Bittersweet" lifts directly from it. It's totally obvious.

Chris Barrus (xibalba), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 00:46 (eighteen years ago) link

The sample runs through the whole song.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 00:52 (eighteen years ago) link

Any chance of putting this song on the net? (the orchestral song, obv)

Ian SPACK (Ian SPACK), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 00:56 (eighteen years ago) link

I have it. I'll put it up.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 01:02 (eighteen years ago) link

Here it is.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 01:11 (eighteen years ago) link

Thanks Jody! You rock.

Yeah, this definitely isn't a minor sample; it pretty much makes up most of "Bittersweet Symphony," although it seems like the Verve probably souped the sample a little bit. And this song hardly sounds like "the Last Time" at all! WTF!

Rahul Kamath (Rahul Kamath), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 06:48 (eighteen years ago) link

:$ = jody

boxcubed (boxcubed), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 07:19 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah that confirms what I've always assumed, that the reason BS doen't sound like the Stones is because the orchestral version they sampled didn't sound like the Stones in the first place. I've always assumed the sample was the main part of the tune because I doubted The Verve could come up with anything that good on their own. Although kudos to them for spotting the potential of something so obscure.

ArfArf, Wednesday, 30 October 2002 09:39 (eighteen years ago) link

Although kudos to them for spotting the potential of something so obscure.

Eh, I'm sure they stole the idea from someone else. Well-executed idea, though.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 12:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Aside from the fact that sample is a huge part of the song its a pretty fine piece of pop. A friend of mine worked in the local Tower Records when Bittersweet Symphony came out and said the reaction was amazing. They got it and put it on the stereo and within half an hour they sold every copy of it and the entire back catalog of Verve stuff that'd been sitting there for ages.

tigerclawskank, Wednesday, 30 October 2002 12:23 (eighteen years ago) link

"Eh, I'm sure they stole the idea from someone else."

Well the thought had ocurred that the idea might have been picked up by someone else on its way, but I have no way of knowing so I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. I doubt I've listened to much of the kind of stuff The Verve were listening to, so plenty of people would know more about this than I do.

ArfArf, Wednesday, 30 October 2002 17:31 (eighteen years ago) link

hurrah for Jody.

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 19:16 (eighteen years ago) link

''Well-executed idea, though.''

what's the idea. to have a string section play the thing and then have ashcroft 'suffering' over the top of it.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 21:51 (eighteen years ago) link

Well, yeah.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 21:53 (eighteen years ago) link

I must say the whole thing does work startlingly well.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 21:58 (eighteen years ago) link

hahaha...OK, its VERY bad idea.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 22:26 (eighteen years ago) link

But it's well-executed!

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 22:28 (eighteen years ago) link

Jody, stop beating me up woman!

yes OK OK ARE YOU HAPPY NOW!!!!

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 22:32 (eighteen years ago) link

Happier than a pig in shit, Julio.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 22:36 (eighteen years ago) link

Surely it's not well executed ie THEY GOT BUSTED!

david h (david h), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 23:12 (eighteen years ago) link

thanks for that Jody. I'd always been curuious about it. Hey anyone know what Armand Van Helden sampled for that track " You don't know me"?

dsico (dsico), Thursday, 31 October 2002 05:10 (eighteen years ago) link

the strings are from Carrie Lucas 'Dance With You' (from 'Carrie In Danceland' LP), if that's the sample you mean

michael (michael), Thursday, 31 October 2002 13:54 (eighteen years ago) link

dickie ashcroft should certainly be well executed. what do you reckon? guillotine? ducking chair? hung, drawn and quartered to the sound of the hollies? increase his capacity for freeform input by garotting his soul-surfeited skull with the innards of bombed anacanthus sympathisers?

Denise Lambert, Thursday, 31 October 2002 14:01 (eighteen years ago) link

six months pass...
Darn. JBR took the sample down.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 12 May 2003 20:35 (seventeen years ago) link

the illegal art webpage has a huge host of mp3's of source/destination sample song tracks: http://www.illegal-art.org/audio/historic.html

wire>elastica (this one makes me very very mad), gilbert o'sullivan>biz markee, queen/bowie>vanilla ice, roy orbison>2 live crew, 'stones'>verve, willie dixon>led zeppelin even.

happy to see the site's still up and running.

jleideck, Monday, 12 May 2003 20:49 (seventeen years ago) link

"We sampled four bars. That was on one track. Then we did 47 tracks of music beyond that little piece. We've got our own string players, our own percussion on it. Guitars. We're talking about a four-bar sample turning into 'Bitter Sweet Symphony' and they're still claiming it's the same song."

All hail fucking Ashcroft.

Evan (Evan), Monday, 12 May 2003 21:16 (seventeen years ago) link

eight months pass...
Revive!! I just now heard the orchestrated "Last Time" song (it's on Boom Selection) and I realized, much to my chagrin, that it is NOT the immensely-hummable "Doo Dwee Doo Dwee Doo Dwee.. DWEE DOO DWEE... DWEE DOO DWEE" hook!! I remember hearing a song on the radio about a year ago, and the minute I heard it, I said to myself, "Man, this song REALLY sounds like the main melody to 'Bittersweet Symphony'"! But now I can't remember what it was! Can anybody help me!?

Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Monday, 19 January 2004 04:07 (sixteen years ago) link

The main melody of "Bittersweet" is not a sample at all, but it is a rather crude embellishment on the pre-existing RS orchestral piece. This is bullshit:

"We sampled four bars. That was on one track. Then we did 47 tracks of music beyond that little piece. We've got our own string players, our own percussion on it. Guitars. We're talking about a four-bar sample turning into 'Bitter Sweet Symphony' and they're still claiming it's the same song."

Adding tracks and instruments does not change the fact that the whole song, start to finish, is written very tightly around those four bars. The keys and changes are all in that sample. No sample, no song. He deserved to be sued.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Monday, 19 January 2004 07:17 (sixteen years ago) link

Er... I take that last part back. ABKCO surely has enough money.

But it should be known that "Bittersweet Symphony" is not driven by some kinda brilliant pop songwriting, but rather by a simple sample. Too many people still give Ashcroft wayyyy too much credit for it.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Monday, 19 January 2004 07:21 (sixteen years ago) link

Oh for fuck's sake, there's loads going on in that song that isn't in the sample, which as far as I can tell only appears 'clean' in the intro, and even then with nice production touches. Sod 'creativity' just hear the results.

Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 19 January 2004 09:55 (sixteen years ago) link

The main melody from Bitter Sweet Symphony is the same as "Well I told you once and I told you twice" from the stones' "Last Time" anyway.

mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 19 January 2004 11:01 (sixteen years ago) link

Now, I just don't hear that AT ALL.

I don't care how much is Verve and how much is the Stones, "Bittersweet Symphony" remains one of the best singles of all time.

Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Monday, 19 January 2004 13:43 (sixteen years ago) link

word

mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 19 January 2004 13:49 (sixteen years ago) link

I feel like people who complain about this sample probably don't know who Eric B and Rakim are...but probably felt their heart break when they watched the "where Daft Punk got their samples from" youtube video

iatee, Thursday, 30 April 2009 20:27 (eleven years ago) link

this is a good song and i don't like the rolling stones very much

To make a comparison, this isn't, like, Puff Daddy taking the entirety of "Every Breath You Take" and having someone sing the melody of the original in the background with a chorus. It's the CHORDS, for god's sake.

Naive Teen Idol, Thursday, 30 April 2009 20:28 (eleven years ago) link

consequently when they hear the original they overreact in the other direction

yeah I just did this

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 30 April 2009 20:30 (eleven years ago) link

t's the CHORDS, for god's sake.

lolz so we're gonna start complaining about stealing chord progressions now? you gotta be kidding

shit was shocking as fuck back then (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 30 April 2009 20:38 (eleven years ago) link

No we're not, that's my point.

Naive Teen Idol, Thursday, 30 April 2009 20:39 (eleven years ago) link

ah. I wasn't sure.

shit was shocking as fuck back then (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 30 April 2009 20:42 (eleven years ago) link

It's pretty silly to be against sampling per se, but in general, I trust my own ears, and I trust other people's ears. If the original sounds too much like the thing that sampled it, or vice versa, why should the one who sampled it get any credit? I can think of other instances where I've gone back and heard the song someone sampled from and there was a pretty clear difference. This is not one of those cases. The sad fact is, everything that makes Bittersweet Symphony appealing comes directly from that sample. Stuff like the Vanilla Ice & Puff Daddy tracks are just stupid. They merely exploit the fact that a lot of folks will not have heard the originals.

Earl of Gothington Manor (Bimble), Thursday, 30 April 2009 21:00 (eleven years ago) link

The sad fact is, everything that makes Bittersweet Symphony appealing comes directly from that sample.

Severely disagree. Most of the song's appeal comes from its almost dance-like adjustment of level, additions of layers, etc.

sorry for british (country matters), Thursday, 30 April 2009 21:11 (eleven years ago) link

"They merely exploit the fact that a lot of folks will not have heard the originals."

Wait you actually think there is a single human being on this planet that hasn't heard "Every Breath You Take"?

Alex in SF, Thursday, 30 April 2009 21:15 (eleven years ago) link

Actually, I think the percussion in BSS might be its secretest, strongest weapon.

sorry for british (country matters), Thursday, 30 April 2009 21:19 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah, what most people think of when they think of that song is the string riff...which didn't come from the sample. Or the vocal parts: "It's a bittersweet..." and "Don't change/I can change."

The hooks all come from Verve. There's a good argument that they wouldn't have come up with them without the sample in the first place. But that's it.

I'd say the Stones should have gotten a third to half of the music credit. But all the credit—while it may be the "legal" thing—is neither fair no accurate.

Naive Teen Idol, Thursday, 30 April 2009 21:20 (eleven years ago) link

I think the lyrics + vocal hook + the string riff are the main appeals here, altho there are a whole lot of nice audio-candy touches to it (the percussion, the squalling guitar feedback bits, etc.)

f the original sounds too much like the thing that sampled it, or vice versa, why should the one who sampled it get any credit? I can think of other instances where I've gone back and heard the song someone sampled from and there was a pretty clear difference.

the key problem here is that what constitutes "a clear difference" is totally a matter of perspective. There are rap songs that are just straight loops of Atomic Dog or More Bounce to the Ounce and some people wouldn't consider a guy talking about how awesome he is over that loop "a clear difference", while the rest of us would beg to differ... context is everything. the fact is the Verve took this little-known recording and recontextualized it in a way that obviously captured a lot of people's imagination. That the song credit reads "written by Jagger/Richards, performed by the Andrew Loog Oldham Orchestra, with vocals by Richard Ashcroft" (<<<<this is literally what it says in the Urban Hymns liner notes) is just beyond fucking ridiculous.

shit was shocking as fuck back then (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 30 April 2009 21:32 (eleven years ago) link

yes

the thing that bugs here is that the Verve did play by the rules, signing over the publishing to Jagger / Richards just to be safe, and then the manager of the band decided to go for MORE. and got it! it's just an absolute case of there being no safe way of making music in this way, there's only lawyers and greed. it's a total outrage, and an incredibly unhealthy decision for music, regardless of what any one person thinks of this song, this decision to me is just as frustrating / depressing as this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeport_Music,_Inc._v._Dimension_Films

Milton Parker, Thursday, 30 April 2009 21:43 (eleven years ago) link

Wait you actually think there is a single human being on this planet that hasn't heard "Every Breath You Take"?

Haha, yes.

Earl of Gothington Manor (Bimble), Thursday, 30 April 2009 21:54 (eleven years ago) link

I meant the planet Earth btw.

Alex in SF, Thursday, 30 April 2009 21:57 (eleven years ago) link

the thing that bugs here is that the Verve did play by the rules, signing over the publishing to Jagger / Richards just to be safe, and then the manager of the band decided to go for MORE. and got it!

Working with Allen Klein is like trying to invade Russia during the winter. You might believe that things will be OK at first, this time for sure, but you WILL lose and you WILL be left with nothing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Klein

Carroll Shelby Downard (Elvis Telecom), Thursday, 30 April 2009 22:05 (eleven years ago) link

Pretty sure they did clear the sample and that there was an agreed to 50/50 royalty split.

o rly

rebel without a cape (sic), Friday, 1 May 2009 01:34 (eleven years ago) link

I'd never heard this before and it's pretty jawdropping.

ecuador_with_a_c, Friday, 1 May 2009 01:37 (eleven years ago) link

...but sounds nothing like the Stones tune. The orchestra version anyway...

Naive Teen Idol, Friday, 1 May 2009 04:02 (eleven years ago) link

Wait you actually think there is a single human being on this planet that hasn't heard "Every Breath You Take"?

I would guess a lot of people born after 1990 haven't, as they are also too young to be familiar with "I'll Be Missing You".

Geir Hongro, Friday, 1 May 2009 20:36 (eleven years ago) link

"o rly"

Well that's what wikipedia sez. If it's not true take it up with them.

Alex in SF, Friday, 1 May 2009 20:45 (eleven years ago) link

i'm pretty sure that less than 50% of human beings on the planet Earth have heard "Every Breath You Take"

loaded forbear (gabbneb), Friday, 1 May 2009 20:50 (eleven years ago) link

I'm pretty sure people too dumb to understand hyperbole don't deserve to have the concept explained to them.

Alex in SF, Friday, 1 May 2009 20:55 (eleven years ago) link

too dumb, lol

loaded forbear (gabbneb), Friday, 1 May 2009 20:57 (eleven years ago) link

Don't worry gabbneb you'll hit 50 soon enough and then you can go back to picking nits off your dick.

Alex in SF, Friday, 1 May 2009 20:58 (eleven years ago) link

Or rather hit 50 again, right.

Alex in SF, Friday, 1 May 2009 20:59 (eleven years ago) link

lol

loaded forbear (gabbneb), Friday, 1 May 2009 21:10 (eleven years ago) link

ten years pass...

That’s very nice of them. It was always total fucking bullshit that Ashcroft had to give them the rights to the song in the first place.

Mr. Snrub, Thursday, 23 May 2019 22:14 (one year ago) link

I don't care how much is Verve and how much is the Stones, "Bittersweet Symphony" remains one of the best singles of all time.

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Monday, January 19, 2004 1:43 PM (fifteen years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Hahahaha jesus that was fifteen years ago.

Mr. Snrub, Thursday, 23 May 2019 22:17 (one year ago) link

Yeah, absolutely. I'm not sure that most people made the connection between 'Bittersweet Symphony' and 'The Last Time' anyway - it's one of those things you really wouldn't have been able to figure out unless you were told what the sample was supposed to be. It's not, like, say, Shed Seven literally ripping off 'Back Street Girl' on 'Out By My Side', which was a really brazen, obvious rip that they didn't get sued over.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 23 May 2019 22:19 (one year ago) link

It’s cool they did that. Does Ashcroft also receive a share of past royalties, or only future royalties? I looked up the source articles, but that point isn’t clear to me.

get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Thursday, 23 May 2019 22:47 (one year ago) link

I would hope that he would get backdated royalties. It would be pretty shitty if he didn't, given that the song no longer gets the airplay it once did.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 23 May 2019 22:55 (one year ago) link

The statement sounds like it's going forward, not backdated. It doesn't seem likely that Jagger (MICK Jagger!) and Richards would bother to have their accountants go through every cheque that's come in over the last 22 years, make sure that they have that amount liquid, and send it to Ashcroft.

tfw you are not easily whelmed (sic), Thursday, 23 May 2019 23:10 (one year ago) link

I agree it is hard to imagine such an accounting from Abkco taking place... though the result is indeed a bit of a “Bittersweet” victory for Ashcroft.

This article also notes that “Jagger and Richards assigned their songwriter royalties to Ashcroft, but not control or publishing rights to the song.”

get your hand outta my pocket universe (morrisp), Thursday, 23 May 2019 23:37 (one year ago) link

I find it difficult to imagine too, but then we're - quite rightly - not privy to the negotiations, so you never know. I very much hope he does.

Le Baton Rose (Turrican), Thursday, 23 May 2019 23:43 (one year ago) link

“Jagger and Richards assigned their songwriter royalties to Ashcroft, but not control or publishing rights to the song.”

Those are what's controlled by ABKCO.

tfw you are not easily whelmed (sic), Thursday, 23 May 2019 23:53 (one year ago) link

About time

calstars, Friday, 24 May 2019 03:06 (one year ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YrllfAMwHI

this is pretty beautiful, honestly. has nothing to do with the rolling stones song "the last time"

Trϵϵship, Friday, 24 May 2019 03:38 (one year ago) link

The AOO version is leagues better than the Stones's or the Verve's.

Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Friday, 24 May 2019 03:40 (one year ago) link

idk, i think bittersweet symphony is a great single

Trϵϵship, Friday, 24 May 2019 03:44 (one year ago) link

But what of that "Treat Infamy" song?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBQ0qNtLq8E

Mark G, Friday, 24 May 2019 10:20 (one year ago) link

It would be like if Dylan demanded royalties for Beck’s “Jackass”, no?

brimstead, Friday, 24 May 2019 16:50 (one year ago) link

one year passes...

Ha ha, Spotify still has this as “Written By: Keith Richards Mick Jagger.”

Never change, Spotify.

Naive Teen Idol, Saturday, 21 November 2020 06:20 (one week ago) link

David Whitaker really should have been compensated for the sample

CRVTCHΞS (Deflatormouse), Saturday, 21 November 2020 06:44 (one week ago) link

Ha ha, Spotify still has this as “Written By: Keith Richards Mick Jagger.”

Never change, Spotify.

why would this change? (does it not say lyrics by Ashcroft, as per the album?)

huge rant (sic), Saturday, 21 November 2020 06:54 (one week ago) link

It does not.

Naive Teen Idol, Saturday, 21 November 2020 12:12 (one week ago) link

I assume Spotify gets those credits directly from the licensor (would have to light the Glenn-signal to confirm).

down like 6:30 (morrisp), Saturday, 21 November 2020 16:25 (one week ago) link

yeah, if the official credit does now go to the band or to Ashcroft, one wouldn't expect that to change in sleevenotes unless there was a new "release" with new metadata - an anniversary remaster, an appearance on Best Britpop Anthems Of All Time... Ever!! etc.

huge rant (sic), Saturday, 21 November 2020 20:20 (one week ago) link

Even then, if the track is there already, it won't erase or update the previous

Mark G, Saturday, 21 November 2020 21:04 (one week ago) link


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