Avant-garde/Experimental/Drone/Non-Music... The weirdest you've got

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OK, lets see if I can weed out any freaks from around here.

Please share any and all of your favourites from the fringes of music, the lesser-treaded paths through sound...

Electronic-based stuff is my cup of tea, but I'm open to just about anything and will offer up some of my selections if I get a reply.

ps

Panoptic Sweep, Monday, 13 July 2015 00:32 (three years ago) Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTJeamXtGN8

... (Eazy), Monday, 13 July 2015 00:41 (three years ago) Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4ha4ubPag8

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 13 July 2015 00:44 (three years ago) Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRNCFuEoJvI

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 13 July 2015 00:45 (three years ago) Permalink

Thank you for the replies.

RE: Savage Aural Hotbed
Here, I have to say I was intrigued far more by the background than what was in the foreground. The atonal droning sound I find appealing. The incessant 'klonk' of the guy hitting the metal cylinder, though, was kind of impossible to ignore, and I was trying to!

RE: NTSC
This is closer to my taste, though I had to skip around the half-way point because it was giving me a headache! Interesting visual aspect though.

RE: #Phonepunk#
Ow!

Panoptic Sweep, Monday, 13 July 2015 01:07 (three years ago) Permalink

Peter Rehberg:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk0HvTplEfo

anthony braxton diamond geezer (anagram), Monday, 13 July 2015 09:01 (three years ago) Permalink

My friend Phil Julian's work could be to your taste - https://philjulian.bandcamp.com/

MaresNest, Monday, 13 July 2015 09:49 (three years ago) Permalink

I used to ask people for recommendations for the weirdest music imaginable. Then somebody recommended me a record by the band "To Live and Shave in LA". That cured me.

rushomancy, Monday, 13 July 2015 11:17 (three years ago) Permalink

yo Panoptic Sweep, ppl are gonna sense noob blood & suggest deliberately cantankerous shit for their own amusement, but hang tight, u can trust me, i've got some rad suggestions lined up

The Bends by Radiohead (imago), Monday, 13 July 2015 11:20 (three years ago) Permalink

Aube: https://youtu.be/7r7hZQ1puS8
Knurl: https://youtu.be/nrjsm9qzXzw
The Haters/GX Jupitter-Larsen: https://youtu.be/SFsZHTsQggU
Werewolf Jerusalem: https://youtu.be/VVyrjHY3_3E
David Jackman/Organum: https://youtu.be/7cuOKDpgL3w
The New Blockaders: https://youtu.be/gpQwjXMTZ-M
Vagina Dentata Organ: https://youtu.be/fSA-S8NWMDk
Incapacitants: https://youtu.be/wV7RzsJMqbI

example (crüt), Monday, 13 July 2015 11:59 (three years ago) Permalink

"weird" is a false grail n all.
andrew mackenzie's schlocky edits sounding like a magnolia /sandalwood balm the third time you spin the hafler trio's "dislocation". corny commodifiable formats, brand identities, corny old industrial clank, traditional free jazz tribute bands abound with the innocent "let me wtf you" of naive collagists, sentimental "true metal" microtonalists, and the tired old to-be-expected wrongfooting of "counter intuitive" oblique strategists and rug pullers.
having said that,
let us both eat the cake and have the cake
CAROLINER
zeek sheck
isolde
gravy
ineffability that outlasts ephemeral novelty value is rare, indeed

massaman gai, Monday, 13 July 2015 12:29 (three years ago) Permalink

will offer up some of my selections if I get a reply

lame

j., Monday, 13 July 2015 12:35 (three years ago) Permalink

massaman gai otm as per

This is for my new ringpiece, so please only serious answers (Noodle Vague), Monday, 13 July 2015 12:42 (three years ago) Permalink

https://youtu.be/jqfTVpejRvo

The Bends by Radiohead (imago), Monday, 13 July 2015 12:44 (three years ago) Permalink

That's the straightforward rock song Antidotes by popular English pop group The Fall, btw

The Bends by Radiohead (imago), Monday, 13 July 2015 12:45 (three years ago) Permalink

https://youtu.be/WRheBFyqldc

example (crüt), Monday, 13 July 2015 12:48 (three years ago) Permalink

I've been a long time fan of droning and strange kinds of music but I'm really picky. I only really have time for things that I could never make myself -- things where I detect an inimitable spark of artistic ingenuity. I particularly respond to the more dedicated artists that work with long tones. The ones who have a life-long engagement with the form. To make this kind of music is essentially easy but to do it well is almost impossible! Not really a huge fan of synth drones because I own a few synths and the stuff is too easily made, for instance. Some favorites:

Lamonte Young Tamburas of Pandit Pran Nath and Midnight 2xcd by Pandit Pran Nath himself are basically the greatest purely droning albums I've ever heard and I don't expect to ever find music that topples them (though I will continue looking/listening!) I listen to this stuff almost daily and it is always stimulating. Harmonics! Overtones! A dense jungle of inexplicable alien sounds all coming from just two gourds and 8 strings! The latter album also has majestic, though understated, singing. Time seems to disappear when you listen to these two albums.

Catchwave by Takehisa Kosugi is also near the top of my list. A solo performance with tape loops and violin and voice. Unusually direct and perfectly distilled. Dedicated. See his band Taj Mahal Travellers for similar paradoxical futuristic caveman drone that is almost as good. They were early-mid '70s, exclusively played outdoor concerts, and use massive amounts of echo effects, creating a sorta organic bubbling tapestry of weirdness.

There is a Derek Bailey and Jamie Muir album from 1981 called Dart Drug which was a seminal influence for me. The first music I ever heard with no notes. A kaleidoscope of colorful percussion sounds, thoughtfully arranged and performed live in spacetime. I heard this in high school because of the King Crimson connection and it basically ruined my life (in a good way!)

Jussi Lehtisalo from the Finnish band Circle released his first two recent solo albums called Rotta and Interludes For Prepared Beast which are both worth a look. The former is pure drones and some very, very sparse melodic bass improvisation, deep as can be, and the latter is some kinda incredibly unique thing that sounds like an unusually confusing acid trip, all scrambled up, with prominent disembodied metal riffs colliding with weird clicking alien whirring sounds -- I have it filed firmly in the category of "masterpiece" as the thing is clearly sculpted with utmost care and precision! It seems almost like an alien artifact or something. He also has a side project called Doktor Kettu which basically sounds like a bunch of instruments falling down a staircase over and over again. Jussi/Circle is always inexplicable and wonderful, thought-provoking and, in the final analysis, completely confounding. Just the way I like it.

All this music raises a ton of questions (if you let it!) and, personally, it has been a great pleasure searching for the answers! Good luck, dude.

liam fennell, Monday, 13 July 2015 12:50 (three years ago) Permalink

Love Zeek Sheck.

I'll be the lame and obvious person who recommends Metal Machine Music if you've never actually heard it.

Something Called Fudge (Old Lunch), Monday, 13 July 2015 12:51 (three years ago) Permalink

Most of my oddball avant drone is by academic composers. Perth neuroscientist Alan Lamb is a bit different, though his contact mic recordings of telegraph wires in the Australian outback share a lot of qualities with longitudinal vibration / long-string instrument compositions by the likes of Alvin Lucier and Ellen Fullman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVXP_ZTpXIk

We'd like to conduct a wobulator test here (Sanpaku), Monday, 13 July 2015 14:36 (three years ago) Permalink

Michael Prime is the most important musician today working with bioelectrical recordings of plants. His 2000 L-Fields, which recorded the electrical musings of hallucinogenic Cannabis sativa, Amanita muscaria, and Lophophora williamsii is a classic of the field. Unfortunately, it isn't available on YouTube, so here's a live performance of him performing a collaborative piece with some sort of variagated aspidistra:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0Vfk_DHabA

We'd like to conduct a wobulator test here (Sanpaku), Monday, 13 July 2015 14:46 (three years ago) Permalink

important musician = oxymoron

massaman gai, Monday, 13 July 2015 15:46 (three years ago) Permalink

oops i think i mist the joke *red face* man, i am a grouchy mofo today.

massaman gai, Monday, 13 July 2015 15:55 (three years ago) Permalink

There are lots of very good recs on Alan Licht's minimal lists:

http://rootstrata.com/rootblog/?p=135

sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Monday, 13 July 2015 15:57 (three years ago) Permalink

Sanpaku, that recording of contact mic'ed telegraph wires is really nice (so far), thanks!

grandavis, Monday, 13 July 2015 16:02 (three years ago) Permalink

I really dig the Sounds To Soothe A Nervous Robot compilation, featuring some bands on the outer, more experimental fringes of the Elephant 6 collective. Black Swan Network (an Olivia Tremor Control side project featured on the comp) also put out an album of ambient nightmare music.

Something Called Fudge (Old Lunch), Monday, 13 July 2015 16:05 (three years ago) Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfWGgKzXTS4

Rouge Trooper (dowd), Monday, 13 July 2015 16:09 (three years ago) Permalink

Anyway, here's my second go. Welcome to Thighpaulsandra! He's pretty much the best musician. His shit manages to be both fucking weird and fucking amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiCjEY6jKuU

(The best track, Lycraland, isn't on Youtube unfortunately, but it is on Spotify)

His work with Coil also counts, obv

The Bends by Radiohead (imago), Monday, 13 July 2015 16:15 (three years ago) Permalink

This is the end of all things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3ceW4bimyA

The Bends by Radiohead (imago), Monday, 13 July 2015 16:17 (three years ago) Permalink

No, this is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJpfhuYby2E

The Bends by Radiohead (imago), Monday, 13 July 2015 16:18 (three years ago) Permalink

lol classic troll thread

Trap Queenius (wins), Monday, 13 July 2015 16:23 (three years ago) Permalink

"gimme your weirdest stuff"

"I tried to listen to this - it gave me a headache! one star"

Trap Queenius (wins), Monday, 13 July 2015 16:24 (three years ago) Permalink

give this one star and i reckon it's FP time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M32PxeWrTFA

The Bends by Radiohead (imago), Monday, 13 July 2015 16:30 (three years ago) Permalink

great post liam fennell btw, just needed youtube links to be complete but i suppose i might do a bit of searching myself

The Bends by Radiohead (imago), Monday, 13 July 2015 16:32 (three years ago) Permalink

OK, thanks for the responses all.

I really liked that Alan Lamb track, never heard of him before. Those aeolian waves never fail to draw me in.

Midnight by Pandit Pran Nath, enjoying this so far. Thank you soulseek.

Thighpaulsandra was pretty interesting, really that rhythmic part around halfway, the whole thing morphed quite pleasantly.

Diamanda Galas- now this is intense, I'll definitely keep that one as a secret weapon!

Here's a couple to keep the ball rolling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mQ8zRZOlrk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQIBtbsX32Q

Panoptic Sweep, Monday, 13 July 2015 20:03 (three years ago) Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TgFdw_WeS0

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 13 July 2015 20:18 (three years ago) Permalink

"non-music..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7jVqpAbCf4

no lime tangier, Monday, 13 July 2015 20:40 (three years ago) Permalink

I used to ask people for recommendations for the weirdest music imaginable. Then somebody recommended me a record by the band "To Live and Shave in LA". That cured me.

― rushomancy, Monday, July 13, 2015 4:17 AM (9 hours ago)

To Live and Shave in LA are brilliant.

sarahell, Monday, 13 July 2015 20:48 (three years ago) Permalink

aw man, it would be so incredibly easy and satisfying to troll this thread, but everyone's been so well-behaved.

Browning Mummery is possibly relevant to threadstarter's interests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhgn010ilpU

stoomcursus rockisme (unregistered), Monday, 13 July 2015 20:57 (three years ago) Permalink

Mount Vernon Astral Temple - London Praises Its Ancient Gods

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w-vWmeAkLs

stoomcursus rockisme (unregistered), Monday, 13 July 2015 20:58 (three years ago) Permalink

Bonnie Dobson - For the Love of Him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5QOU53AE7g

(better turn your headphones down because this shit will fuck you up)

stoomcursus rockisme (unregistered), Monday, 13 July 2015 21:01 (three years ago) Permalink

(sorry)

stoomcursus rockisme (unregistered), Monday, 13 July 2015 21:02 (three years ago) Permalink

might as well just use this nebulous thread for stuff i like i guess

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaHJsL6PBWU

This is for my new ringpiece, so please only serious answers (Noodle Vague), Monday, 13 July 2015 21:03 (three years ago) Permalink

(better turn your headphones down because this shit will fuck you up)

― stoomcursus rockisme (unregistered), Monday, July 13, 2015 9:01 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you asshole! this is no way prepared me. fucking tinnitus central. also i think i don't want to turn the light out tonight

The Bends by Radiohead (imago), Monday, 13 July 2015 21:07 (three years ago) Permalink

sarahell: i'm sure they are and i just didn't get them. possibly if i listened to them today i'd understand them utterly. all i know is that they made me flee back to the safety of "renaldo and the loaf play struve and sneff".

rushomancy, Monday, 13 July 2015 21:08 (three years ago) Permalink

oops, I broke imago :(

stoomcursus rockisme (unregistered), Monday, 13 July 2015 21:32 (three years ago) Permalink

xxp - no shame in Renaldo and the Loaf either

sarahell, Monday, 13 July 2015 21:35 (three years ago) Permalink

but I also feel like lumping everything under the "experimental" category ghettoizes it a bit. Why not call the rock band, a rock band, the field recordings, ambient, the sewing machines through contact mics, industrial? Especially if what they are doing is within these more descriptive genres.

To be clear, I'm talking from the perspective of someone who has worked in marketing/promotion for music in this vein for about 15 years.

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 July 2015 20:11 (three years ago) Permalink

Good point. Traditional genre descriptors serve as a useful reference point, and casting anything as experimental can dilute the meaning.

But once we label everything and take them out of the pile of 'experimental', what is left?

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 20:48 (three years ago) Permalink

i think it's a good descriptor for plenty of things -- and in terms of the examples in my post, it would depend on what the music sounds like, how the musicians make it, and how they want to describe the music they make. you can have an "experimental rock band" that might be best described as "experimental" or one that gets called that because their music is "a bit different"

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 July 2015 20:53 (three years ago) Permalink

worth noting here that varese vehemently denied that has music was "experimental" insofar as he got all of the experimenting out of the way before he did the actual composing.

none of the words we use for genres are really accurate, of course. if we have "progressive" music which progresses nothing we can certainly have "experimental" music which isn't.

my issue with listening to or making sounds like these is that you're setting the bar pretty high by taking away melody. there's noise that appeals to me on a visceral level but it's a small subset of the noise that's out there. it's hard to explain or justify the rationale or appeal for sound without melody, like taking a typewriter and using it to draw pictures on a piece of paper using only the letter "b". sure it's artistically valid, but it's also willfully perverse in a way that sticks the person doing it in a niche.

rushomancy, Tuesday, 14 July 2015 22:04 (three years ago) Permalink

does that mean that doing anything that might confound anybody's expectations is "willfully perverse"?

This is for my new ringpiece, so please only serious answers (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 22:11 (three years ago) Permalink

cos tbh "DJing a club night and sticking Mahler's 8th on" might be willfully perverse but "playing experimental music at an event advertised as featuring experimental music" feels v. much not perverse

This is for my new ringpiece, so please only serious answers (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 22:13 (three years ago) Permalink

Saw a show once by a group named Sister Circuit they just got on stage and didn't make any noise for 10-15 minutes. People got really upset at them.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 22:29 (three years ago) Permalink

people got really upset at the trite and hackneyed nature of their artistic statement

The Bends by Radiohead (imago), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 23:11 (three years ago) Permalink

it's too bad mark s took down his piece "the rise and sprawl of horrible noise", i'd link to it if i could

the late great, Tuesday, 14 July 2015 23:16 (three years ago) Permalink

is that a line from the Adverts' Gary Gilmore's Eyes? I think I've heard it differently all these years.

sarahell, Tuesday, 14 July 2015 23:22 (three years ago) Permalink

yes it is ... mark s said of it "one of the greatest lines evah in a popsong" on this very board 14 years ago

the late great, Tuesday, 14 July 2015 23:26 (three years ago) Permalink

anyway it's been i think 13 years since i first read the article and i've yet to read anything quite as good on the topic

the late great, Tuesday, 14 July 2015 23:31 (three years ago) Permalink

thanks for this! thread delivers

This is for my new ringpiece, so please only serious answers (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 23:34 (three years ago) Permalink

v much enjoyed skimming that & will try to read it in full tomorrow, thanks

The Bends by Radiohead (imago), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 23:48 (three years ago) Permalink

noodle: perversion is nothing to do with "audience expectations". if gerald malanga does his whip dance at an s&m club for a crowd that's into that sort of thing, he's still being perverse!

rushomancy, Wednesday, 15 July 2015 00:11 (three years ago) Permalink

But perverse isn't an on-off switch, it's as changeable and subjective as everything else under discussion - at an experimental show, you may as easily from moment to moment be having an experience of sublimity, of being purely challenged, or feeling pride in spotting the reference, or feeling thrill at enjoying (or ostensibly "enjoying") something that would be a trial to most people. What might have seemed perverse, and your whole point of fascination, when you're 18 can be another lineage, another exercise in box-checking, when you're 38. Or it can unexpectedly dial right back into that feeling of the perverse!

The question of who is acting and who is represented can be a huge part of it, which I think mattresslessness' and sarahell's posts speak to - that notion that experimental music is also a social space apart seems to be an invitation for some spectacular exercises in privilege, posturing, and hateful wastes of other people's time (and money) that just reproduce the larger inequalities and ways of thinking. I guess I keep coming back because there can also be moments that rewrite your thoughts of what a person can be in the world - I'm thinking of the past year, watching Olivia Block, one of those shows that starts out good and gets better in retrospect, the way that she picked up and manipulated her array of objects, which in turn echoed in the objects in the sound field. The result for me wasn't just viscerally good music, wasn't just well-executed and interesting; it also spoke somehow of another approach to everyday life, how a body engages with technology, and (not to assign this motive to Block, only describing where her performance got me) also had me reexamining habitually gendered thinking on my part about sound and performance.

Finding a place where you can have an encounter like that is weirdness too...in a lot of ways, speaking just for myself, experimental music is more a way to re-enchant, or repudiate, or estrange the everyday world, rather than a good unto itself. Music does not at all have to be experimental by anyone's definition for that to happen - but having that notion of "progressiveness" coming pre-attached to it helps me see it that way.

Anyway, great thread - thanks all for stone-souping it into being.

bentelec, Wednesday, 15 July 2015 03:39 (three years ago) Permalink

Has there been a mention of Valerio Tricoli's 'Miseri Lakes' album yet? That is a very unusual experience, especially on headphones late at night. Quietly nightmarish. All these acoustic knocks and scrapes and whispers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2Il09x3jHA

cod latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 15 July 2015 09:08 (three years ago) Permalink

worth noting here that varese vehemently denied that has music was "experimental" insofar as he got all of the experimenting out of the way before he did the actual composing.

none of the words we use for genres are really accurate, of course. if we have "progressive" music which progresses nothing we can certainly have "experimental" music which isn't.

Mark Fell was recently quoted in the Wire saying he preferred the term 'unusual music' as opposed to 'experimental music', which is a better descriptor.

cod latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 15 July 2015 09:20 (three years ago) Permalink

cosign on TLASILA, natch, gotta love em. Tom is a mensch.

massaman gai, Thursday, 16 July 2015 05:33 (three years ago) Permalink

dagnammit, in an attempt to counter to my primary impulse to be a grouchy naysayer, i spent ages typing out a "helpful"& "friendly" list of stuff not yet mentioned above & then closed the freakin window before posting. nnng!
y'all know jandek's free-depressive folk-blues, anyhow. most of you prob also aware of the awesome music and supreme rug pull after so many years of it, that this was:maze of the phantom.
also this thread from the dim and distant, in which i recommend all the same stuff i always do like a broken record: Most trepanningly psychedelic lp?
i'll see if i can summon the zeal to reconstruct my unposted post.
there was something to do w/ thomas köner, who some spod had posted on the youtubes:
DAIKAN
last track from KAAMOS
some ruminations about the excellence of farmers manual, pxp, reminiscences of heated discussions in These Records, running the oskar sala myspace site a hundred years ago.
i love the rinkydink dressage/fine procelain classical baggage that interferes with my expectations of flat/just notes, subharmonics, ringmodulations & radiophonic echoes in this
& pauline's roots, just because. i think the bernard parmegiani 12 cd set is an infinitely more rewarding listen than the pauline set, though. that would depend on my personal preferences.
and if you dig schlocky psychoacoustic shockers, nobody quite touches dave phillips.
you need to get xyzzzz in here to type sth about henri chopin.
i think i lamented that the excellent monotract CDs on ecstatic peace are always remaindered at pennies (although that does mean i can also afford to eat), and advised people to get involved with franco battiato if they hadn't already.
there's also ubuweb, which is a smashing resource, lots of free (sometimes lo-res, but, hey! free!) mp3s of roland kayn, c.spencer yeh etc to be grabbed. some smashing beckett radio plays also.
i'll leave it there for now. things to do. bye bye for now.

massaman gai, Thursday, 16 July 2015 07:43 (three years ago) Permalink

bye

am0n, Thursday, 16 July 2015 15:43 (three years ago) Permalink

my latest noise performance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STW9YsjnWlk

scott seward, Thursday, 16 July 2015 16:55 (three years ago) Permalink

i've had hundreds of people who fit this thread's bill play at my store but i think jeff might be my fave. you should definitely check out noise nomads tapes and records. i don't know how many times he's played at my place, but i think this was the loudest. room-changing, molecule-smashing loud.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-woo46kDNc

scott seward, Thursday, 16 July 2015 17:04 (three years ago) Permalink

three years pass...

not sure what other thread to post this in, but i had a tidbit>question and a question

tidbit > question: i was reading through part of michael nyman's book on Experimental Music from 1974 (after reading that jim o'rourke was super into as a kid) a few months ago, and it was interesting to see his distinctions between experimental and avant-garde music. experimental music has an unpredictable element, in its performance or as a feature of processes, the changing nature of the outcome is the point - "the experimental composer is interested not in the uniqueness of permanence but in the uniqueness of the moment...By contrast the avant-garde composer wants to freeze the moment, to make its uniqueness unnatural, a jealously guarded possession." that's a useful distinction for me, at least, because for a long time i made the mistake of conflating the two into a more general category of "weird". anyway, just wanted to throw that out there because i wondered if nyman's definition of experimental / distinctions with avant-garde are still seen as foundational knowledge or if his take on things was superseded at some point.

question: what is the difference between musique concréte and acousmatic music?

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 18:53 (one week ago) Permalink

sounds like a pretty wack definition of avant-garde

j., Wednesday, 5 December 2018 19:02 (one week ago) Permalink

yeah, he definitely seems to favor the experimental, but that's only a small part of his description of avant-garde, which he breaks down into composition, performance, listening, etc

that's kind of why i wanted to check in here and see if he's seen as an influential writer on this stuff or if his shit is whack.

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 19:09 (one week ago) Permalink

He's definitely influential, I mean, he's Michael Nyman, but in terms of musicians and composers, there really isn't much in the way of universal agreement about the definitions of these terms. And at this point, there is also the problem that what was "avant-garde" in the 1960s and 1970s is still being done and copied/adapted but is it actually "avant-garde" 40+ years later? Definition and category-wise, at this point in time, you end up having to separate the novelty and boundary-pushing aspect of avant-garde composition from the aesthetics and techniques of the historical avant-garde.

I think more non-academic musicians tend to say "experimental" over "avant-garde" because the latter sounds academic and pretentious? Neither are particular descriptive in terms of aesthetics though ... sorry, I spent almost 2 decades thinking about this from a booking and marketing perspective so I'm probably rambling and wasting space

sarahell, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 19:22 (one week ago) Permalink

fwiw, one of the musicians/composers I worked with a lot (who uh, played with Jim O'Rourke at various points in their youths) disliked being categorized as "experimental" because he wasn't experimenting in his music -- he knew what he wanted it to do and sound like. So he kinda agreed w/Nyman's definitions in that.

sarahell, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 19:27 (one week ago) Permalink

i don't think genre terms in general have much taxonomic value, especially as they aim to draw more and more precise distinctions, so that "thinking about this from a booking and marketing perspective" is probably one of the least wasteful ways of thinking about them

biliares now living will never buey (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 19:35 (one week ago) Permalink

xp
no way, you're not rambling at all! i dabble in this stuff but rarely get in deep, so it's good to hear from someone who knows a lot more!

i guess that regardless of whether his idea of experimental lines up with anyone else's, i do appreciate his efforts. it's something new for me to think about when listening to some kinds of music - which parts of the music are planned, and which are left to chance or more open-ended in some way.

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 19:35 (one week ago) Permalink

to me definitions like Nyman's up there are meaningful mostly for what they tell you about Nyman's relationship to his work, not what they tell you about music or art as fields

biliares now living will never buey (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 19:36 (one week ago) Permalink

i think it also has anthropological value -- in that he is likely making that distinction because it is one that came up culturally

sarahell, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 19:42 (one week ago) Permalink

oh yeah, it's not only personal and idiosyncratic, it's about the cultural currents he's engaging in when he says it?

biliares now living will never buey (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 19:43 (one week ago) Permalink

someone who is more academically engaged than I would be able to answer that definitively -- but I believe so, based on general cultural currents in other disciplines, etc

sarahell, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 19:47 (one week ago) Permalink

question: what is the difference between musique concréte and acousmatic music?

the only distinction i've read is:

"any sound, whether it is natural or manipulated, may be described as acousmatic if the cause of the sound remains unseen."
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https://shelterpress.bandcamp.com/album/homage-to-dick-raaijmakers

(something to listen to?)

braunld (Lowell N. Behold'n), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 20:53 (one week ago) Permalink

Check out the hip lingo on this 7" i got the other day. https://imgur.com/a/hWPYu4j

Leaghaidh am brón an t-anam bochd (dowd), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 21:02 (one week ago) Permalink

https://imgur.com/a/hWPYu4j

Leaghaidh am brón an t-anam bochd (dowd), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 21:11 (one week ago) Permalink

I'm so good at this internet stuff. Can you get to the pic?

Leaghaidh am brón an t-anam bochd (dowd), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 21:14 (one week ago) Permalink

Followed the link, cool blurb daddio

biliares now living will never buey (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 21:15 (one week ago) Permalink

question: what is the difference between musique concréte and acousmatic music?

I don't know what acousmatic music is tbh.

Monica Kindle (Tom D.), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 21:29 (one week ago) Permalink

As for musique concréte, I did start reading Pierre Schaeffer's "In Search of a Concrete Music" this year but gave up when he started straying into gobbledygook territory.

Monica Kindle (Tom D.), Wednesday, 5 December 2018 21:33 (one week ago) Permalink

>musique concréte and acousmatic

both terms are French and come from Studio GRM, coined in different decades by different directors. concréte was Schaeffer's hardline manifesto focused specifically on manipulated recordings, and in some ways took an oppositional stance to WDR's emphasis on synthesized purely electronic music and the control and 'authorship' entailed therein (i.e. no self-respecting composer should allow appropriated pre-authored sounds and call that a composition). by the 60's most composers were helping themselves equally to the techniques of both schools, so under Ferrari & then Bayle's stewardship of the GRM 'acousmatic' was a way of underlining the core concepts of concréte & reduced listening - the aesthetic appreciation of fixed recorded sounds entirely apart from the events that produced them - while letting composers also help themselves to oscillators alongside their squeaky door cut-up. think Parmegiani, as happy close-micing a fireplace as he is playing Coupigny synth. late 60's also saw Bayle introduce the Acousmonium, i.e. concerts of tape works, diffused using dozens to hundreds of speakers placed throughout the room; live performance is in the mixing, the spatial movement of the sounds through the room, rather than in 'live' sound generation.

'acousmatic' is maybe a slightly tweaky rebranding that never caught on as deeply as the original manifesto but it's a way of emphasizing the continuities in the work that follows on from Schaeffer

Milton Parker, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 22:11 (one week ago) Permalink

thank you, the way you put that makes a lot of sense!

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 5 December 2018 22:28 (one week ago) Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipUoRpVK32s&t=177s

this is not a bad explanation either

meaulnes, Thursday, 6 December 2018 12:42 (six days ago) Permalink

I get Nyman's definition.

I've always taken-away from "experimental" the meaning that "some of this performance will consist of very deliberate fucking around with unpredictable results"-- not the same as improvisation, but rather the opposite-- the composer/performer will engage in a process that allows for an unpredictable outcome, a controlled loss-of-control.

As for "avant-garde" I just relate it to the traditional pre-20th c. version of what I think it means. The composition will deliberately subvert the notion of composition in order to make an oblique statement and/or commentary on the nature of composition itself (and society etc.)

flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 6 December 2018 15:07 (six days ago) Permalink

Improvised - musicians have meticulously trained themselves to be able to make shit up on the spot and make it great and do so in controlled environments with well-tuned instruments.

Experimental - bored of improvising, musicians will subvert their training by performing improvised music while running through an area deemed unsafe, due to radioactivity

Avant-Garde - I carry the corpse of the now-deceased musician to the concert hall and dump it on the stage while whistling "Figaro" and take a bow to wild applause

flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 6 December 2018 15:11 (six days ago) Permalink

My understanding mirrors fgti's. 'Experimental' loosely implies the scientific method, whereas 'avant-garde' is a bellicose, combative stance, whether aesthetic or political (oftentimes both).

pomenitul, Thursday, 6 December 2018 15:14 (six days ago) Permalink


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