Take a Sad Song and Extract Every Last Ounce of Spontaneity from It: the Beatles Uber-Ballad Poll

Damn--meant to add two more options: "I'm indifferent to all five" and "I hate all five."

I'm voting for "Something".

For me, it's a little less over-played, more modest, and an easier song to still like in 2015, but I think you're probably right, I should have included that.

"Yesterday," although I never want to hear it again.

Macca's worst moments here. Inclined to go w Let It Be cuz of the gtr solo and its not being 7 minutes long.

Something is better than all of these tho.

It is, I agree, and without giving it any thought, that may be why I never thought to include it--it would trounce everything here. I just don't think it works up the same level of hostility in some people that these five songs do.

Let it be and LongWinding are often seen as a pair, but I still hear more in "Let it be" when I hear it, and if I never hear TLAWR ever again etc.

"Hey Jude" by a mile.

"Let It Be" second, especially version with grittier guitar solo. "Michelle" third, for using classic "composite minor" line

I am always in the mood to hear Yesterday. Can't say that about the others.

These are all the musical version of yawning.

Hard to think of a version of "Yesterday" I can tolerate.

I think this is "Yesterday" vs "MIchelle"; leaning towards the former. I'll entertain the case for "Let It Be". None comes close to being a favourite Beatles song.

I just listened to all three (OK, half of "Let It Be") and voted "Michelle".

There is something ponderous and overwrought about most of these. Generally proffer some of Macca's lighter, more tossed-off sounding earlier solo work- "Another Day" for example.

yesterday - 2:02
long and winding road - 3:40
hey jude - 7:04
let it be - 4:00
michelle - 2:43

michelle feels like the one that doesn't belong in this set. i suppose it's technically a ballad but it doesn't feel plodding and hungover like the others (except yesterday) do. yesterday has been ruined for humanity by being too popular. but it's a fantastic composition. wish i could hear it again for the first time. long and winding road is a very bad song, and it makes me glad the beatles broke up. hey jude and let it be feature macca doing his really bad motown impersonation that many people seem to love, apparently.

'something' is the one i'd still turn up the volume for

today i was at the federal garden show in brandenburg and guess what the choir sang? yesterday. and i liked it, it even took me a couple of seconds to realize what it was. a cappella singing can make songs better, i think. at least they sound a little different, not as perfect as any official recording with instruments. the real stinker here is surely "the long and winding road". that's so schmaltzy and so common at the same time. of course i voted "hey jude". compared to yesterday it indeed has got the advantage that i haven't heard as many times.

one of the first albums I ever got really invested in was my parents cassette of The Beatles Ballads which I would listen to over and over when I was about 9 or 10, and Michelle + The Long and Winding Road in particular seemed incredibly grown up and mysterious and profound to me, I still feel a little hurt when I'm reminded that the general consensus is that they are tacky and embarrassing. I still like them! I don't know if I'm channeling the memory of how I heard them when I was a kid or if my taste in art is just horribly stunted. There are some nice covers of The Long and Winding Road imo, especially the George Benson, Billy Ocean and Mina versions

Let It Be was my least favourite by some distance when I was a kid, it felt like an overly familiar school assembly plod compared to all the other exciting enigmatic stuff going on in the other songs, I do like it more as an adult, especially after I was introduced to the idea of it being a song about his mother

"Michelle" does have a cool early 60s Euro vibe to it. I imagine there were lots of suave French-language covers.

"Yesterday" would be nothing without the middle 8 imo.

"Hey Jude" is far more tolerable when you watch the video of them performing it live on the David Frost show, I'm a huge fan of the 60s fashions everyone has on display, as well as the backing vocals.

Ringo's at his best on "Hey Jude"; ergo, the Beatles are at their best on "Hey Jude."

There are some nice covers of The Long and Winding Road imo, especially the George Benson, Billy Ocean and Mina versions

probably the definitive version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0xnat3iYR8

the key missing song to me, besides "something," is "in my life." but add 'em both and i'm still voting for "yesterday."

Yeah, both Something and In My Life should've been here and Michelle probably shouldn't have.

michelle feels like the one that doesn't belong in this set.

Musically, it has a different feel than the others, I agree (minor chords? I'm not a musician, but that often explains stuff that feels different to me). It's uber, though-- "the 42nd most performed song of the 20th century" according to BMI.

http://www.archer2000.net/sbs/awardsbmi.html

"Something" is 17th on that list...I'll stand by the idea that it would have made the poll lopsided, but I think I did goof, I should have included it.

I don't think "In My Life" is as famous--maybe better (it's never been a personal favourite), but not as famous.

And I Love Her should be in here too: one of Macca's loveliest ballads.

I don't think "In My Life" is as famous

You must not go to a lot of weddings.

x-post - admittedly not an uber-ballad. Too quiet and reflective.

Anytime you do a poll based on an idea, rather than factual numbers (or somebody else's list), there's room for disagreement. I think "Something" belongs. But when you get into "And I Love Her," it's just a different level of fame. Ditto "In My Life." (Occasionally.)

In order of "I've got plenty of time for this" to "never want to hear it again" -

(Something) >>>>>>> Michelle >>>>> Yesterday > Let It Be > Hey Jude >>>>>>>> LAWR

So much Beatles challops in this thread (and with a guest appearance from the "Ringo was a great drummer" challops as well). "Hey Jude", "Let It Be", "Yesterday" and "The Long and Winding Road" are four of the Beatles' greatest songs, and I bet they would be at or near the top of most people's lists. Yet on ILM they are stinkers, ponderous, overwrought, plodding etc. "Michelle" I can take or leave but the others are pure gold. Voted TLAWR by a nose from Let It Be.

Yet on ILM they are stinkers, ponderous, overwrought, plodding etc.

they're also stinkers, ponderous, overwrought, plodding etc. to my mom

hi clem and thanks for the shout

i quite like "Hey Jude" and "Michelle" but obv the Beatles shd fuck off

four of the Beatles' greatest songs, and I bet they would be at or near the top of most people's lists. Yet on ILM they are stinkers

And yeah, do like "Hey Jude" for Tokyo's drumming.

"Thank you, Ringo, that was wonderful."

(and with a guest appearance from the "Ringo was a great drummer" challops as well).

Huh? He was a great drummer, and my post was not meant to be challopsy.

Hating on Ringo was a challops for decades.

Yeah Ringo's drums are one of the best things on "Hey Jude". The build-up, the way he drops in with that ride cymbal, all of it.

Plus the anecdote about him back from a bathroom break and sitting down at the kit after they had already started

random sampling of Google hits - I searched for the Buddy Rich quote- comes up with a good defense here:
http://tommendoladrums.com/ringo-starr-in-defense-of-a-drummers-perspective/

Had never made the connection about song #1 that now makes me go "D'oh!"

I bet they would be at or near the top of most people's lists

Very debatable--not on ILM, anyway. ("Hey Jude" at #26 was the highest-ranking in the ILM poll a few years back.) Anyway, I assure you this thread wasn't meant to provoke. I'm just interested in trying to figure out why a couple of these songs have withstood massive overplay with me, and to compare that with other people's reactions. Maybe it's just completely arbitrary, with no explanation.

XP re:bathroom break. Jeez no wonder he quit the band shortly after.

random sampling of Google hits - I searched for the Buddy Rich quote- comes up with a good defense here:
http://tommendoladrums.com/ringo-starr-in-defense-of-a-drummers-perspective/

Had never made the connection about song #1 that now makes me go "D'oh!"

― Maria Felix Kept On Walking (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, June 7, 2015 2:23 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ha! I'd never made that connection either!

Missing from that list: "Here Comes the Sun." Ringo effortlessly swings through the cycle of 11/8, 4/4, and 7/8 in the bridge.

I still like Let It Be

Songwriting aside, Ringo def. my favorite player of the 4

Voted TLAWR by a nose from Let It Be.

It's between these two for me. TLAWR is devastating, it really sounds like the end of a relationship. how can people rep for "without you" on the nilsson poll and badmouth this??

'michelle' seems to have lost a bit of the cultural cachet it had when i was young (i.e. the '90s), feels like i heard it all the time then but it's somehow become a relic of that time for me

girl > michelle

I mean, the songwriter's decision about the lead guitar idea he didn't like for "Hey Jude" strikes me as the kind of thing that goes on in bands all the time.

I'm sure that's not the only instance but yeah that was the first one that sprang to mind

xp

His version of "All Things Must Pass" from that concert is awesome!

― timellison, Thursday, June 18, 2015 5:28 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Did he introduce it by saying, "Here's one we thought wasn't good enough for the Beatles to record" ?

And speaking of the Scorsese doc, Paul reveals that George came up with the main guitar figure in "And I Love Her." He even said of the figure, "THAT'S the song!" Apparently not enough to warrant a co-writing credit.

There's been quite a few attempts at putting the solo tracks into a 'Beatles' subsequent album.

Not seen one that actually works though.

― Mark G, Thursday, June 18, 2015 10:27 PM (46 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Indeed. The differences in production values, for one. The fact that John and George developed very distinct solo identities, for another.

Again, what do any of these filters involve apart from playing your instrument and singing?

― timellison, Thursday, June 18, 2015 10:38 PM (38 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Playing your instrument, singing, production, arrangement.

I mean, listen to their solo albums and it speaks for itself. I'd bet that Paul had a much bigger hand in the arrangements of John and George's tracks than they ever did on his.

Mmm, very speculative. There was also George Martin.

Will you guys please look at this?

https://www.facebook.com/georgeharrison/photos/a.215228111344.138122.20929721344/10152858923651345/?type=1&theater

George TOOK A PICTURE OF PAUL.

Did he introduce it by saying, "Here's one we thought wasn't good enough for the Beatles to record" ?

Err, ahh, ahh...is this documented? Never heard this one. They were playing it during Let It Be sessions, I know. "We" = John and Paul or who?

Oh yeah, and song selection too... Paul quick to dismiss 'Cold Turkey' and several Harrison songs, yet Lennon and Harrison fucking loathe 'Maxwell's Silver Hammer' and it still manages to get onto an album?

And speaking of the Scorsese doc, Paul reveals that George came up with the main guitar figure in "And I Love Her." He even said of the figure, "THAT'S the song!" Apparently not enough to warrant a co-writing credit.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat

It isn't. If so, Al Kooper would've had one on "Like a Rolling Stone."

I'm growing weary of fighting but which George songs quick to dismiss?

that's what a guitarist is supposed to do -- come up with riffs. To solve this problem, you can do what REM-U2 have done and credit everybody.

"Not Guilty?" It's a good thing the Beatles didn't release "All Things Must Pass" on Let It Be!

credit everybody.

Exactly.

Jagger/Richards are without a doubt more stingy at giving out credits than Lennon/McCartney ever were.

If George should have ben credited as a co-writer of "And I Love Her," then perhaps Ringo should be a co-writer of "The End."

If you're going to hold that credits should follow a distinctive or signature riff, but not normal or obvious or stock parts, it seems to me that this is a slippery slope and a potentially endless topic.

Did Steve Gadd cowrite "Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover"? If yes, then every session person who ever played something awesome should be credited. If no, then to what extent has any drummer ever written anything?

Is Ringo a cowriter of the Beatles' recording of "Roll Over Beethoven"? I don't think anybody told him what fills to play at which points, so presumably he composed his own parts.

re: "Jagger/Richards are without a doubt more stingy at giving out credits than Lennon/McCartney ever were." Ask Richard Ashcroft!

Or Bill Wyman, or Mick Taylor...

Believe Anthony Jackson got a writing credit for his bass part on "For The Love Of Money," but that was a notable exception.

Guys, I have to commend you on finding new nuanced and interesting things to say about the Beatles at this late stage in yhe history of ILX.

Oh yeah, and tim much love to you too, never change.

Sorry, I do you like your contributions, and wish I knew the emoticon to use in this situation.

back at you brother!

If George should have ben credited as a co-writer of "And I Love Her," then perhaps Ringo should be a co-writer of "The End."

Of course. Why not? Did someone else write/play that solo?

Did Steve Gadd cowrite "Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover"?

I think the question is, did Paul Simon write Steve Gadd's part? If Gadd wrote it, then sure, Gadd should get co-credit.

If yes, then every session person who ever played something awesome should be credited. If no, then to what extent has any drummer ever written anything?

I'm all in favor of all musicians being credited with co-writing. Why not? Just because it's inconvenient? The way "writing" "credit" (and subsequent copyright) is determined is still stuck in the Tin Pan Alley/sheet music era. The recording is the composition, not the inaudible piece of paper with calligraphy on it.

One example (maybe an extreme one) that I always come back to: why are only Rodgers and Hammerstein credited with "My Favorite Things" on the hour-long version on John Coltrane's Live in Japan? They didn't compose any of the solos, nor did they have any hand in the arrangement.

The recording is the composition

Yes but so are the sequencing of events, the chord progression, and the lyrics.

credit the listener imo

it's difficult work

well George came up with the "I look at all the lonely people" part in "Eleonore Rigby" and didn't get a songwriting credit... so a guitar lick...

Other people came up with all sorts of additions/suggestions to Beatle songs.

It's possible that some of them got a little bonus for it, without getting a credit as such.

The occasional line, word, whatever. Did Ringo get one for "Badge" I wonder?

Ringo also came up with the "darning his socks" bit in "Eleanor Rigby.

Recent remarks on George's songwriting, on publishing, starting at 36:04.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owP_32EIoXE

I'm interested in the "What is songwriting?" topic but this may not be the place for it. Not sure I can go as far as Tarfumes T.E.G. - though I greatly respect the inherit ethics in this view. Certainly, Coltrane et al. are composing their solos over the bones of the R&H song. No one who cares about Coltrane would understand it any other way.

I do fear it leads to a reductio ad absurdification stance, whereby a hired percussionist who hits a triangle on 16th notes instead of 8th notes for one and a half measures is as much a composer as Mozart. Or somebody who walks by the studio and says, "You know what this needs? Cowbell." Or a person who makes a slight editorial suggestion like, "Hey John, perhaps you should consider 'it's easy if you try' instead of 'it's easy if you attempt it' here."

I'm a drummer myself, and wouldn't naturally expect praise or credit or extra payment for standard patterns that are off-the-shelf, so to speak. It would be silly to refuse to play anything until the songwriter had "written" that I should play the kick on 1, 2, 3, and 4, snare on 2 and 4, eighth notes on the hat, etc. Of course I'd appreciate credit for an innovative/unique part. But then it becomes subjective as to what level of complexity constitutes composition.

At the same time, if person A writes a reasonably complete song - chords, lyrics, melody, riff, key, feel, tempo, instrumentation - and then the band's bassist chooses to play 1, 5, 1, 5 (instead of 1, 1, 1, 1) for a few measures, I'm not quite ready to say that constitutes composing on the same level as doing the creative and emotional labor of coming up with the foundational ideas in the first place.

not sure if it's said already but i was led to believe songwriting credits go to the person who writes the lyrics and the topline melody. so even if you come up with an iconic beat or bassline, you won't get credit for it in regular circumstances.

They go to whoever, basically.

There's a Fad Gadget song that has a "Robert Gotobed" credit as a thanks for the work he did, drummingwise, on the whole album.

Also, "Land of 1000 dances" has Fats Domino on the credits even when the song is only being sampled for the "Nah nanana nah" bit which wasn't on the original. And he was only added to make him record it.

Or a person who makes a slight editorial suggestion like, "Hey John, perhaps you should consider 'it's easy if you try' instead of 'it's easy if you attempt it' here."

Ha, supposedly Lennon's only contribution to "Hey Jude" was telling Paul to leave in the line "the movement you need is on your shoulder" (Paul wanted to rewrite it).

At the same time, if person A writes a reasonably complete song - chords, lyrics, melody, riff, key, feel, tempo, instrumentation - and then the band's bassist chooses to play 1, 5, 1, 5 (instead of 1, 1, 1, 1) for a few measures, I'm not quite ready to say that constitutes composing on the same level as doing the creative and emotional labor of coming up with the foundational ideas in the first place.

Yeah, it's like, the organ part of "Whiter Shade of Pale" defines the song as much as the lyrics and topline melody. There's a reason the organist sued for credit while, say, the bassist didn't:

On 30 July 2009 the Law Lords unanimously ruled in Fisher's favour. They noted that the delay in bringing the case had not caused any harm to the other party; on the contrary they had benefited financially from it. They also pointed out that there were no time limits to copyright claims under English law. The right to future royalties was therefore returned to Fisher.[38][39] The musicological basis of the judgment, and its effect on the rights of musicians who contribute composition to future works, has drawn some attention in the music world. It has shown that someone who composes a "signature" part for an otherwise complete song could indeed be credited as a co-writer.[40]

yeah there are no rules. jagger/richards could have credited jones, wyman, taylor, etc.
they just decided no to.

errr... the melody of the organ part of "whiter shades of pale" is by JS Bach !

(well inspired by...)

Jagger/Richards should have credited Wyman on 'Jumpin' Jack Flash', I think.

Jagger-Richards not crediting Taylor for "Sway" or "Moonlight Mile" is rank bullshit.

I think that financial aspects put aside, the jagger/richards, lennon/mccartney just thought it was cooler if all the tracks had this signature even when someone else had an input or when the song was solely by one of them.

one of the examples of the subjective aspect of the songwriting credits is the aforementioned "Give Peace a Chance" which was credited lennon/mccartney although the latter had nothing to do with it.

the (bowel) movement you need is on your shoulder

are you expecting a songwriting credit ?

<<I'm a drummer myself, and wouldn't naturally expect praise or credit or extra payment for standard patterns that are off-the-shelf, so to speak.>>

not sure why you deserve any less (or more) credit than the guitarist who comes up with off-the-shelf I-IV-V chord changes.

<I think that financial aspects put aside, the jagger/richards, lennon/mccartney just thought it was cooler if all the tracks had this signature even when someone else had an input or when the song was solely by one of them.>>

i'm sure jagger, richards, lennon and mccartney all thought it was cool indeed. taylor, wyman, harrison, etc., might not feel the same way, obviously. songwriting credits in pop music are ENTIRELY a financial decision.

fcc otm

As I say,the credit on the song does not necessarily relate to who gets paid what.

Jagger-Richards not crediting Taylor for "Sway" or "Moonlight Mile" is rank bullshit.

― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, June 19, 2015 2:58 PM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and 'Time Waits For No One', too.

I learned a piano chord I didn't know before from TLAWR, so it gets pass marks from me.
― The Manner of Crawly (Tom D.), Wednesday, June 17, 2015 7:50 AM (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink