Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

I think I've heard that Lady Bianca show! Back in college I used to download a bunch of Zappa boots and listen to them while studying. Say what you will about the man but he's put together some really insane bands and every show has a few magic moments in it - one of them was Lady Bianca doing "You Didn't Try to Call Me". Shitty that she had to put up with that, especially knowing that Frank himself didn't have her back. Regardless of whatever ironic distance he was going for or whatever social commentary he was trying to make his fanbase sure as hell took a lot of that shit at face value which makes him not a whole lot different than Andrew Dice Clay.

― frogbs

Yeah it's the definitive tape of the tour - I don't know if it was a Lampinski or anything like that, but it's a fantastic aud. And yeah, shit-talk Zappa's "shitty music" all you want but hearing Lady Bianca sing "You Didn't Try To Call Me" as a soul tour-de-force ... it's good. Really good. I'll stand by it. The "Black Napkins" from that show is great too. I mean it's a _two-chord vamp_, how do you criticize that as "shitty"?

I always used to despite Frank Zappa and his music. Over time this has mellowed into a mixture of indifference and disinterest. I grew up in the wake of punk, so I disliked his music twice over; firstly because it was indulgent, secondly because it was bluesy-rocky-jazzy in a style that hasn't aged well. I sometimes imagine how I would feel about Frank Zappa if his music had been entirely instrumental and he had never spoken in public. If he had been struck mute at the age of nineteen. He would be like YouTube sidebar sensation Masayoshi Takanaka and I would like him.

I remember wondering why, if he disliked rock music so much, why didn't he become a film score composer instead? Why didn't he just shut up and play his guitar? Couldn't he write at least one sincerely emotional song? One song that you could rock out to without having to tell the audience how stupid they are? His entire oeuvre was built on jokey sarcasm and what appeared to be a snobbish dislike of rock music and people who enjoyed rock music. The title track of Joe's Garage is wistful and "Watermelon in Easter Hay" has a lovely melody, but beyond that his entire back catalogue is an emotional dead zone.

And his humour had the form of humour without actually being funny. He had a habit of just listing zany or offensive things without building a joke around them. It's as if he was aware of Monty Python's freeform approach but didn't understand how it worked. By the 1980s he was a middle-aged man making jokes about using a banana as a sex toy and using the N-word. He struck me as the kind of middle-aged man who tries to establish dominance over teenagers by boasting about the time he shat on a prostitute, and fuck you if you can't take a joke. As if he was insecure. Like how Monty Python's The Meaning of Life was just pointlessly crude and offensive at times. That film was made by middle-aged men who were nervous about a new wave of comedy, who wanted to show the world that they could still get it up.

On the other hand I remember a while back someone uploaded a bunch of uncut episodes of The Old Grey Whistle Test to YouTube, and it finally clicked as to why people of a certain age idolised him. Sandwiched in between The Doobie Brothers, Cockney Rebel, Barclay James Harvest, Druid, and Stackridge he was a breath of fresh air. If I had grown up in the 1970s, without access to the internet, with a handful of tapes and albums, I would probably have thought that he was fantastic. He was rude, but he could play as well as anyone! But thing is that I grew up at a time when he had retreated to his home studio, putting out compilations of guitar solos, and then he died, so there was never that click.

Wow, great post!

yeah that all seems otm, great post. I came away from his book wondering why he chose to work in the music business at all given he hated seemingly every aspect of it. After the first chapter there's virtually nothing about what pushed him to crank out 70+ albums given how much he seemed to dislike making them.

I always wondered if some of Zappa's bitterness stemmed from having his "freak" culture get co-opted in the late 60s by the Beatles, Floyd, and a bunch of one-off psych bands. especially since, as I gather from a lot of those early lyrics, Zappa and his crew probably got rejected a lot for being creepy and weird. lotta "oh I'll show you who's a freak" vibes to pretty much everything he does.

Not really, what's wrong with Cockney Rebel?

Ashley Pomeroy completely otm. And this

And his humour had the form of humour without actually being funny.

sums him up perfectly.

Not really, what's wrong with Cockney Rebel?

More to the point, what's wrong with Stackridge?
Zappa's humour, if not his musicianship, was a massive influence on a certain strain of 70s-90s American avant-rock - Shockabilly/Chadbourne/Bongwater etc, Ween, Primus, a deluge of obscurities like Zoogz Rift and Three Day Stubble and Fred Lane and on and on. Somehow I prefer that goofy strain of humour, irritating though it kind of is. But at least I don't feel like the artists are trying to humiliate me, which is totally what I get from Zappa every time I'm unfortunate enough to hear any of it.

that's almost certainly true, though it's worth mentioning all those bands are funnier than Zappa

which makes me wonder: what is the funniest moment in the Zappa catalogue? surely not all his jokes are misfires

Adrian Belew's Dylan impression on "Flakes" is pretty funny. at one point there's a little harmonica note in the background that always makes me laugh.

but that's Belew...the only Zappa thing I can think of that actually makes me laugh is the beginning of "America Drinks"

Ween have said Zappa had no influence on them whatsoever, and they are a lot younger than the other bands mentioned.

It probably filtered through! They started out on Shimmy-Disc - home also to The Fugs, who weren't funny either.

Well, Tuli Kupferberg of the Fugs at least

even if so they did write "Mister Richard Smoker" which is the sort of thing Zappa regularly shat out in the late 70s

I'd say Zappa's misanthropy probably ties to some events in his life. As stated ten years up on the thread, I think him getting totally screwed by vice cops and losing his recording studio business is a big part of his 'fxxx everything'. To add, I got to think that nut pushing FZ off the stage in London and nearly killing him probably did not help either.

As for satire, I kinda think those early Mothers records (Freak Out!, Absolutely Free & We Are Only In It for the Money) are the best for that kinda thing even being of their time.

It seems to me bad feelings around the original bands firing, nearly getting killed and repulsion/reveling in road culture of the band brought out a meaner more nasty streak.

even if so they did write "Mister Richard Smoker" which is the sort of thing Zappa regularly shat out in the late 70s

― frogbs

frank zappa wasn't the first person in history to not be funny

Just misread that as frank kapra

phi zappa kapra

Look you gotta admit Zappa was unfunny in a very specific way

Generalissimo Frankie is still dead unfunny shockah!

Much as I love Iggy, he's got a snobbish side; read his autobiography and you'll be amazed how he thought of the other Stooges as basically tools to achieve his ends.

Sorry to reach back for something basically off-topic – but after viewing that (awful, IMO) Jarmusch doc about the Stooges, I came away feeling like Iggy was the most pretentious dick.

yeah he reads books what a nerd

Nah - personality issue (at least when talking about himself on camera)

man imagine muffin man if it didnt have such stupid lyrics.. it would be the heaviest song of all time

I always thought that 'Uncle Remus' showed working with George Duke, it was possible that FZ could have done some contemporary pop of that era.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTX3ivF4MqU

god, duke sings "cosmik debris" so much better than zappa does. i always found that song a lowlight of zappa's sets of the era but duke just kills it. there's this really nice demo tape of duke's from 1972 (often labelled 1974) with zappa of a couple of his songs, including "uncle remus", and it's such a great listen.

i think one of the big tragedies of a lot of zappa's sidemen was... i've seen the phrase "irony poisoning" a lot right now, regarding the negative ways being overly involved in The Discourse can affect someone, and i definitely get the impression that people who played with zappa were susceptible to that. they were great musicians but playing with zappa seems like it would have to have been a really fucked up and toxic environment.

I think I've noted it before on this thread, but with a couple of exceptions it's interesting to me how little of note most of his musicians managed for the rest of their careers. Imo.

George Duke was so much more interesting than Zappa. Started out co-leading a band with Jean-Luc Ponty, Zappa scoops them both up, Duke leaves to join Cannonball Adderley's band, returns to Zappa's band after two years, stays a while, making solo albums at the same time (some of which Zappa plays on as a pseudonymous guest), writes a never-produced opera, eventually moves over into the funk/R&B/fusion realm, produces gigantic pop hits in the '80s and is a huge influence on a whole generation of young L.A. jazz cats (Thundercat, to name just one, is a Duke devotee, a fact which is clearly audible if you listen to more than 30 seconds of his music).

Not that I really know much about George Duke but yeah, otm.

I think I've noted it before on this thread, but with a couple of exceptions it's interesting to me how little of note most of his musicians managed for the rest of their careers. Imo.

― Josh in Chicago, Sunday, July 10, 2022 9:41 AM (forty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This isn't really true. Steve Vai, Adrian Belew, Duke, Lowell George, Ponty, Bozzio, Vestine, Sugarcane, and Colaiuta, off the top of my head, all did pretty well for themselves.

I'd say George Duke for sure is one of the exceptions. The best most of many of the others managed were great studio/session careers, like Vinnie, and of course Vai and Belew (also among the later Zappa crew) have done more than fine for themselves (though those two stunt guitarists couldn't be more different when it comes to to the coolness of their collabs - Talking Heads Bowie and Crimson vs. David Lee Roth Whitesnake and ... being Steve Vai). I'm just struck by all this talent and creativity and how few managed to put it toward much of note. Again, imo. You get, like, Chester playing as Phil Collins's understudy or Aynsley Dunbar as kind of butt rock journeyman, or Warren and Terry in Missing Persons or Duran Duran. Bruce Fowler did some cool stuff. But it's almost as if all these mutants and misfits were particularly suited to Zappa and not much else.

I think I once posted a really good Bozzio interview were he notes that for a time, tenure with Zappa or Miles was like a ticket to whatever you wanted, and that there's really been nothing since instantly conveying that sort of cachet. But just thinking of Miles, it's comparatively remarkable how much his musicians achieved out of his orbit. Many of them ended up changing the shape of music in their own right.

But it's almost as if all these mutants and misfits were particularly suited to Zappa and not much else.

― Josh in Chicago

to what extent is that nature and to what extent is that nurture, tho? i think duke is an exception in that he spent a _long time_ with zappa and was an integral part of one of his best and most successful bands. people like lowell george, sugarcane harris, and henry vestine were hardly lifers as zappa sidemen. belew got poached by bowie almost immediately upon joining zappa's band, and boy, was zappa pissed about it (which is why belew is barely present on the "sheik yerbouti" album)

xp I think that's right. Miles was like Art Blakey in that way, I think. Like being in his band was like being in the academy or something. Obviously Zappa's alum don't have quite that level of prestige (though I do think you underrate Vai), but I do think when you say "these mutants and misfits were particularly suited to Zappa and not much else" - and I agree to some extent - it could be suggested that this is actually a credit to Zappa, in that he kind of spoiled a certain kind of musician for everyone else. Like, what's "difficult" after "The Black Page?" And what the hell was Napoleon Murphy Brock really going to do on his own?

For a guy who couldn't read music, Belew sure got around! Bowie, Zappa, Crimson, Talking Heads...these are not exactly easy gigs!

I don't think Bozzio could read, either. Can Vai? Vinnie sure could.

vs. David Lee Roth Whitesnake and ...

and Public Image Ltd!

Yes, Vai reads music. He studied at Berklee and worked as a transcriber for Zappa before he played guitar for him.

While eating sushi! With chopsticks! And adjusting his glasses!

On the less commercially successful side, the Geronimo Black record is one worth checking out. It's not bad. I'd say you could file it along side those two Big Brother and the Holding Company records they did after Janet left. Or maybe with the two Mallard albums of the renegade Magic Band.

Chad Wackermans brother wa sin Bad Religion!

Mike Keneally plays guitar in Dethklok! I'm pretty sure he's the only Zappa musician I've ever seen perform live.

I just saw the daughter of the bass player in Ed Palermo’s Big Band playing bass herself yesterday if that counts.

https://cms.kerrang.com/images/_1200x630_crop_center-center_82_none/Jay-Weinberg-meeting-Slipknot-as-a-kid.jpg

vs. David Lee Roth

Skyscraper rips.

ugh, I may have to get this one

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/frank-zappas-famed-electric-orchestra-celebrated-with-wakawazoo-box-set-301651632.html

That might actually be one that I buy as well!

But, man, his estate's release schedule is insane lately. It's starting to make the Dead's archival pace look positively Tool-like.

"Bob Dylan's 'Subterranean Homesick Blues' was a monster record. I heard that thing and I was jumping all over the car. And then when I heard the one after that, 'Like a Rolling Stone,' I wanted to quit the music business, because I felt 'If this wins and it does what it's supposed to do, I don't need to do anything else,' but it didn't do anything. It sold; but nobody responded to it the way that they should have. It didn't happen right away, and I was a little disappointed. I figured, 'Well, shit, maybe it needs a little reinforcing...'"

Is that quote accurate? Showed up on my FB wall. I get that he loves both records, but I'm not sure what he means by "nobody responded to it the way that they should have," or by the idea that "Like a Rolling Stone" (which reached #2 in six weeks in 1965) didn't do anything on release.

I've read that before, I took it to mean that the song was "supposed to", but didn't, change the whole structure of the music business and of society.

Interesting. I guess it didn't change the economic structure of the music business--people in offices still made all the money--but I would have thought Zappa would agree that it was one of the key records in changing what kind of music record companies would now release, including his own. (Has any record ever changed the structure of society? Elvis and rock & roll moved the teenager to unheard of prominence...maybe.)

I would have thought Zappa would agree that it was one of the key records in changing what kind of music record companies would now release, including his own.

I would’ve thought that, too. I don’t know if it can be traced directly to Dylan, but around that time major labels more-or-less realized, “I dunno what these longhairs are doing, but it sells, and we’re making money, so let’s just let ‘em do their thing.”

the big think-shift in the industry comes via the beatles and the stones more than dylan i think (and maybe more in 66 than 65?) -- they saw dylan as a fashion-driven scaling up of something familiar ( the folk boom) but the english invasion was something unprecedented (in mode as well as scale) and yes, that's when they said "let the longhairs do their thing"

zappa disliked the beatles (or affected to) so i can imagine him deciding not to follow this thought through to its actual conclusion