― Micheline Gros-Jean, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― electric sound of jim, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Andy, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
underrated: Kraftwerk overrated: every damn "singer-songwriter" type
― fletrejet, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― gareth, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― dave q, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
One of my favourite lyricists is Jessica Griffin (Would-be-Goods). The Camera Loves Me has to be one of the wittiest albums of the '80s.
― Jez, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― David Gunnip, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
overrated: Morrissey, anybody in Belle & Sebastian.
― Wyndham Earl, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
overrated: eminem/D12
underrated: roots manuva, princess superstar.
but in a GOOD way.
A possible inverse of this is the idea that people who write unshowy 'pop' lyrics that do an unobtrusive job are underrated. I don't particularly want to agree with this, though.
Edna W likes that Morrison / Morrissey line. I want her to spring, cat-like, to its defence. (I can't.)
Mark E Smith is overrated. Luke Haines is not even worth a mention. Cocker is overrated. Albarn is, too, if anyone likes his lyrics. Gallagher isn't overrated - everyone knows he's a poor lyricist.
Hal David is - sad to say this - overrated. 'Pneumonia' != a first- class ticket to sophistication.
Stephin Merritt is accurately rated: people can see what it is that he does well, and appreciate it. He may even be underrated, in that there are nuances, relations between melody / genre / music + lyric, etc, that are not always explicitly discussed, but are a big part of why the songs work.
Lloyd Cole is underrated by people who don't think about Lloyd Cole, but possibly overrated - as a lyricist - by his fans. He's not a Great Writer like he's always wanted to be, but he is a canny placer of pop lyrics.
I can't think of anyone else who's underrated.
Except - Elvis Costello, who is the best of all lyricists who have attempted to push the envelope and make the words do a lot of work (rather than just do a functional - and perhaps excellent - job). I think that most people know that EC is a good lyricist - even people who don't like him. But I also think that even people who do like him (like me) don't often think about just how much good material he has produced, with incredible consistency.
It need hardly be said, perhaps, that lyrics are only part of a pop song; and a whole other vista of judgment might, possibly open up when you think about the lyrics more in context(s), less in isolation.
― the pinefox, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Dave225, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
worstest - jeez, I dunno. Bad or mundane lyrics are the norm. 'Castles in the Sky' is an obvious recent offender. I can't stand that 'Wasting my time, In the waiting line' couplet from the song of that name by Zero 7. Which waiting line for god's sake? GRRRR. Horrid coffeetable music. nasty.
― misterjones, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Lord Custos, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Blayne, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Overrated: Patti Smith, Lou Reed.
― Mark Dixon, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Underrated: Colin Moulding, Green Gartside, Ludacris, and whoever wrote Barry Ryan's "Eloise".
― Robin Carmody, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Loop Dandy, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― electric sound of jim, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
underrated: Dickon Edwards
― dave q, Friday, 1 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Q: I don't buy your line on Costello - he's not about darkness / melancholy.
But what you say about the Boss is compelling. I really dig this unreliable narrator idea. Great stuff; great to see someone sticking up for the Boss, who's one of my faves.
― the pinefox, Friday, 1 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Anas FK, Friday, 1 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Robin Carmody, Friday, 1 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Sterling Clover, Friday, 1 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Definitely most over-rated is Bob Dylan (not sure if we've had him yet). Underrated: Paul Buchanan?
― David, Friday, 1 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
I liked Costello more as a teenager than I do now. Which may also prove Dave's point. As fer Radiohead, I just like the music and really couldn't care less about the words.
And whoever called Syd Barrett an underrated lyricist is also 100% right -- Dave Gilmour once said that had Barrett not lost his shit he would have beaten Ray Davies at his own game, and I believe it.
― Tadeusz Suchodolski, Saturday, 2 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Arthur, Saturday, 2 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
I agree with David. Anyways, I like his lyrics for what they are. (I feel the same way about Ride.) Didn't he write those three albums over a relatively short span of time? Maybe it's not just the impression of youth and inexperience (cf. e.g. Catcher in the Rye, Portrait of the Artist...), but given that many people seem to think that pop music is tied to one's youth, I'm surprised that allowances aren't made. For a songwriter with an extended career, of course, it's different. I think Mrs. Welthorpe has criticized Lloyd Cole for writing the same songs over and over. I don't agree: he still writes the same way (if anything, his lyrics have become less obtrusive), but what he writes about has changed. With his songwriting style, he had to go with realism (in reference to the paragraph from Tom's Smile article quoted on that thread). He has managed to switch to writing about "real life" but with less drama. (I don't think that what's not real is shallow, but maybe Tom wasn't using the word pejoratively.) On Etc., I particularly like the lyric to 'Another Lover'.
Kate and Anna McGarrigle are underrated. I agree with what Dave225 said about Chrissie Hynde. Leonard Cohen may be overrated by people who like him, but he has plenty of detractors.
― youn, Sunday, 3 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
I'll second that one.
― JM, Sunday, 3 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Anna Rose, Tuesday, 11 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
"I could picture you, girl, in a bath... naked at my crib, girl, what's up?"
"All the ladies in the place, if you've got big breasts, come over to my place, we could play chess!"
― Ron, Saturday, 29 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― nathalie, Sunday, 30 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Greg, Thursday, 27 February 2003 01:01 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Thursday, 27 February 2003 01:07 (twenty-one years ago) link
I think Thom Yorke is actually overrated. I skip "Airbag" everytime I listen to OK Computer because of that horrid "I'm back to save the universe" line. God awful.
I think Neil Young is justly rated, for what it's worth.
― Ian Johnson, Thursday, 27 February 2003 01:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
― anthony easton (anthony), Thursday, 27 February 2003 02:41 (twenty-one years ago) link
― chaki (chaki), Thursday, 27 February 2003 02:43 (twenty-one years ago) link
Stan RidgwayTom Waits Nick Saloman (of the Bevis Frond)Roy Montgomery -- Only 'cause he hardly ever sings. His 'pop' singles are well worth hunting down.Kate Bush -- Just overlooked, i suspect, due to the forefronting of her studio technique. Though some of the lyrics on her later releases struck me as kinda dire.Michael Stipe -- Well, he was severely underrated until you could hear what he was saying, when he immediately swung hard in the other direction (at least for me, he did).
Overrated:
Dunno. Don't pay enough attention to most lyricists to really get a feel of who is and isn't revered to get worked up about it.
― Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Thursday, 27 February 2003 03:29 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Roger Fidelity (Roger Fidelity), Saturday, 5 February 2005 00:27 (nineteen years ago) link
Still, this is speaking as someone who thinks he's one of the best songwriters working today.
― whenuweremine (whenuweremine), Saturday, 5 February 2005 00:45 (nineteen years ago) link
1.Roy Orbison. Most underrated singer-songwriter ever. Much more than Pretty Woman. In Dreams, Borne on the Wind, Pretty One, Blue Bayou, Only The Lonely, I'll Say It's My Fault, Indian Wedding, Blue Angel ---- if you haven't heard them, please do yourself a favor and listen.The way he could turn even an elementarilly simple lyric and pull all of the power and emotion that hung inside was sheer genius. Their is no substitute for Orbison. He's Elvis for wallflowers.
2.Mac Macannaly
3.Steve Earle. But I've only heard four songs (Copperhead Road, Guitar Town, Jerusalem, and The Devil's Right Hand - by The Highwaymen)
4.Merle Haggard. He's not as hokie as some might think. Maybe a little 'wrap around the flag', but what's wrong with patriotism?
5.OutKast. Can't agree with a lot of it (can agree with a lot of it, too) but they're trying to say something. They do something other hip-hop artists don't. Create ART. They carry on the experimental traditions of rap's mother genre, funk, to new levels of sophistication. Other rappers sample other rappers. OutKast samples Rogers And Hammerstein. By leaps and bounds, the veritable Beatles of rap.
6. George Harrison, at his best. Taxman, Old Brown Shoe, All Things Must Pass, While My Guitar Gently Weeps. Don't agree with his philosophies, even in some of the lyrics, but his was master songcrafting when it was on.
7. Marvin Gaye. Get What's Goin' On, if you don't already. 75% of the songs are classically well written. Save the Children is a little trite, and love is not God (although God is Love), but What's Happenin' Brother, Flyin' High In The Freindly Sky; all wonderful. It doesn't hurt matters that the production job on Inner City Blues is years ahead of its time is terms of sound quality.
8. Lynnard Skynnard. A little rowdy for my tastes, but Simple Man is better than either Freebird and Sweet Home Alabama. And who hasn't heard those songs?
9. Steve Martin. OKAY, I know he's not a lyricist. But anyone who can play the banjo like that while doing a decent job as a poor man's Woody Allen deserves at least a little underrated credit.
10. Paul McCartney.
Overrated
1. Coldplay. Great musicians, though.
2. Eminem. This is not the voice of lower middle class white america.It's the voice of a tortured soul who needs Jesus Christ, no matter how hokie that seems. Some of his stuff is thought provoking, but I've met white lower class america. They're some of my best freinds. Jim Croce, Bruce Springsteen, Johnny Cash--- these guys do a much better job of filling the role of their spokesperson.
3. Jagger/Ricards. The difference between the Stones and the Beatlesis the difference between materialism and the human story. Humanity wins. If the Beatles had just left Alestre Crowley off of Sgt. Pepper's cover(and put Ghandi on instead, as Lennon suggested) I'd call it the best album ever. But they didn't, so I'll have to go with Willie Nelson's Stardust.
4. Almost all pop-country singers today. They betray country music, bluegrass, folk, southern rock, and southern Gospel in much the way many rappers betray soul, funk, rock, and raggae.
5. Jackson Browne. I mean, he's ok, but, why listen to Browne when you've got Bruce?
6. Bono. I like U2, but Bono has moments where i just go 'okay, that was nice, but i've heard you better.' Kind of like Paul McCartney. It's either great or just okay.
― Matt Prater, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 06:10 (eighteen years ago) link
You know there's a lot that you said that's wrong here, and we've debated a lot of it to death so I'll just start with the simple: Rap's mother genre is not funk. I guess it's influenced by funk and there's a lot of funk samples, but it really came more out of DJ toasting from Jamaican culture.
Also, you think Coldplay are good musicians.
― Shining CD reflective pun, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 07:10 (eighteen years ago) link
― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 09:40 (eighteen years ago) link
Because their songs aren't even remotely similar?
― Mr Straight Toxic (ghostface), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 09:53 (eighteen years ago) link
"What became of the working class?/ Nike Air, Reebok, Adidas/ Pitbulls, scratchcards, ecstacy/Hooray for the 21st century...
― dr x o'skeleton, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 12:03 (eighteen years ago) link
― Mr Straight Toxic (ghostface), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 13:33 (eighteen years ago) link
Bob Dylan- Good lyricist? Yes. Best ever? Don't think so. Maybe I just don't get it.
Bono- Also decent, but he gets too much credit. He is just a salient artist making bold, political claims, hence, all of the attention.
Kurt Cobain- Another example of a pop star getting a little too much credit. Never said too much that I would call "profound."
Underrated:
Robert Plant- It's not all "Hey Hey Mama" stuff. Especially when you get into his solo career. Check his album "Fate of Nations" if you haven't already.
Chris Cornell- I've enjoyed him through Soundgarden, in his solo career and in Audioslave. He is very keen when it comes to describing emotions of desperation.
Just Straight Up Amazing:
Freddy Mercury
On a final note, I really like Dave Mustaine, but I don't think I'd put him in an elite category.
― The Answer, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 22:22 (eighteen years ago) link
Axl RoseMadonna
― Matthew E. Armstrong (gensu3k1), Monday, 8 May 2006 22:15 (eighteen years ago) link
― Corey (burl), Monday, 21 August 2006 23:46 (eighteen years ago) link
I'm surprised that wasn't already said.
― Steve Go1dberg (Steve Schneeberg), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 00:35 (eighteen years ago) link
― less-than three's Christiane F. (drowned in milk), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 00:36 (eighteen years ago) link
Man, if great lyrics were food, I could subsist for years on the lines those two have written. And that's my awkward metaphor for the day.
― Steve Go1dberg (Steve Schneeberg), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 00:41 (eighteen years ago) link
"Lying in the carpet when we're feeling close knit deeply eternal like a secret sanskrit bodies twitching, so bewitching it's a fact that I react everytime that we make contact feel'n free like grafitti fall asleep with paradise dreams of tahiti"
― Christopher Mika (Wagnerian), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 00:50 (eighteen years ago) link
― bendy (bendy), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 03:31 (eighteen years ago) link
― Scourage (Haberdager), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 09:21 (eighteen years ago) link
― dud Hab 'C' dEva (Dada), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 09:28 (eighteen years ago) link
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 10:50 (eighteen years ago) link
― zeus (zeus), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 13:02 (eighteen years ago) link
― Earl Nash (earlnash), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 01:53 (eighteen years ago) link
best: katy davidson (dear nora), worst: i don't know -- thurston moore?, most overrated: blake schwarzenbach, most underrated: daniel johnston
― Godfrzej Ljang (godfrzej), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 08:57 (eighteen years ago) link
Underrated: Ian BrownOverrated: Morissey
Worst: Without a shade of doubt that guy from the Scorpions. Hilarious.
― JimmyJoe (The Pointless Peasant), Sunday, 12 November 2006 19:42 (seventeen years ago) link
― JimmyJoe (The Pointless Peasant), Sunday, 12 November 2006 19:46 (seventeen years ago) link
― DRAGON BONG Z (teenagequiet), Sunday, 12 November 2006 21:39 (seventeen years ago) link
Louis OTM about Matt Johnson, btw. So under-rated that I completely forgot he existed, but, yes, he's good.
The most underrated lyricist must be Clark Datchler of 80s band Johnny Hates Jazz. The band are seen as sort of throwaway by most "experts", but the guys did in fact write some truly great lyrics.
I love Geir.
― ailsa (ailsa), Sunday, 12 November 2006 22:28 (seventeen years ago) link
I'd like to say Sting is an underrated lyricist. He has taken a lot of negativity for his "politically correct" lyrics, but I am still a big fan of the statements in lyrics such as "Russians" and "They Dance Alone". He was right, after all.― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, November 22, 2004
― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, November 22, 2004
WTF?!?
― Daniel, Esq., Tuesday, 4 May 2010 00:52 (fourteen years ago) link
Unless I see evidence to the contrary, I still believe the Russians don't love their children like we do.
― cool and remote like dancing girls (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 4 May 2010 00:54 (fourteen years ago) link
indeed. and, now that i think about it, how can I save my little boy from Oppenheimer's deadly toy?
― Daniel, Esq., Tuesday, 4 May 2010 00:56 (fourteen years ago) link
(that would make more sense if i had a son, instead of a daughter. but sting's lyrics work in mysterious ways)
Underrated: Mike Watt and D. Boon
These guys were unique in their language, their subjects, their ability to be serious and goofball and poetic and conversational simultaneously. Watt has kept it up on the solo albums--the way the multiple layers of narrative on Contemplating the Engine Room weave together is all kinds of amazing.
― Hideous Lump, Tuesday, 4 May 2010 01:51 (fourteen years ago) link
Underrated: Pete Loeffler (Chevelle), Maynard James Keenan (TOOL), Keith Buckly (Every Time I Die), James Mercer (The Shins)Overrated: Bob Dylan
― DJWildefire, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 11:15 (fourteen years ago) link
*Keith Buckley
james mercer is, in fact, quite properly rated, at least by me, as a bit shite
― INSUFFICIENT FUN (bernard snowy), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 14:31 (fourteen years ago) link
dudes in dillinger four, against me!
― crüt it out (dyao), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 14:38 (fourteen years ago) link
are underrated, I mean
i wouldnt call buckley underrated because people that listen metalcore (?) seem to really love his stuff and its not that larger audiences think his lyrics suck, they just arent familiar with them
― killahpriest (/\/K/\/\), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 14:46 (fourteen years ago) link
Best: Peter Hammill.
― anagram, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 14:57 (fourteen years ago) link
Best: Tom WaitsWorst: Manu ChaoOverrated: Robert SmithUnderrated: Jackson C. Frank
― Moka, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:03 (fourteen years ago) link
I suppose the proper term for buckley would be "overlooked" then and it's mainly because of the genre I think. His lyrics are pretty incredible though. I think everyone, even if they don't like the style of music, should read the lyrics. I think james mercer has some amazing lyrics. If you really look for a deeper meaning it is there, rather than other abstract lyricists. (Jon Mess, Jonny Craig's Dance Gavin Dance work). I don't know the guy's name but the guy who does lyrics for Brand New is quite good as well. I kinda find the underrated/overrated thing meaningless actually except for the really highly praised lyricists who are often overrated (BOB FUCKING DYLAN)
― DJWildefire, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 03:58 (fourteen years ago) link
And killah priest, yeah they are metalcore with a touch of southern rock influence. But I still find it amazing that even though Keith Buckley is an amazing lyricist the band name is so horrid.
― DJWildefire, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 04:00 (fourteen years ago) link
Underrated: Gary NumanOverrated: Thom Yorke (I love Radiohead, BTW)
― rhythm fixated member (chap), Friday, 25 June 2010 16:15 (fourteen years ago) link
Agree with Waits as a suggestion for best.
― rhythm fixated member (chap), Friday, 25 June 2010 16:18 (fourteen years ago) link
Dylan almost seems kinda overrated to me. May be just because his exaggerated use of symbolism makes his lyrics kinda hard to follow.
― Tied Up In Geir (Geir Hongro), Friday, 25 June 2010 16:51 (fourteen years ago) link
Never paid any attention to Dylan's lyrics as I find his music pretty boring.
― rhythm fixated member (chap), Friday, 25 June 2010 16:59 (fourteen years ago) link
Glen Johnson of Piano Magic is underrated.
― silence is a rhythm too (Turangalila), Friday, 25 June 2010 17:16 (fourteen years ago) link
his exaggerated use of symbolism makes his lyrics kinda hard to follow.
That phase only lasted a couple years and a few albums out of a 50-year career.
― kornrulez6969, Friday, 25 June 2010 18:49 (fourteen years ago) link
Those albums were musically amongst his very best though.
But, sure, I do agree "Saved" wasn't very symbolic. It wasn't any lyrically good either though....
― Tied Up In Geir (Geir Hongro), Friday, 25 June 2010 20:42 (fourteen years ago) link
chap, man. dylan's music is the best thing about him. eg the gypsy-glam stuff on live 1975.
― tomofthenest, Friday, 25 June 2010 20:45 (fourteen years ago) link
Sorry, tried stuff from a few of his eras, and it just doesn't grab me. Think I'm allergic to his voice or something.
― rhythm fixated member (chap), Saturday, 26 June 2010 01:33 (fourteen years ago) link