ILM music making thread for techno and other Ableton/Reason/Reaktor/whatever based questions and chat

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yeah, but what is the long term goal if there is one? im not asking this in a 'wot u wasting yr time for' way, im genuinely curious as to the aims and motivations of each person who has posted on here about creating music or making remixes or re-edits.

― s.rose, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:42 (nineteen years ago)

i want to be a millionaire

― deej, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:45 (nineteen years ago)

everyone who knows how to do a thing...didnt once upon a time

― 600, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 21:26 (nineteen years ago)

As far as edits go, I've only done one and it is because I love a song but it is only 107 bpm. It is an old disco tune with live drums and bad tape edits. It's one of my favorite songs but it is too slow to play in public and it is a bitch to mix. I wanted it faster and I wanted the drums locked up. I sampled the 12", cut it up in soundforge, dumped it into ableton. It is now 122bpm and the drums are tight.

I don't plan on pressing it or giving it out. I really love the song and I want to be able to include it in my DJ sets without having to make a huge programming detour.

― Display Name, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 00:19 (nineteen years ago)

I make re-edits to DJ out with. To either 'fix' a track by chopping crummy bits out or to spend time making a segue that would be impossible to achieve live.

― NI, Thursday, 12 April 2007 01:48 (nineteen years ago)

Pretty simple query this time. Say I'm making a drumbeat, a slight variation of one I've done already, but want to record it in a different channel, so that I can play it and the one I've already done simultaneously, and also EQ them differently and use different effects.

When I do copy and paste, it appears in another channel without machine attached to it. And I can't seem to copy and paste the machine.

Is the only way to do this to copy and paste it as a clip into a different channel in arrangement view?

I'm pretty sure there may be basic misunderstanding of the best way to layout tracks in the software at work here! But can someone help? Thanks.

Also for those who are interested, here is a draft of the first track I've made, been working pretty hard.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:14 (nineteen years ago)

Hi Ronan

One way would be to record it as an audio clip.

1 Disable any effects you don't want on the new track.

2 Create a new audio track.

3 Set the 'Audio to' bit of the I/O section of the original Midi track to the new audio track.

4 Arm the new audio track to record.

5 Start recording and play the original clip in the midi track. You can start them in sync by having them both in the same slot and using the play slot button on the right, but you don't have to, cos you can set the start and finish markers in the audio clip later.

There you go. You'll then have an audio clip of the drum part that sounds identical to the midi clip, and you can then add your FX and EQ and so on. Hope that made sense. It takes less memory doing it that way, too.

If you want the new track to be a midi track, though, I'm sure you can do it, but I'm not sure how. I think you can save a track with all its instruments and settings, which is in the edit menu, probably. You then just load it up as a new midi track and then copy your clip across.

― Jamie T Smith, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:50 (nineteen years ago)

save that instance of the drum sampler as a patch and then drop that patch in another midi channel and then cut and paste the patterns into the new channel.

It should also be mentioned that having two exact copies of the same audio can introduce phase problems. You might want to write a separate part and just process the hell out of that.

― Display Name, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:58 (nineteen years ago)

it's not necessarily the same audio, it's more like, I built a kit I like and a good pattern out of it and don't want to have to assemble the kit again. I guess I could save the kit and just do the new part in a separate channel. Seems easier just to be able to copy stuff with the kit and all into a new channel.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:22 (nineteen years ago)

another option: save the kit as a preset, click the little floppy disk icon on impulse. drag that preset into a new midi track. copy/paste your midi clip into the new channel.

OR

drag the entire thing into ableton's browser and save it that way. i do this all the time. saves me tons of time later if i want to add old drum patterns to a new project.

re the edit/remixes question:
like nabiscotm said i'm doing it to learn the program and how to arrange tracks. in long term i'm doing it to get my dj name out there circulating and maybe maybe maybe get a few gigs out of it. but maybe that's unrealistic, what with the volume of people out there doing the exact same thing as myself.

― The Macallan 18 Year, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:16 (nineteen years ago)

Another little query, when you are messing around with adding effects to synth clips or other parts, what's the best way to test how they'll sound without changing the track?

I find myself playing the relevant clip in solo mode but then if I've got it set to "off" in a certain part of the track it won't work and stuff as obviously it thinks I want to overdub.

The situation I'm in at the moment is adding a saturator to a synthline but there's a very particular bite point at which it stops sounding crazy and becomes staticy and annoying, so to find this exact bite and a good point to begin the effect I want to experiment with the synth looping over and over, and ignore every other element of the track while doing so.

Also any advice on layering envelopes in such a way so that a sound builds digitally and you can't hear the various points where I've notched it up? Can you record yourself turning the knob very slowly instead of drawing in those rigid lines on the arrangement view? Assign it to your midi keyboard?

Or is there a good way of just drawing it in? Will decibel level jumps vary wildly in how they sound? I mean, with some effects will you be able to jump more decibel levels than other, or is there a general rule about smoothness here?

Sorry for SO MANY questions but I am starting to get kinda addicted.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:23 (nineteen years ago)

good questions but I'm having trouble visualizing what you are asking because it's still kind of early here and my brain is in sleep mode.

you can enable draw mode (the pencil icon at the top of the screen) and draw automation envelopes in clip view. you can also unlink this from the loop length so you can get modulation to increase over an 8-bar period on a 1-bar loop.

most everything that you're doing in arrangement view you can also do in session view using legato mode and follow actions. session view is the best way to "jam" on a song section and experiment with different effects. once you find something you like you can automate the controls with envelopes and move onto a new knob. endless twiddling! :|

― The Macallan 18 Year, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:33 (nineteen years ago)

you should be able to assign a midi nob to the pot or switch or whatever you want to adjust then record it in exactly the same way you'd record playing the keys on your midi controller. try right clicking the thing you want to control and there should be an option like "assign to controller" or something. is that what you mean?

― creme1, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:37 (nineteen years ago)

kind of.

I was going to just draw in the effect, but if you imagine when I have, that because it appears in arrangement view as a straight line which you pull up or down, then this means it's a little jerky sounding.

I mean, ideally wouldn't you want a perfect fade with this? Rather than going across and up you want it to be a diagonal line? Erm, spatially anyway. How do you achieve this?

I hope this doesn't sound like total nonsense. It's hard to explain.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:41 (nineteen years ago)

do you have any kind of midi controller? if so, assign it to a fader for that effect and manually record the fade using that. it should be a lot smoother than drawing it in.

― stirmonster, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:51 (nineteen years ago)

yep, I figured that might be the case, drawing it in seems to necessitate jumps in volume of the effect. just gonna look at the tutorial for assigning stuff now.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:00 (nineteen years ago)

i still cannot work out where to put plug-ins in ableton, there is no "vst plug-ins" folder as display name describes in the ableton directory.

― creme1, Sunday, 29 April 2007 15:58 (nineteen years ago)

yep

― Ronan, Sunday, 29 April 2007 16:05 (nineteen years ago)

Do I really need a MIDI keyboard to make half-decent melodies in Reason? I find my problem is almost always because I can't see where each bar begins and ends very easily. Is there a way of adding markers or changing colours at each section at all?

― the next grozart, Sunday, 29 April 2007 16:08 (nineteen years ago)

creme1, if yr using a mac then put them in macintosh hd/library/audio/plugins/vst

― zappi, Sunday, 29 April 2007 16:52 (nineteen years ago)

I have been having the most annoying latency problems with ableton, trying to record through my H4 Zoom recorder as an interface (which it's meant to be used as)

― filthy dylan, Sunday, 29 April 2007 20:25 (nineteen years ago)

A pretty basic question again: I have a 3-note piano loop I want to integrate into my track, so naturally I open a new midi track and set up the devices I am using for the loop etc.

I'm just not sure how to make it so the 3 notes are in one clip and can be played easily as one clip. I want each note to last a bar, basically, but I don't know how to do this without having them as separate clips, how do I enlarge a clip so that I can have more than

I guess I could do each note as a separate clip and then use arrangement view to fix it all up, but this seems a long winded way of doing something that seems really basic. Anyone able to help? Apologies if my query is a bit muddled sounding.

― Ronan, Monday, 30 April 2007 18:41 (nineteen years ago)

sorry, should read how do I enlarge a clip so I can have more erm...time in it?

― Ronan, Monday, 30 April 2007 18:46 (nineteen years ago)

Ronan: I'm not sure I understand the question, but it sounds like you're just wanting to use the Warp function to line up the notes in the right places and stretch them across?

Do I really need a MIDI keyboard to make half-decent melodies in Reason? I find my problem is almost always because I can't see where each bar begins and ends very easily. Is there a way of adding markers or changing colours at each section at all?

Does this mean you're drawing your melodies into the MIDI chart at the bottom? Because you may find it vastly easier to use the Matrix at first. (And if the pattern sequencing starts to limit you, there's an option to dump your recorded patterns onto the MIDI chart, so you can edit/cut/paste down there.)

― nabisco, Monday, 30 April 2007 18:51 (nineteen years ago)

Not really sure what the Warp function is, so I don't know. At the moment I just have each note as a separate clip, and recorded them once by playing them in the right order live, and then arranging them in arrangement view.

The reason I have to do this is I want each note to be held for a certain amount of time and it doesn't seem to give me enough time in one clip to fit in 3 notes held for this long? I realise I may be missing something obvious here, but do you understand what I mean?

― Ronan, Monday, 30 April 2007 19:46 (nineteen years ago)

I'm confused. Are you saying the note samples aren't long enough to fill up all the space (i.e., you need to stretch or loop them to be longer), or that Live won't let you load a clip of the appropriate length (which would be weird)?

― nabisco, Monday, 30 April 2007 19:59 (nineteen years ago)

it's not samples as such, I just want to draw in the notes, one after another, but the frame it's giving me only will fit one of them, because I want them to be held for a certain amount of time.

I mean one "cycle" of the marker when I press play=one note, then the marker is back at the start playing that note again, when I want the cycle to be 3 times as long? does that make sense?

maybe the notes I'm playing are in different time sig to the piece, tho they are definitely in time, the way I want them to fit in anyway. sorry my lack of musical training is shining through in how I describe all of this.

― Ronan, Monday, 30 April 2007 20:04 (nineteen years ago)

also, totally separate question, is there an effect that is good at "cleaning" sounds? I have a sort of resonated percussion track that seems to be popping a little bit, if I drop the wet/dry the popping/static stops but then I lose some of the effect I want too.

― Ronan, Monday, 30 April 2007 20:10 (nineteen years ago)

EQ? Or is it clipping?

― Jordan, Monday, 30 April 2007 20:15 (nineteen years ago)

Oh, I see -- I thought you were dealing directly with audio sample clips. I should have noticed you said "MIDI track" up above. But I still can't entirely imagine the problem you're having, without seeing it -- it almost sounds like you just need to adjust the zoom scale and the detail of the marker divisions in the window where you're penciling the notes in! I dunno, I'll open up Live when I get home and see if I can wrap my head around what's going on.

xpost Try using a limiter or a compressor before the resonator. Both of those kinda even out the level/volume of the track, so you won't have any sudden loud peaks making the resonator pop. If that doesn't work, put an EQ before the resonator, make a deep narrow cut, and move it around to see if there's a particular frequency that's causing the pop.

― nabisco, Monday, 30 April 2007 20:16 (nineteen years ago)

the first is ok in that I've got 3 clips with each note now, just figured for future reference might be good.

thanks a lot, that's worked for the second problem, it's weird though, you make subtle changes like this and think "was the version with the popping better, did I lose something tiny in eliminating the popping?"

― Ronan, Monday, 30 April 2007 20:25 (nineteen years ago)

Ha, Ronan, don't stop updating here: it is really awesome and fun seeing you wade into this. Subtle changes is right: soon enough you'll be spending six hours obsessively fiddling with reverb settings for a single hi-hat click. I especially look forward to the point where you start in on kick/bass side-chaining, which -- if you're making the kind of stuff I imagine -- will come sooner than later!

― nabisco, Monday, 30 April 2007 20:31 (nineteen years ago)

More queries:

I really like some of the sounds you get with resonators, however they're just that bit harsh sometimes, is there any way of softening them a little?

Basically I'm enjoying the way you can make great percussive melodies but want them to sound a TINY bit less percussive and a bit more like melodies, at the moment they're sort of sharp and ring in the ears a little too much.

Also general advice on this, I'm not sure I actually like "big" synth noises in the slightest, are there other ways to sort of "drum programme" melodies besides using resonators, it strikes me this makes for far more interesting sounds generally.

At least until I understand synthesis a bit better and get some more VSTs and stuff. The built in synth sounds in Ableton are pretty awful, difficult to imagine integrating any of them into a track.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:41 (nineteen years ago)

Sorry should add, I'm sure the answer to my first question is EQ/Compressor, one or both, but it'd help to know which one and what approach to take, so I know why it's working.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:41 (nineteen years ago)

Does this mean you're drawing your melodies into the MIDI chart at the bottom? Because you may find it vastly easier to use the Matrix at first. (And if the pattern sequencing starts to limit you, there's an option to dump your recorded patterns onto the MIDI chart, so you can edit/cut/paste down there.)

There is? Oh how? I find the Matrix thing frustrating but easier to use than drawing everything in.

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:45 (nineteen years ago)

Sorry should add, I'm sure the answer to my first question is EQ/Compressor, one or both, but it'd help to know which one and what approach to take, so I know why it's working.

Well do you know how EQ and compression work? You should probably play around with both and get a feel for them, as they're very powerful tools. Use extreme settings to better hear the effects of what they're doing. EQ is going to shape the frequency profile or timbral quality of the track while compression is going to shape the dynamic envelope or attack and decay characteristics of the track.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 15:34 (nineteen years ago)

Ronan: it sounds like you're using percussive samples + resonators to try and create melodies, but not quite managing to make them as melodic as you want. I'd suggest starting to learn synthesis, because the synth tools will allow you to create sounds wherever you want them on the percussion/melody spectrum. Just look at an explanation of ADSR envelopes while playing with them on-screen -- it's not as daunting as it might look. Those synths are totally capable of creating totally amelodic DRUM sounds if you just set those values right! (Set them all to nearly zero, and you'll just get a tiny click.)

Re: resonators -- what you're doing with those Live resonators is taking sounds that don't feel like they have pitch and emphasizing certain harmonic frequencies so they do -- hence it sounding more melodic. If you like that effect a lot, then in addition to finding ways to EQ or compress them, you might want to study up on how to get the best effect out of the resonator itself. (Knowing what an effect is doing, on a technical level, really does help you use it a lot better.) Try here -- looks like it also explains a bit about how to control what harmonics the resonator is emphasizing:
http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_twang_plunk_boing/

The resonator's bound to come off harsh, because it's emphasizing really narrow harmonics to bring out a sense of pitch -- you could theoretically get the same effect in a less harsh way by EQing the drum sample to CUT the percussive element and leave lots of the harmonic information behind? (I think: Steve probably knows the theory there better.)

Grotzart: once you've recorded your pattern sequencing on the Matrix, there's just a plain menu option to dump the notes onto the chart. (But not curve values, I don't think.) At least there was on Reason 1.0. If you can't find it in the menu, you'll be better off asking Help than ILM!

― nabisco, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 16:48 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, you know what, I'm just going to give the short-version explanation of ADSR envelopes right here, so nobody goes on thinking it's somehow arcane or complicated:

[b]ADSR ENVELOPES IN SIMPLE TERMS[/i]
I am putting these out of order, because they make more sense that way.

A = Attack = You trigger a note: attack is how long it takes the sound to reach full volume. A low value means it happens right when you trigger the note, like hitting a drum. A high value means it slowly builds / "fades in" to its full volume, like a synth pad.

S = Sustain = You're still holding the key and triggering the note: what volume does it STAY at? A low or zero value means the note doesn't really stay on -- like a piano or a mallet instrument. A higher value means the note continues, like we're used to with synths/organs.

D = Decay = This is the length of time between the peak "attack" volume and the "sustain" volume. A low value means the sound blips up to its peak and then backs off quickly, like the plucking of a string. A high value means the sound sits there swelling for a while.

S = Sustain = You release the key and stop triggering the sound: how long does it take to fade away? A low value means it stops immediately. A high value means it has a long, fading tail.

So Ronan, probably what you want is a fast attack, a low/medium decay, no sustain, and only a tiny release. This should provide a blippy, percussive noise. But it will still sound like a "note," not a percussive sound. In order to make it more percussive, you just need to play with the synth oscillators. Choose waveforms like squares and sawtooths that have lots of harmonics -- or set a couple oscillators to create white noise. Detune different oscillators against one another, so they're playing different pitches. Use one oscillator to modulate another, especially with FM synthesis. You'll eventually rough the sound up enough, and make it complex enough, to sound more drumlike than purely pitched.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 17:07 (nineteen years ago)

It's just getting that balance in between. The resonators are actually very good and do sound like melodies, just a fraction too tinny. For the track I'm making (as much a learning experience as a track) it's actually ok, I think it sounds quite good, but I just figure for future reference using preset resonators shouldn't be the only way I can achieve that rhythmic melody line.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 17:54 (nineteen years ago)

Oh shit, I totally fucked up my envelope explanation -- that last one should be RELEASE! R = release = how long the note fades after you release the key. Sorry!

― nabisco, Thursday, 3 May 2007 04:45 (nineteen years ago)

I especially look forward to the point where you start in on kick/bass side-chaining

More on this please. As I understand it, the compressors in Live can't do this, you have to use a plug-in. Is that right?

This looks like a good introduction, and a free plug-in.

Is the pulsing of the synth in Someone Great by LCD sidechain compression?

― Jamie T Smith, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:02 (nineteen years ago)

Ronan, I don't know if you've solved your clip issue already, but it just sounds like you've created a one-bar clip and you want a three-bar one (unless I'm being stupid, which is entirely possible).

Rather than creating a clip from the menu, I would just hit the record clip circle thingy in a midi track, play your bit as many times as you like, then use the start and finish markers in the clip view to select a three-bar section that you played well. Or you can just let it run without playing anything in for three bars then draw in the notes you want.

For percussive/synth noises (and I know this isn't exactly what you mean, but it's interesting anyway) you can always launch a simpler, then drag any noise you like onto it and then play it. You can fiddle around with which bit of the sample and whether it loops or is just a one-hit thing and then there's effects and stuff built in. It's apparently not very sophisticated, but it's really easy to use and fun.

Another alternative is to load a few drum sounds into an impulse, then use the pitch adjuster to tune them. I had a lot of fun with a single cowbell sample the other day doing this (initially I was just trying to create a go-go bell and to simulate the different ways you can hit one, but I ended up creating four or five different pitches). This is a good way to write small melodic patterns without thinking in terms of the piano keyboard/conventional melody (ie as with the resonator, you're actually writing a rhythm pattern). Again, the impulse has a bunch of built-in effects that you can use to REALLY mess with the sounds further.

― Jamie T Smith, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:29 (nineteen years ago)

I didn't know they'd released Live 6!

http://www.ableton.com/downloads

I can't wait to get home and try the demo. Which will mean yet more playing with stuff and never finishing anything. Sigh.

― Jamie T Smith, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:50 (nineteen years ago)

here's a track I made

any tips?

― Ronan, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 16:51 (nineteen years ago)

some thoughts on one listen:
turn down the bongos
create transitory clips
add modulation to segue between sections
expand on that chord progression

keep it up!

my last attempt

― The Macallan 18 Year, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 01:20 (nineteen years ago)

macallan that shit is crepey.

ronan, i like it, but i agree about the clips and chord progression. the latter's a bit too "oh yeah" and not "OH YEAH."

― the table is the table, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 03:59 (nineteen years ago)

crêpey?

― The Macallan 18 Year, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 16:27 (nineteen years ago)

ronan, i like it, but i agree about the clips and chord progression. the latter's a bit too "oh yeah" and not "OH YEAH."

do you mean the piano part? and as regards "transitory clips", do you just mean little bridges between parts? and you reckon I should expand on the chords in the breakdown?

thanks for the advice. am downloading your track now macallan.

I've been finding it very hard to "finish" tracks as I know a lot of people do, ie to take the advice given and work on it. so I'm sort of starting new ones to try and implement that advice FROM THE START. it's quite tricky to go back into the process of a tracks creation and undo the things that people see could be improved afterwards. but I can always use these ideas again I suppose.

― Ronan, Monday, 14 May 2007 22:51 (nineteen years ago)

I am making music with Mario Paint! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

― jim, Monday, 14 May 2007 22:54 (nineteen years ago)

Jube's track IS creepy. one of the panning sounds actually made me inhale sharply.

it reminds me a bit of stuff off Laurent Garnier's Cloud Making Machine album.

― Ronan, Monday, 14 May 2007 22:56 (nineteen years ago)

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