sometime i read christgau and am amazed...

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anyway, I the squibs are cryptic but they're tacked on and irrelevant unless you already care about the subject and/or writer. he does require deciphering a lot of the time, absolutely.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

It didn't occur to me, no Matos, else I wouldn't have posted that! Sorry. But I wasn't trying to start a fight, I just thought the statement seemed unnecessarily stroppy in the context of some light-hearted remarks. I must be too attuned to look for Raggett-esque smileys or something.

― Broheems (diamond), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think people are stupid who didn't get it; I just think you could probably pick ANY well-written review and there would be people who wouldn't get it; if there's a review that EVERYBODY gets, it's probably in Entertainment Weekly or Rolling Stone, and it's horrible writing. And there are many reviews (including a few New Order and Boogie Down Productions ones by Xgau himself) that I don't get, too. (And there are Dave Queen and Don Allred and Scott Seward reviews that I don't fully get, but that crack me up anyway. "Getting it" is hardly the only standard of good music writing.) But TO ME anyway, I think this particular review was pretty clear. Christgau is such an easy fucking target. And yes, he writes a bit convoluted sometimes, and doesn't always make complete sense. So how, exactly, does that make him different from, say, Bangs or Meltzer or Marcus or Powers or Kogan or Eddy or Queen or Fury? Sorry, but I don't get that at all.

― chuck, Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

no, I came across way more brusque than I intended to, your response is understandable. no worries.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I just assumed they were lyrics because how else would you know from an album what the singer thinks? I can see why someone would find the review less than satisfying but Honorable Mentions aren't really about satisfying as much as flinging in your two cents. I was going to say if you want to get pissy you should get pissy about his no-context duds, but I actually love seeing albums get dismissed without a single word of explanation.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I must be too attuned to look for Raggett-esque smileys or something.

I didn't use one the other day and Jess complained. My heart was ruined!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I've heard of Blondie (and heard them, too), the Pope and reincarnation. Plus, I have a dick. Apparently all this means I should know what he's fuck he's talking about. I don't. Therefore, I need to be spoonfed and am a lazy reader.

― frankE (frankE), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

actually, yeah.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

So how, exactly, does that make him different from, say, Bangs or Meltzer or Marcus or Powers or Kogan or Eddy or Queen or Fury?

Don't get me started on Marcus. Or Meltzer. Or that Eddy. Grrrrrr.

― frankE (frankE), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I am always completely baffled by the rain of venom that comes down everytime Xgau's name is mentioned here, and it always looks like really ugly player-hating to me.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

well . . . sorta, J0#n, but "player-hating" has become the tiredest, tiredest, tiredest of tropes, here and everywhere. so I try to think of it as something else, I have no idea what. (spoonfeeding, maybe?)

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I was just gonna say, I'm so tired of "you're just a player-hater."

― hstencil, Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

i've yet to see a one of these where the hata's arguments amounted to anything other than 'dumb it down plz' - there's a reason blender exists folx, have at it!

J0hn otmx1000

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Christgau is such an easy fucking target.

Exactly. (Of course the only reason I would care is because I've read something he wrote quoted on ILM.)

― Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

the word yall are looking for is crybaby market demands

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

"Good point. For people (or at least outer space aliens) who never heard of Blondie, the Pope, dicks, or reincarnation, it's completely understandable that they wouldn't be able to decipher Bob's cryptic runes. So yeah: Context is everything, I totally agree."

Outer space aliens. Ouch. Consider me put in my place.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

xgau writes for blender!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

oh wait occasionally losers whining about rock critics arguments do manage to break past 'dumb it down plz' to 'just tell me if i should buy something cuz i can't figure out my own taste that's right i'm that fucking stupid why cuz my momma dropped me on my head'

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:44 (twenty-two years ago)

his stuff in blender and rolling stone is really normal. read him there!

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:44 (twenty-two years ago)

miccio i know xgau writes for blender - i was giving these people something to aim for (babysteps)

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

hopefully they're quick enough to figure out a titshot (don't count on it)

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

c'mon y'all, talking about the pope's dick is supposed to bring people together...

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

It's not player hating. I don't aspire to be the dean of rock critics or even the teaching assistant. It's just a difference in philosophy, and I'll admit, much of this difference stems from form.
I'm a working journalist for a daily newspaper. I value clarity. Obviously, Xgau takes a much different tack.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

well rock (or art or literary or film or architectural or food or even porn) criticism /= journalism so that might be your problem

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

[BLONDIE] believes in reincarnation, [BLONDIE] wishes the pope had a bigger dick.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

The bar is set pretty high for Christgau threads on ILM:

This is the thread where you ask for help in parsing one of Robert Christgau's sentences.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

In the critic-reader relationship, the reader should be the more important. If you're just writing for yourself, keep a journal.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

And I realize criticism does not equal journalism, but the best critics are able to convey their points with the aforementioned clarity.
Obfuscation should not be a badge of honour.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

He wanted to share what he thought was most interesting about the album, and frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the music on a Blondie reunion WAS less interesting than those tidbits.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

corollary ilb thread: 'roger angell: why doesn't he just give the boxscore? what's with all this gobbledygook? clarity plz! ps: tell me which team to root for'

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

banjomania that's every dumb it down argument ever (ie. the folx in the stix won't get it)(ie. how we (=usa) got to this place)(bush/cheney 2004 - 'dude don't think so much')

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Forget it. I'm just gonna go back to reading Greg Kot. That's where I belong.

― frankE (frankE), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

The only way the HM could be unclear is if you dont understand that the comma is an "and"

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

banjomania what exactly is obfuscatory < / sylvester the cat > about 'dick' or 'pope' ('reincarnation' maybe but tackle that one also while you're at it)?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

In the critic-reader relationship, the reader should be the more important.

Is this reader asking to be placed in a permanent state of comprehension? Does this reader need the Truth at all times?

If so, I'm with Christgau: gum up the works! Clarity is for monks and intelligence reports.

(Whoops. Maybe it's just for monks.)

― Evanston Wade (EWW), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

you can call it silly, horrifically uninformative, smug, cute, etc. but it's definitely clear. noun - verb- subject, it's there.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

If you understand that the word Blondie is implied.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

BanjoMania: Please show me where all this excellent music criticism in daily newspapers is. (There's frequently good stuff in the Times, I'll give you that. But where else?)

― chuck, Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Xgau rulz, but am in total agreement with the ppl saying that that review doesn't make it clear at all that it's refering to actual lyrics. In fact, "Believes in reincarnation, wishes the pope had a bigger dick" reads *very much* like something he'd say about an album's general mood; I read it at such, and the first part made sense (they think they can make a come-back/they believe that their former music has led to what they are now. Both sort of "duh" statements, I know.) I struggled w/ the second one, the best I could come up w/ was that Xgau thinks that Blondie wishes eclecticism was a more powerful tool than it is ("catholic tastes", you see?)

Anyway dissecting Xgau's writing is half of the fun of reading him!

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Forget it. I'm just gonna go back to reading Greg Kot. That's where I belong.

damn!

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I understand what a dick is. And I'm familiar with the pope and the concept of reincarnation. But without actually listening to the album, I'm unclear what they have to do with the new Blondie CD.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

so the problem is that people can't take what he writes at face value, but instead assume he's being metaphorical.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

what is has to do with the new blondie cd is they believe in reincarnation, wish the pope had a bigger dick - sinking in yet?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:00 (twenty-two years ago)

And no jokes or goofing around or first-person pronouns or asides about war or baseball while we're at it, right Banjoman? That might confuse people, which good writers NEVER do. Music criticism is SERIOUS STUFF; let's keep it that way, dammit. (In fact, who needs opinions? Let's just stick to hard news stories, like manly men.)

― chuck, Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Bangs or Meltzer or Marcus or Powers or Kogan or Eddy or Queen or Fury

sounds like the Justice League of Rock Crits

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

at least Momus had some bile and Europhile anger going on, Jesus

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:02 (twenty-two years ago)

woah there, Chuck, don't pretend the Noise Boys aren't a bit macho themselves

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean I guess I expected it to be a general point about the album as a whole since lyric quoting on its own ain't worth much and I've seen him sum up albums splendidly in less words before (tho yeah, not everything can be gold, it's just one review, and it's amusing even if you don't know he's just quoting lyrics, probably even moreso. And maybe he *was* summing up the entire album by quoting those lyrics.)

xpost Anthony Xgau's writing is full of metaphors, assuming that this would be another one doesn't seem too silly to me.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck, I said I was a working journalist. Hard news and analysis. I'm not a rock critic. And I don't remember saying anything about the excellent rock criticism in daily newspapers.
I was making a point about my own approach to writing, which is very much informed by what I do. My point is, basically, if your a lot of your audience is having trouble understanding you, you have failed as a writer. It's not about dumbing it down for the folks in the sticks. Writing can be intelligent and elegant and still be clear.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

And it can be funny. Don't put words in my mouth.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:06 (twenty-two years ago)

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