Do you ever read one of Christgau's reviews and go, What the hell is he talking about?

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I don't find that one too perplexing, although what he means by "affect" is anybody's guess.

Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 16:00 (twenty years ago)

ay-yi-yi

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 16:01 (twenty years ago)

haha that's awesome.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 16:12 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, that one seems pretty straightforward to me too. "Affect" is being used in its standard meaning of "emotion".

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 17:25 (twenty years ago)

No it's not. It's shorthand for artifice, musical sophistication, et al. Christgau is saying there isn't enough emotion.

Drew Lichtenberg, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 17:34 (twenty years ago)

There's no way that "affect" could mean "artifice" or "musical sophistication". Sorry to pull a Webster's here but:

"Main Entry: 1af·fect
Pronunciation: 'a-"fekt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin affectus, from afficere
1 obsolete : FEELING, AFFECTION
2 : the conscious subjective aspect of an emotion considered apart from bodily changes"

He's basically saying that once they studiously avoiding displays of emotion. Now they seem to be trying to inject some, but Christgau's not buying it.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 17:45 (twenty years ago)

Yeah – they're SIMULATING affect, a phrase which almost blew my gasket.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 17:55 (twenty years ago)

i think the key there is the verb "determined," as in, the move toward affect is deliberate and calculated, which will obviously limit the affect in question (and the effect, for that matter). again, i hate to be the "duh it's so clear" guy, and christgau is far from my favorite critic, but i don't get why he's supposed to be hard to understand.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:05 (twenty years ago)

i got confused here ---
"Any dance-trance outfit that can lead off its Quincy Jones debut with an oblique "Love Me Do" quote has its heart (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) in the right place, so one doesn't want to quibble.

i thought this was an example of how they insert the affect. how can they have their "heart in the right place" with it and yet its not meaningful. heart in the right place is weird. it seems like he's contradicting himself, but he's just using heart in the right place as their intentions were right...ok but isn't the problem the intentions. NEVERMIND! i'm probabaly lagging behind :(

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:06 (twenty years ago)

xpost: like, i find him way more comprehensible than all those cutesy conceptual reviews where the first 6 grafs are about the guy's blind date last week and then in the last graf he "pulls it all together" by showing you that he's actually been talking about the test icicles all along.

and susan, i think heart in the right place just means, he's sympathetic to their effort even if he thinks they're not quite up to it.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:08 (twenty years ago)

yeah i think that's all it is too. thx.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:12 (twenty years ago)

Alfred and Nate, you may have points. Affect is indeed an already simulated form of something, hence its primarily physical genesis and existence (and the redundancy of Christgau's phrasing). But how else would increased emotion be showed in pop music, other than in the increasing sophistication of the physical sounds they'e producing? Here are the definitions that I'm woking from:

1. Feeling or emotion, especially as manifested by facial expression or body language: “The soldiers seen on television had been carefully chosen for blandness of affect” (Norman Mailer).
2. To put on a false show of; simulate: affected a British accent.
3. To have or show a liking for: affects dramatic clothes.
4. Archaic. To fancy; love.
5. To tend to by nature; tend to assume: a substance that affects crystalline form.
6. To imitate; copy: “Spenser, in affecting the ancients, writ no language” (Ben Jonson).

None of these connote sincerity, but rather a simulation of it. Christgau's saying that they're tring to inject emotion thru AFFECTING it by way of an implied increase in musical sophistication, and that the resultant EFFECT is actually one of insincerity.

xxxpost

Drew Lichtenberg, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:15 (twenty years ago)

i think the key there is the verb "determined," as in, the move toward affect is deliberate and calculated, which will obviously limit the affect in question (and the effect, for that matter).

I don't think that is quite right either though, because later on he says that "inserting affect isn't the same as ... expressing (or even simulating) a feeling". In other words, Christgau is agnostic on the question of whether the feelings are real or simulated - that's not the issue. The issue is a subtle distinction between "feeling" and "affect" - which is perhaps that "affect" is more cerebral, ie., it leaves out the body.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:16 (twenty years ago)

I don't get how Beatles-quoting = "heart in the right place." Because it's a sop to Boomers like Christgau?

pdf (Phil Freeman), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:18 (twenty years ago)

If you want it is easy to read the "heart in the right place" line as reinforcing the affectation of emotion, especially with his use of "a reasonable facsimile thereof".

I actually think that's one of his strongest reviews, in that each sentence is a restatement of his reading of the album's weakness.

EZ Snappin (afka Erik the Mainer) (EZSnappin), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:21 (twenty years ago)

Drew, I don't think the verb definitions are particularly relevant here, since we are dealing with the noun forms. It's striking that the noun definition you quote seems somewhat opposed in connotation to the noun definition from Websters. Ie., Webster's emphasizes the internal subjective aspects of emotion in its definition, whereas your definition emphasizes the external, visible aspects. I guess perhaps it is a word whose definition is in flux.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:23 (twenty years ago)

I don't find that one too perplexing, although what he means by "affect" is anybody's guess.
-- Edward III (ehonaue...), February 8th, 2006 11:00 AM.

Quoting one's self may be gauche, but sounds like everybody's still guessing.

Yes, Christgau's clear as a bell, quite easy to catch the gist. No extra effort required.

Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:24 (twenty years ago)

O. Nate, I think your last post is OTM, except for the last bit about affect. Xgau is being very vague in his usage of the term affect, it's certainly not about the real vs. the simulacrum. He isn't, however, clear on what affect actually means to him or how he's using it.

xpost, agreed about verb forms as well, it's interesting how affect can encompass both a total lack of sincerity and its opposite.

Drew Lichtenberg, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:25 (twenty years ago)

I think it's most likely that "affect" originally meant the internal, mental experience of emotion, but over time, it became corrupted by association with the verb form that means "to put on artifice" so that, in later uses, it came to mean the external, visible forms of emotion as, eg., the Mailer.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:26 (twenty years ago)

The etymology seems to support that interpretation. The meaning of affect as "mental state" dates from c. 1374, whereas the meaning "to make a pretense of" is later, c. 1661.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:30 (twenty years ago)

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=affect

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:30 (twenty years ago)

o. nate - I think "affect" has in recent years received a more negative connotation, one of forced behavior. When you say a characteristic is "affected" it's not usually a compliment - as in "Boy, have you heard Madonna's affected British accent?"

If Christgau had given one concrete example of what he thought was evidence of "affect" in Low-Life we'd know, but that would violate his oath of vagueness.

Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:32 (twenty years ago)

right, o. nate, and xgau seems to be using the latter, at least initially, through his construction of an opposition between it and sincerity/truthful expression/etc. But then he seems to contradict his own logic in the final sentence by saying that it isn't equivalent to simulation. My guess, then, is to go with the other possible area where affect could be implied, free of associative emotional qualities: in the musical sophistication, or lack thereof.

xpost

Drew Lichtenberg, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:35 (twenty years ago)

o. nate - I think "affect" has in recent years received a more negative connotation, one of forced behavior. When you say a characteristic is "affected" it's not usually a compliment - as in "Boy, have you heard Madonna's affected British accent?"

That's the verb form again. It's not paricularly recent - it dates back to at least 1661. What may be more recent, as I state above, is the corruption of the noun form by the verb form.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:37 (twenty years ago)

My guess, then, is to go with the other possible area where affect could be implied, free of associative emotional qualities: in the musical sophistication, or lack thereof

I'll stick to my original interpretation, which is based on the theory that Christgau is using the Webster's definition I quoted first.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:38 (twenty years ago)

agree to disagree then. haven't heard the album, tho. and yes, this does make me want to hear it.

Drew Lichtenberg, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:41 (twenty years ago)

If Christgau had given one concrete example of what he thought was evidence of "affect" in Low-Life we'd know, but that would violate his oath of vagueness

Many compliments/insults have been hurled at Bernard Sumner, but being 'affected" is a new one.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:41 (twenty years ago)

He's not calling him "affected"! Please re-read my posts above about the difference betweent the noun and verb forms.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:42 (twenty years ago)

I know, I know – I'm glossing over the much more useful phrase "inserting affect" – but it strikes me as inaccurate given the album he's discussing. Which is fine. I suppose my example is a shitty one because I'm really holding him to task for an aesthetic stance rather than a semantical one.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:52 (twenty years ago)

the main thing I don't like about christgau is that his writing gives me the feeling that you could never talk about this stuff to him. it seems very dismissive, which is a claim I often hear about writers who write in an arrogant, insulting way. I wouldn't say that about him necessarily, just that he sometimes comes off, er, offhanded to me, intelligently so, but very casual nonetheless - sometimes, I get the impression he doesn't actually care about what he's writing about that much.

Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:56 (twenty years ago)

i think in general there's too much unecessary attitude coming across and its somewhat distracting.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:04 (twenty years ago)

Ever get the feeling he thinks he's much better than the people he's writing about?

Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:24 (twenty years ago)

Not that I'm one to talk in that area.

Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:26 (twenty years ago)

o. nate - you're wrong about his meaning. whether or not it's a corruption of the verb form by the noun form, i think it's fairly common usage now (and fairly common w/ xgau if i recall correctly - again, you have to read all his stuff together blah blah blah)

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:33 (twenty years ago)

"Affect" is a common non-obsolete psychological term:

Feeling or emotion, especially as manifested by facial expression or body language: “The soldiers seen on television had been carefully chosen for blandness of affect” (Norman Mailer)

Cf common terms like "Seasonal Affective Disorder" -- a seasonal disorder of the, umm, affect.

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:34 (twenty years ago)

A bit more detail on "affect" can be found at the Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affect

It's interesting to contrast the various technical uses of the term. In psychology, it means the external signifiers of emotion (ie., the sense that Mailer used). In philosophy and neuroscience and artificial intelligence, it refers to the internal mental experience of emotion (ie., the sense referred to in the Webster's definition). Since Christgau uses it in a fairly context-free setting, it's hard to know which sense he means.

xpost

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:36 (twenty years ago)

xpost to edward-yes, i feel like he's constantly stooping and it makes me uncomfortable and embarrassed.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:37 (twenty years ago)

However, anyone who believes that Christgau is using the term to mean the "outward expression of emotion" still needs to solve the problem of why does he later say specifically that he does not mean the simulating of feeling.

xpost

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:39 (twenty years ago)

Well he's no harder to read than Frederic Jameson, y'know.

These Robust Cookies (Robust Cookies), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:40 (twenty years ago)

And most likely, given Christgau's predilection for trendy academic theory, I'd guess he means the Deleuzian sense (not the sense from psychology).

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:43 (twenty years ago)

yes, this is the best thread ever.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:45 (twenty years ago)

Deleuze on affect:

http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/csisp/PDF/deluze_spinoza_affect.pdf

If anyone can make heads or tails of this, please to summarize.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:48 (twenty years ago)

But inserting affect isn't the same as actually feeling something, and it isn't the same as expressing (or even simulating) a feeling, either.

Substitute "emotion" and that seems relatively clear: "Sounding emotional on your record isn't the same thing as actually having emotions, and it isn't the same as expressing (or even simulating) emotions, either." It works even better if you plug in a specific emotion, like anger.

But I'll admit to not following what he's getting at with the "simulating" part. If you took it out, the whole sentence would read like he's saying New Order are simulating emotion -- i.e., "acting like you have feelings doesn't mean you have them, or that you're expressing them to me." By putting that "simulating" in parens, it's like he's trying to indicate that it even goes a little beyond that, that he has some little distinction in mind beyond what the sentence can tell you. And that's something that gets a bit Talmudic and annoying. If he doesn't have the space to unpack some really small distinction, it's easy to wish he hadn't mentioned it, cause trying to figure it out can be awfully distracting. It's like mentioning a joke but not offering the punch line -- it makes you think, sure, and pretty deeply, but sometimes you'd just rather they'd let it pass.

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:05 (twenty years ago)

nabisco, um, otm. for realz!

Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:56 (twenty years ago)

On This Nation's Saving Grace
by R. Christgau

If the sentimental fallacy
of good American rock and roll
is roots,

the sentimental fallacy
of good British rock and roll
is amateurism.

Not that these veterans
distinguished themselves
from themselves

before Yank guitarist Brix E. Smith
righted husband Mark E.'s
feckless avant-gardishness.

Still, what they've
arrived at now is
cunningly sloppy,
minimally catchy
Hawkwind/Stooges

with each three-chord
drone long enough
to make an avant-gardish statement
but stopping short
of actual boredom.

And yeah,
it beats roots
by me.

Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:10 (twenty years ago)

On The Dark Side of the Moon
by R. Christgau

With its technological mastery
and its conventional wisdom
once-removed,
this is a kitsch masterpiece--

taken too seriously by definition,
but not without charm.

It may sell on sheer aural sensationalism,
but the studio effects
do transmute David Gilmour's guitar solos
into something more
than they were when he played them.

Its taped speech fragments
may be old hat,
but for once they cohere
musically.

And if its pessimism is received,
that doesn't make the ideas untrue--

there are even times,
especially when Dick Parry's saxophone
undercuts the electronic pomp,
when this record brings its cliches to life,
which is what pop is supposed to do,

even the kind with delusions of grandeur.

Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:12 (twenty years ago)

does he have to say "than they were when he played them" the free verse thing is really starting to make sense.

Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:23 (twenty years ago)

Yes, I'm starting to think the Voice should publish them that way (they might have to reduce the font size).

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:34 (twenty years ago)

I'm having the exact same thought. I really, really like them as poems.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:36 (twenty years ago)

Christgau, the best poet since Phil Rizzuto

Chuck B, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:49 (twenty years ago)


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