How were Rumours-era Fleetwood Mac as paradigm-shifting as punk?

in the guardian today: "are hawkwind the most influential british group ever?"

i see "rumours-era" has been as loosely defined as "punk" on this thread.

in the guardian today: "are hawkwind the most influential british group ever?"
i'm assuming the answer is a resounding "no"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB19kSIrFNc

in the guardian today: "are hawkwind the most influential british group ever?"
i'm assuming the answer is a resounding "no"?

― tylerw, Friday, August 28, 2009 9:42 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark

i think they might not even have phrased it as a question! there was nothing in the article about them being influential, though, it was mainly just about how one of them lives on a farm and is quite a nice dude

anyway we should get the guy that wrote that onto this 'rumours' question is my point

I'd say Womack & Womack's Love Wars, the first three X albums, and Shoot Out the Lights use the same material as Rumours: redacted folk and blues and a sprinkle of R&B on angry sex-pop.

The FM/Sex Pistols fusion question derailed the thread a tad (which is fine...never heard those Rezillos/Rockets songs). But I thought we'd be talking more about Heart (which xhuxk mentions in that review) and Toto (now there's a group of musicians who I bet heard Rumours or the 1975 self-titled and started a band).

And did Stevie Nicks begat Kate Bush and thus the wood sprite wing of popular music (Tori, Sarah MacLachlan, gad! Loreena McKennit, etc.)?

Don't forget Kristin Hersh...

They're fellow travelers, methinks.

Toto (now there's a group of musicians who I bet heard Rumours or the 1975 self-titled and started a band).

No, they went out and bought new mikes.

A lot of already established musicians did indeed start a new band after hearing "Rumours". Or, their old band changed their style into a more streamlined AOR.

like which

Well, I would say Toto is a typical example. Plus Chicago, Yes, Genesis and Supertramp would all become more streamlined and less adventurous.

yeah I don't buy that

genesis went from making music that really doesn't sound like fleetwood mac to making shorter songs that also really don't sound like fleetwood mac because they heard rumours and decided pop songs were alright after all?

I always attributed most of those prog bands tightening up in the early '80s (Rush and Moody Blues and Queen too) more to new wave than to Fleetwood Mac, but what do I know.

Btw, this might tick Kevin off, but I'm also not necessarily convinced that what made punk rock good or interesting is that it "shifted paradigms," assuming indeed it did actually shift any.

No that doesn't tick me off. Not sure it shifted paradigms either. Or it did only for certain groups of people as with any genre. But Simon Reynolds wrote an entire book on post-punk. Where's the book on post-Rumours (not saying there isn't one; just asking)?

I like what Ioannis said above - it may just be that FM's influence was so pervasive that it's difficult to trace their sound in subsequent music.

As a listener, particularly a young listener who heard Fleetwood Mac way out of time (I accessed Rumours through my Mother's own listening habits, in fact), what I heard was music about creating and uncreating relationships - which spoke to a comment I made on another thread where I always heard Fleetwood Mac more as a commune that made music, or a family that made music. Whereas where a lot of the singer-songwriter traditions that pre-dated Fleetwood Mac that I was inaugurated into (Dylan, Mitchell, Young, Browne, etc) felt much more independent. Dylan's relationships are always happening off-screen, and he's reflecting them to us solo now on the album. But on Rumours the relationship appears to be occurring in real time here and now, and some of the bitterness comes from that -- we're not just hearing a kiss-off song, we're witnessing a kiss-off, and here's how you know it's happening now: Lindsey is kissing off Stevie BUT LOOK, Stevie is STILL HERE in the song! She hasn't left!

And in punk music, which I was inaugurated into later on my own, there were similar dynamics. Whatever the fractures and relationship breaks, they always appeared to be happening in the moment -- you were witnessing the disaster as it happened. Anyway, this is possible the relationship for me as a listener, but I was listening to all these bands way out of times (Fleetwood Mac + Sex Pistols both decades later than the impact), so my experience could be totally anachronistic. But if it isn't; it seems like there's this kind of familial dynamic, or social relationship performance.

zo my gaw:

Results 1 - 1 of 1 for "influenced by fleetwood mac's Rumours". (0.31 seconds)
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1.
The Roots: Phrenology review | CD reviews | Music - Times Online
... so the Roots can claim this album was influenced by Fleetwood Mac's Rumours without realising, we assume, that it's about as cool a reference point as ...

looool

I had to click through to check if Chuck wrote that review.

I think X is possibly the best example of this kinda thing--angry sexual tension rock with pretty harmonies?

I still do not understand the love for this band.

I don't understand Urdu.

"I still do not understand the love for this band."

how much have you listened to this band?

"Which musicians obviously started a band because they heard both Rumours and Never Mind The Bollocks?" might also be a good question.

Papas Fritas

"how much have you listened to this band?"

I've owned and sold copies of Tusk and Rumours, I still have a copy of Play On somewhere around here. I like the upbeat singles, I don't like the ballads or most of the album tracks. I'm also not a fan of Steely Dan or Supertramp outside of a couple songs. But I love Babe Ruth.

XP to H00S, I love X too, and I wonder if that has something to do with it.

As a listener, particularly a young listener who heard Fleetwood Mac way out of time (I accessed Rumours through my Mother's own listening habits, in fact), what I heard was music about creating and uncreating relationships - which spoke to a comment I made on another thread where I always heard Fleetwood Mac more as a commune that made music, or a family that made music. Whereas where a lot of the singer-songwriter traditions that pre-dated Fleetwood Mac that I was inaugurated into (Dylan, Mitchell, Young, Browne, etc) felt much more independent. Dylan's relationships are always happening off-screen, and he's reflecting them to us solo now on the album. But on Rumours the relationship appears to be occurring in real time here and now, and some of the bitterness comes from that -- we're not just hearing a kiss-off song, we're witnessing a kiss-off, and here's how you know it's happening now: Lindsey is kissing off Stevie BUT LOOK, Stevie is STILL HERE in the song! She hasn't left!

Mordy, this is marvelous -- maybe the best thing I've read about them in years.

It was all freak folk in the end.

genesis went from making music that really doesn't sound like fleetwood mac to making shorter songs that also really don't sound like fleetwood mac because they heard rumours and decided pop songs were alright after all?

More like, because Phil Collins noticed that Fleetwood Mac and their likes were making a damn lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Well, not saying I necessarily disagree with that, but you certainly don't have to relate to Fleetwood Mac's lives (or even know anything about their lives) to relate to their songs, and sound.

yeah, yer right about that in a sense, but you also mustn't discount that sound in and of itself can embody meaning. in the Mac's case, their sound (and song structures) make it fairly implicit that these guys & gals are on top of the world, man, and here's how they feel about it (tho in no way are they so smugly reprehensible about it as fellow playmates Henley/Frey/etc. were); they've already won, may the good times never end. welcome to the Hotel California, folx. now what? doesn't exactly add up to a recipe for teen-age insurrection, does it? “omg, those hippies are so old...and boring.”

Mordy, this is marvelous -- maybe the best thing I've read about them in years.

― post-contrarian meta-challop 2009 (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, August 28, 2009

not to take anything away but didn't The Mac already say as much in Silver Springs?

the first three or four album run once lindsay and stevie got involved is better than any punk band's. funny how times change. in 1999 people talking about 1967 the way people these days talk about how epochal/cool man 1977 was would've gotten laughed out of the record store. 1999 on the other hand. . . .

More like, because Phil Collins noticed that Fleetwood Mac and their likes were making a damn lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

so somehow they managed to ignore decades of history where artists were making millions of dollars w/ pop songs - it took the success of fleetwood mac for them to finally figure it out?

It took the success of Fleetwood Mac to make Phil Collins like cocaine.

^^^^ more believable

I've just thrown up all over my legs.

i heard dave greenslade was phil's dealer

Call me crazy, but where do guitar/laptop noise artists (e.g. Fennesz, Oren Ambarchi) fit into this? You can't lump them in with the freak folk dudes, that's for sure. I mean, could "Endless Summer" have existed without "Never Going Back Again"?

devendra's entire shtick is "never going back again" as sung by marc bolan ca. tyrannosaurus rex

The Vatican has produced a 'semi-serious' list of recommended classic pop albums. Which of its choices did it describe as a 'fascinating musical soap opera' ?

Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon 38.57%
Fleetwood Mac - Rumours 16.28%
Michael Jackson - Thriller 21.71%
The Beatles - Revolver 5.54%
Paul Simon - Graceland 17.90%

866 answers so far. It's Fleetwood Mac's 1977 album Rumours. Also making the Vatican's list were Oasis' (What's The Story) Morning Glory, U2's Achtung Baby and Santana's Supernatural. The list was featured in the Pope's newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano.

um, Duh!?

WTF? No "Sympathy For The Devil" or "Number Of The Beast"???

don't really think 'rumours' was some grand shift - plenty of stuff sounds like this from around then, just most of it is pretty spineless in comparison. 'writing excellent songs and spending a lot of money recording them' isn't a great leap forward, it seems more llike the pinnacle of what was already going on. it doesn't take anything away from the record though, far from it.

I should point out, it's a bbc 'quiz' not a poll. They ask the question, and you pick the answer from the five options given.

Jeez, not everything is a poll, guys!

don't really think 'rumours' was some grand shift - plenty of stuff sounds like this from around then, just most of it is pretty spineless in comparison

You could say the same about the Ramones or Pistols, though. (And lots of what sounded like punk before punk happened actually doesn't sound spineless.) But again, I'm not the one saying that either Fleetwood Mac or punk "shifted paradigms."

Here's my Spin Fiona/One 2 One review that Kevin quotes at the start of this thread:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Jlr1EqbQvLgC&pg=PT86&dq='chuck+eddy'+fiona+'one+2+one'&rview=1&cd=1#v=onepage&q='chuck%20eddy'%20fiona%20'one%202%20one'&f=false

To my ears, "Rumours"-era Fleetwood Mac doesn't sound as boldly original as, for instance, the Ramones do on their debut. I'm too young to remember what it was like when either came out though. But even now, if I listen back to albums preceding 1976-77, it's not too hard to find albums that sound fairly similar to "Rumours" but pretty hard to find something that sounds a lot like the Ramones. But maybe I'm just more attuned to the little things that the Ramones did differently from say the Modern Lovers, New York Dolls or Neu and less attuned to the things that "Rumours" does differently from stuff like The Eagles, Gene Clark's No Other, or Sandy Denny.

Which musicians obviously started a band because they heard both Rumours and Never Mind The Bollocks?

The Bangles
The Go-Gos

^love the bass-playing on "Dreams"

Yeah, it's great - really makes the song.

"Rumours was to the U.S. what punk was to the U.K."

it was funny reading that hotel california book about the whole elektra/asylum/laurel canyon era and the shot heard round the world for EVERYONE out there from the eagles guys and jackson and linda and everyone in between was sweet baby james! that was the album they all wanted to make and was the template for the whole cali sound. it was their sex pistols moment.

"Steamroller Blues" is kind of a jam.

i was primed and ready as early as 1974 to embrace the buck/nicks mac line-up. linda was my goddess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI9FMwzgY-k

and so, so hott

linda rondstadt seems like such a nice killer lady in "hotel california".. far too sweet to be hanging around those depraved unwashed eagles boys

far too SMART, you mean.

yeah that too

linda, and surprisingly, jackson browne were pretty much the only people who came out of that book unscathed.

frey and stills though, man, they were like the ultimate evil.

which Hotel California book are you referring to, scott?

oh wait: the Hoskyns book.

http://altefritz.com/Images/linda.jpg

que linda

Hey, look! It's our once and future governor. You shoulda captioned that skot.

I hadda read Mick Fleetwood's autobiography once. The only worse was Bill Wyman's. But anyway, the only thing I remember about it because it was so icky was Fleetwood retelling this tale of how he'd started this telephone romance with a fan who'd written him a letter. And he became very smitten with her, he alleged, seemingly on the basis of her telephone voice and what she told him. And he kept wanting to meet her and she kept putting it off. And he became more sexually obsessed with her and when she finally consented to meet him he was bummed because she turned out to be a fat girl. So he wrote that he had been wronged and tried to scold her into admitting she had tricked him. Unsuccessfully.

I have a hard time imagining why anyone would publish a story about themselves like that unless
that person has an IQ of about 70, has lucked into vast fame and fortune by being in the right place with the right people at the right times, and became used to being surrounded by people who never said "boo" to whatever stupid thing entered his mind.

Doesn't stop me from liking Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac though.

Ten possible reasons.

Marcello, that's fantastic. Although I still don't own the 2004 edition with the restored "Silver Springs," it's true that an inessential gap has been filled.

I recently tried to supplement my itunes-bought copy of Rumours with an itunes-bought copy of Silver Springs, which is only available on a Stevie Nicks best-of. The problem is that the version on the Nicks comp sounds so much better than the version of Rumours that I have.

The two-disc 2002 "Very Best of Fleetwood Mac" has a (remixed?) version of "Silver Springs" on it, as well as a nice selection of Peter Green stuff and random rarities/alternates.

I downloaded my version from that comp.

so when is the hollywood biopic about FM and the making and success of RUMOURS gonna happen???