Rolling Teenpop 2007 Thread

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It's not really doing it for me right now--that chorus sounds a little too much like recent dour hard rock stuff. Maybe I need to hear it on headphones. I love the bridge though.

― Eppy, Friday, 13 April 2007 18:48 (nineteen years ago)

I think "Maybe" is a very different song from this, though.

― Eppy, Friday, 13 April 2007 18:54 (nineteen years ago)

In the time it took me to play "Never Again" once, MySpace registered another 400 plays.

"Maybe" has more dynamics - and more of a tune - but the same guitar crunch. (It's at least as close to "Never Again" as "Addicted" was to "Because Of You," the latter being a ballad and "Addicted" being a rocker.)

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 13 April 2007 18:58 (nineteen years ago)

It is very much like recent dour hard stuff. And that's fine with me, 'cause I love the way her high pitch still sounds full and emotionally deep. The lyrics seem to hitting standard targets - breaking up by letter, trophy wife, etc. "I hope that when you're in bed with her you think of me." (Nothing as idiosyncratic as "Maybe"'s "I don't need to be found - I'm not lost"). So this doesn't have the analytic twists I'm hoping from Ashlee. (I mean, a more interesting lyric would have someone saying to Kelly what she's saying to the guy in this one. But then I'd be asking to turn into Jagger or Lou Reed, which isn't likely.) And maybe you're right that there's a musical promise in the verse that the chorus doesn't live up to. I don't think I can explain why musically. But this is very powerful.

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 13 April 2007 19:14 (nineteen years ago)

seems to BE hitting standard targets
But then I'd be asking HER to turn into Jagger or Lou Reed (I turned into them long ago).

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 13 April 2007 19:43 (nineteen years ago)

So this doesn't have the analytic twists I'm hoping from AN Ashlee.

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 13 April 2007 19:45 (nineteen years ago)

Does anyone know the writing credits on "Never Again"? Wikipedia lists the producer as David Kahne. He seems to have done many and varied pop things (Wikipedia lists Bangles, Sublime, McCartney, Sugar Ray, among others).

Speaking of Wikipedia, that's the source of my saying that RCA scotched "Addicted" as the fifth single from Breakaway; but there's no citation by the statement. ("Initially, 'Addicted' had been planned for release as a fifth single, but was cancelled when RCA deemed its dark tone and message too similar to that of her previous two singles.") Kelly must like the song, since she used it as the name of her 2006 concert tour.

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 13 April 2007 20:45 (nineteen years ago)

Frank, I spent way too long that I should have spent working this afternoon trying to figure out the songwriting credits, with no luck. On the plus side, I did determine that "One Minute" is Kelly Clarkson, Kara Dioguardi, and Raine Maida.

― Greg Fanoe, Friday, 13 April 2007 22:11 (nineteen years ago)

Lex interviews Ciara. (Among other things, the piece is very witty.)

― Frank Kogan, Saturday, 14 April 2007 00:00 (nineteen years ago)

Never Again (Dave Aude Remix) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Never Again.

― MRZBW, Saturday, 14 April 2007 01:08 (nineteen years ago)

From country thread:

This bubblecountry's gal's self-released CD is sounding excellent so far. (Frank really needs to check this album out, I think.) Favorite track so far is the title track, "What U See," absolute Miranda Lambert hard rock with a "Smells Like Teen Spirit" riff; after that so far "Colours" (where she's looking for something in red gray pink yellow orange and bright green chartreuse) and "Butterfly Tattoo" (where dad's gonna kill her if mom doesn't first and nothing says she's 17 like breaking loose -- though actually she's just 14, apparently)--both songs sound really pretty too.

http://cdbaby.com/cd/brandieframpton

[i]-- xhuxk, Friday, April 13, 2007 7:10 AM (Yesterday)
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Heard first track on the Brandie Frampton and thought Xhuxk was deluded. Next two turned me around. Don't have time to listen to the rest tonight.
-- Frank Kogan, Friday, April 13, 2007 10:12 PM (Yesterday)
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"What U See," absolute Miranda Lambert hard rock

Okay, well, she doesn't have Miranda's voice. Which makes a difference, obviously, but then again almost no one has Miranda's voice, and no way am I deluded about this track's rockingness. I don't think. Frank will probably suggest Brandie try "auto-tune," but when people need to be auto-tuned is not something I ever notice (didn't notice it with Mary Weiss or Leanne Kingwell either), and my inclination is to believe that, just like Frank is one of the only people on earth to underrate Funkadelic, he is also one of the only people to overrate autotuneness. Not that I would know, really. (Also not sure which Miranda track Frank's referring to as containing pseudo-Celtic bullshit. I do agree, though, that Celtic bullshit is often fun.) (Especially on punk and metal records, maybe.)

-- xhuxk, Saturday, April 14, 2007 10:27 AM (4 hours ago)
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"Dreams" also real good on that Brandie Frampton record. (Interesting cascading melody to that one; recalls some non-country pop oldie I can't place.) ("The Way It Is" by Bruce Hornsby maybe?? Hmmm...)
(Favorite tracks on Hilary Duff album so far, fwiw, since I brought it up: "Dignity," "Danger," "Gypsy Woman," "Never Stop," "No Work All Play," "Between You And Me," "Dreamer"...which is, um, half of the album. The rest might even be better, time'll tell. Disco pop with trouble lurking in the background.)

-- xhuxk, Saturday, April 14, 2007 2:47 PM (39 minutes ago)

― xhuxk, Saturday, 14 April 2007 20:32 (nineteen years ago)

Fwiw, in context calling Miranda's track pseudo-Celtic bullshit was a compliment. (Track is "Down," my favorite on the album.)

― Frank Kogan, Saturday, 14 April 2007 23:19 (nineteen years ago)

Discussion over on Poptimist about whom the Kelly Clarkson single reminds people of. The day before, during the League Of Pop's playing of PJ Harvey's "Down By The Water" I said that the release of "Never Again" would make "Down By The Water" moot. Tom heard a PJ similarity too. Others mentioned were Alanis, Throwing Muses, Wedding Present, Good Charlotte, Sleater-Kinney, Fleetwood Mac, Evanescence, Lindsey Buckingham, My Vitriol. I was the one who said Evanescence, which is maybe a kinda standard comparison to make, but it's true. Don't think "Never Again" is quite up to the two Moody-Hodges-Clarkson songs - "Because Of You" and "Addicted" - on Breakaway. (Moody and Hodges had both been in Evanescence.) But it'll take a while to decide what I think of "Never Again."

― Frank Kogan, Saturday, 14 April 2007 23:39 (nineteen years ago)

new punk-pop band on Victory called 1997 has a great record with a title from a famous haiku, plus adorable harmonies and occasional banjos

― Dimension 5ive, Sunday, 15 April 2007 00:34 (nineteen years ago)

Checked the 1997 MySpace page but couldn't find a track called "Haikunym."

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 15 April 2007 00:48 (nineteen years ago)

not a famous haiku MAN ya silly.

actually it's kind of awesome, I had the same thing written on an index card on my wall all through high school (actual album title in italics):

sincy my house burned down
I now own a better view
of the rising moon

― Dimension 5ive, Sunday, 15 April 2007 01:00 (nineteen years ago)

"Never Again" is about Hodges, Frank. There are apparently a lot of references that I'm not enough of a fan to understand--she burned one of his letters onstage, he said it sucks to see her face everywhere, etc.

I totally hear Lindsey Buckingham on that guitar now that someone's said something. But mostly "Never Again" reminds me of Shakira's "Don't Bother." "I would never wish bad things, but I don't wish you well" always gets "She went to private school, she speaks perfect French" stuck in my head, and it bugs me every time that they turn out to be different melodies.

― Nia, Sunday, 15 April 2007 04:14 (nineteen years ago)

First Impression: Wow. "Never Again" is amazing. Angry Kelly Clarkson rock. Who knew?

― Mordechai Shinefield, Sunday, 15 April 2007 07:06 (nineteen years ago)

I knew.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 15 April 2007 18:59 (nineteen years ago)

From the rolling country thread:

A Taylor Swift outtake (or demo), "Come In With The Rain," is downloadable from this site (scroll down the page). The rip is low quality, but the singing and song are good, gentle sadness, which she does oh so well. "I leave my window open/'Cause I'm too tired tonight to call your name/Just know I'm right here hopin'/That you'll come in with the rain." (I like the phrase "in with the rain" for not quite being a metaphor, just accompanying the sorrow that's there, whether the guy shows or not.)

Here it is on YouTube.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 15 April 2007 19:00 (nineteen years ago)

I can't imagine whomever Hodges married being more of a trophy wife than Kelly would be.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 15 April 2007 19:06 (nineteen years ago)

My wife finds the Clarkson lyrics completely ridiculous. Something along the lines of: "Never again will I love you! Never!" Thou Dost Protest Too Much. But I think it adds another dimension to the song. She's really angry, but most of that anger is because she did love him and was betrayed. It's not just a kiss-off song. It's a heart-broken kiss-off song. (Comparable to "Go Your Own Way" maybe? "Loving you / Isn't the right thing to do / How can I ever change things / That I feel.")

― Mordechai Shinefield, Sunday, 15 April 2007 19:31 (nineteen years ago)

Charlotte's right that such an intensity of anger indicates an ongoing emotional involvement; the lyrics demonstrate a complicity that they don't acknowledge, and I think they'd be smarter and more interesting if they did acknowledge the complicity. But I agree that the involvement adds dimensions not ridiculousness to the song (or the ridiculous overinvolvement adds dimensions to the song).

Of course, the phrase "Never Again" is a loaded term for people like me and you, and Kelly knows nothing about it. (Think of what the Ramones would have made out of a song by that title.)

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 15 April 2007 20:05 (nineteen years ago)

The loaded meaning of "Never Again" actually occurred to me before listening to the song, and the only reason I didn't bring it up was because the lyrics seemed to have nothing to do with the title. Obv. The Ramones would've taken that title and played against type (like with Blitzkrieg Bop - turn an ugly title into a bouncy song). The fact that Clarkson takes it completely seriously without acknowledging the context of the expression almost violates the original context - you can listen to the song and forget what the title means. (Obviously not forget, but in the moment it seems less significant.) But doesn't she have producers/agents/people who could tell her that calling a kiss-off song "Never Again" is probably an iffy move?

(It immediately reminded me of the Remedy song "Never Again" that he did for Wu-Tang, actually.)

― Mordechai Shinefield, Sunday, 15 April 2007 20:11 (nineteen years ago)

Or here's a question: "Never Again" is an expression that we identify with certain cultural/social ideas (never again will there be a holocaust, etc). The expression "Never Again" doesn't literally mean that idea, but it's come to be shorthand for it on fliers and in speeches and writing. Is Clarkson actually doing an overt injustice to those themes by reappropriating that expression to mean something far less loaded? Or does it not matter, because the theme is, ultimately, disconnected from the idea that it represents?

― Mordechai Shinefield, Sunday, 15 April 2007 20:14 (nineteen years ago)

But doesn't she have producers/agents/people who could tell her that calling a kiss-off song "Never Again" is probably an iffy move?

Nope. And no one told Hilary that gypsies are people now.

― dabug, Sunday, 15 April 2007 20:18 (nineteen years ago)

Think the new Björk song, "Earth Intruders," is a lot more fun and less irritating than she usually is. Or it's just as irritating but "irritating ha-ha" rather than "irritating-irritating." Good rhythm, which helps get anything over. (Timbaland the producer.)

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 15 April 2007 20:24 (nineteen years ago)

Kelly's not doing an injustice to the themes, since she has nothing to do with them. But since I know the themes, for a couple of seconds they served to (unfairly) make Kelly seem overwrought and ridiculous in her little problems. And it's not right to use the Holocaust to make our actual none world-important problems trivial in comparison, but it's an automatic reaction I had at first. Didn't get in the way of the song for me, just caused a moment's hesitation. I didn't think the Ramones wasn't were playing against type so much as they were conflating normal human impulses (e.g. to dominate in love relationships, "Today Your Love, Tomorrow The World") with murderous impulses, for comic effect but also to suggest that the difference was in degree (and the opportunity to act on the impulses) not in kind. They were finding a comic-hyperbolic-expressionist way to talk about boy-girl stuff and social maladjustment.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 15 April 2007 20:39 (nineteen years ago)

"I didn't think the Ramones wasn't were playing against type" = "I didn't think the Ramones were playing against type"

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 15 April 2007 20:40 (nineteen years ago)

Kelly is so not a trophy wife.

― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, 15 April 2007 21:30 (nineteen years ago)

More people need to post on Rolling Emo Thread 2007, or I'm gonna have to start talking about emo music here again.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Sunday, 15 April 2007 21:33 (nineteen years ago)

Never Again is good. But it pales in comparison to the best of Breakaway. The chorus is forgettable, and the hooks mediocre.

I think I actually may learn to love the lyrics, in time.

― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, 15 April 2007 22:03 (nineteen years ago)

Matt, "pales in comparison" is a bit stronger language than I would use, but I'm starting to come around to this opinion as well. It's still a great single, and I'm still looking forward to the album as some of the other new stuff we've heard from Kelly ("Maybe", "Anymore") has been much better.

Was listening to my sister-in-law's 9 year old sister's best friend's (tongue twister alert!) iPod this weekend which contained:
1) "Fergalicious" and "Glamorous"
2) "This Is Why I'm Hot"
3) "Snap Yo Fingaz"
4) Several other current rap hits that I can't quite recall now
5) "Girlfriend"
6) The entire Carrie Underwood album.
Clean versions of all the rap hits, of course

We discussed the music for a little bit and she revealed that she only likes "Girlfriend" OK and that she doesn't even like the Carrie Underwood album. She gave me a look of profound pity when I said I liked the Carrie Underwood album, which was very unsettling.

― Greg Fanoe, Sunday, 15 April 2007 22:12 (nineteen years ago)

Awesome interview week continues w/ Abby McDonald and Robyn. We (Robyn and I) feel the same way about Gwen!

A: One comparison to your record might be the first Gwen Stefani album, in terms of the experimental approach to pop.

R: To me, she doesn't go far enough. I like her style, and I think she's really cool and everything, but I want songs! You know, I liked the one where she's talking to her boyfriend...

A: "Cool"?

R: Right, I thought that was a good song. But I want the melodies, I want the bittersweet.

Favorite line is about Cheiron and her experience with Max Martin/Denniz Pop:

A: If anything, it seems harder because they're so precise. Writing great pop songs is one of the hardest things to do.

R: Yes! If you were to compare songwriting to science, then writing pop songs would be rocket science. Because everything has to work, and when you're up there, you don't have anything to fall back on. Everything has to be perfect. So it's been a great school. And overall, I think that Sweden has a unique way of looking at melodies.

― dabug, Monday, 16 April 2007 01:37 (nineteen years ago)

Woops forgot the link, here's the Robyn interview.

― dabug, Monday, 16 April 2007 01:38 (nineteen years ago)

Speaking of interviews, I don't think we've yet quoted on this thread the Blender interview with USDA (in regard to their single "White Girl," in which Christina Aguilera becomes a metaphor for coke):

Blender: You guys could've named any white girl on the single, why Christina Aguilera?

Jeezy: We're in the hood, everybody want to holler at Christina.

Blood Raw: Everybody.

Jeezy: She's fine as a motherfucker.

Blender: Why not Paris Hilton?

Jeezy: I can't fuck with Paris, she be higher than me. She do shit I don't do.

Blender: Lindsay Lohan?

Jeezy: I don't even know who the fuck that is.

Blender: You use a lot of different metaphors to describe certain things...

Jeezy: Describe what? Be clear, baby.

Blender: Basically, are you worried about running out of white things to compare drugs to?

Jeezy: No man, I don't think we'll run out of anything. You don't ever run out of being yourself. Yeah!

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 16 April 2007 02:05 (nineteen years ago)

Daddy Yankee remix of "Impacto" f. Fergie; the basic track is solid but unremarkable reggaeton (produced by noted reggaeton mogul Scott Storch), but whenever the vocodors and synths are going - which is more than half the song - the thing is very catchy. Fergie is good for adding vocal variety, but the vocodor-synth stuff is what's pleasing about this.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 16 April 2007 05:19 (nineteen years ago)

Yung Berg's "Sexy Lady" isn't what we've been calling "teenpop" on this thread (though our man Yung only became a nonteen in the last year or two), but it's gorgeous in much the same way that Lloyd's "You" is, and there's no reason yung 'uns won't themselves warm to its beauty.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 16 April 2007 06:49 (nineteen years ago)

so can we talk about the Fergie track Glamorous here? i think its teenpop even though Fergie is probably 35 cuz teens listen to it.

I was totally wowed by this when I heard it on the radio the other night on the way to get some graham crackers and Borat. I didn't even realize it was Fergie which may have helped (i don't have cable and can only usually pull in country stations). Up until the Luda verse it sounds like it could easily be one of those great, but kinda non descript tracks that'll turn up on top 40 radio never get much play and then float away into the ether (if wil.i.am wasn't playing with Luda's voice though his cameo would have been almost completely worthless). I love turning on the radio and hearing something new with very little context to fully understand it. Its a rare thing these days what with the internet and whatnot.

here is Bill lamb's take from about.com:

Pros
* Smooth r&b style that goes down easy
* Light touch
Cons
* Enough with the spelling!
* Once again treads almost too close to Gwen Stefani
Description
* Silky smooth r&b
* Standard issue Ludacris rap
* Lyrics of living in luxury

I have to say I totally disagree with his cons. First, pop music can never have enough spelling or counting (it took me a few times before I could figure out what she is spelling). And second, treading close to Gwen Stefani isn't a criticism considering Fergie is outdoing Gwen Stefani (glamorous manages to cohere as a song while that gwen song that borrowrs from Welcome back Kotter is a little too ADD for me even).

― artdamages, Monday, 16 April 2007 13:43 (nineteen years ago)

Sure, if Mary Weiss belongs on this thread (and it's my thread and I say she does) former kid star Stacy Ferguson sure does.

― Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 04:10 (nineteen years ago)

Avril alb being streamed on AOL Listening Party. Six songs in, I like her, I like the tunefulness, but I'm fed up with the overkill, all this grabbing me by the shoulders and shaking me with joy. So far, "Hot" is my favorite after "Girlfriend." I way way way prefer Let Go.

(I'm having similar overkill problems with the Fefe, not to mention the Kelly Clarkson single.)

― Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 04:19 (nineteen years ago)

(Which isn't to say that I don't love the Kelly single.)

― Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 04:20 (nineteen years ago)

Up to "I Don't Have To Try" on the Avril and this song actually works with all its heavy tunefulness and heavy thrash, nice Brontosaurus dance. OK, and onto "One Of These Girls," and I'm back to thinking here are good melodies and harmonies being stomped to death.

― Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 04:25 (nineteen years ago)

i love the avril album - i know what frank means about the overkill but it's not a major problem for me, though it s the difference between "very good avril, 4 stars for you" and "OMG EVERYONE U MUST HEAR THIS". my favourites are probably 'runaway' and the title track. she raps about periods!

frank what are all the musical influences she's biting? a lot of it, those massive piss-taking guitar riffs and that punky drumming, sounds really familiar, and they sound like deliberate references to things, but it's not a genre i know anything about...

i love love love 'glamorous' too - it's such a curveball. those harmonies! who knew fergie ferg was at all versed in the arts of subtlety? and yeah fergie 06/07 is what people expected/hoped gwen 06/07 to be, logical continuation from gwen 05.

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 06:51 (nineteen years ago)

R: To me, she doesn't go far enough. I like her style, and I think she's really cool and everything, but I want songs!

in a nutshell, robyn gives away that she really doesn't 'get' pop at all. grrr.

i really love the 'white girl' song jeezy talks about!

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 06:52 (nineteen years ago)

"in a nutshell, robyn gives away that she really doesn't 'get' pop at all. grrr. "

I think you're wrong here Lex, you're importing onto Robyn ideas about what she's trying to do which i don't think she shares (not that i want to accord her authorial priority w/r/t her music - but if we're gonna talk about what robyn does or does not 'get'...).

To prefer "Cool" to "Hollaback Girl" (and hell, I do, although I like the latter well enough) is not the same as not 'getting' pop. I suspect that her notion of pop is very similar to Xenomania's, although she's not as good at making it. But this is a difference in degree rather than kind.

― Tim F, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 07:13 (nineteen years ago)

And anyway I thought it was when Robyn departed from 'songs' that you disliked her?

― Tim F, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 07:13 (nineteen years ago)

it's the "she doesn't go far enough" i object to - i may be misinterpreting robyn but i've heard this criticism of popstars quite a lot, that despite a tendency towards one or two traditionally non-pop values (usually 'innovation') which can be approved of, they conform to traditional pop values in other ways (eg sexualised image, lyrics which are clichéd or obnoxiously dumb or non-feminist). it's the assumption that going "far" ("beyond industry proscriptions") is what gwen stefani should be about.

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 08:31 (nineteen years ago)

Lex you're precisely misreading it I think - my interpretation was that Gwen doesn't go far enough into pop! Possibly Robyn is implying that she is a pop-rock star who has only recently jumped onto chart-pop and "hasn't gone far enough"; more specifically Gwen is afraid to write "classic" pop songs with big emotions and melodrama.

(if so, she's wrong - No Doubt had a history of big pop ballads - but this interpretation makes more sense in context than the one you're giving it)

You could say that this classicism is itself a form of rockism, except that the song she singles out as being great is "Cool", i.e. perhaps the least rockist song ever!

― Tim F, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 09:15 (nineteen years ago)

Ha ha as well of all the big female pop stars currently Gwen is perhaps the least sexualised/cliched/non-feminist (compare/contrast with current Nelly Furtado!), although I could imagine people might find her obnoxiously dumb at times.

― Tim F, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 09:18 (nineteen years ago)

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