Is Rakim possibly the best rapper

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(You also might wanna check that link.)

Dude Mannie Fresh was #2 on his list...

Also I still think you are approaching hip-hop with a different system of values (and I'm not talking about supremacy of technique here) than myself. And I don't think its fair to say that anyone who disagrees with you that L'Trimm is one of the best hip-hop acts of the 80s is a technique-obsessed rockist.

― djdee2005, Monday, 29 March 2004 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)

The list I called stodgy didn't have Mannie Fresh on it, DJdee. (I didn't mind that other one; e.g., I DO think Lil Wayne is underrated.)

― chuck, Monday, 29 March 2004 17:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm down with anybody who can rap about Baudelaire...

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Monday, 29 March 2004 17:33 (twenty-two years ago)

You'd like Peter Laughner, then! (And Serge Gainsbourg, maybe.)

― chuck, Monday, 29 March 2004 17:36 (twenty-two years ago)

In fact, Chuck, I do! I've taken the guitar player for a ride!

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Monday, 29 March 2004 17:55 (twenty-two years ago)

you might really like royce, chuck! maybe you'd like his earlier party-rap even more. The trackmasterz produced "you can't touch" is great on that style. Also everyone else who hears about royce will like him too, so you should run a review, nudgenudge.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 29 March 2004 18:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Royce is too boring for anyone to ever like. I can't see how people could handle mixtapes and shit from the guy. He's like any other painfully generic unlikeable rapper out there (Nature, Skillz, etc).

― Rollie Pemberton (Rollie Pemberton), Monday, 29 March 2004 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Hahaha Rollie OTM.

― djdee2005, Monday, 29 March 2004 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

haha finally i find a rapper that i think me & the "skillz" set will both like and NO! wtf? i mean he's more melodic than rakim or nas by a longshot, verbally plenty complex, does he just not have enough dumb "i r00l this -><- much" jokes for you?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 29 March 2004 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Is there something secretly poptastic about royce i'm missing that brings the h8?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 29 March 2004 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

"melodic" = rockist value when discussing rappers.

― djdee2005, Monday, 29 March 2004 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually I think it's something anti-poptastic. I like him though.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 29 March 2004 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

"melodic" = popist value when discussing rappers.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 29 March 2004 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

You're imposing a set of values on a genre that doesn't follow that line of thought.

Whats the diff between saying "this rapper isn't melodic enough" and "this beat doesn't use real instruments"?

― djdee2005, Monday, 29 March 2004 19:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Okayplayer?

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 29 March 2004 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay I know like one person who will think that was funny. Pls ignore thx k bye.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 29 March 2004 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean I understand the "popist" line of thought but then how do you explain (and perhaps I'm making an assumption here) all the love you guys give Dizzee Rascal (whom I also dig)? I mean, his stuff is pretty anti-pop in its cacophony.

― djdee2005, Monday, 29 March 2004 19:22 (twenty-two years ago)

"You're imposing a set of values on a genre that doesn't follow that line of thought."

Which is obviously not as much fun, or as honest, or as interesting, as kissing the genre's butt as if he was the teacher's pet, right?

― chuck, Monday, 29 March 2004 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

An assumption you're making.

If I was "kissing a genre's butt" how could I appreciate Dizzee Rascal?

― djdee2005, Monday, 29 March 2004 19:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, you sound like Pete Townshend's dad telling him he's not supposed to do that with a guitar, you know? Since when do genres make the rules for people thinking about them?

― chuck, Monday, 29 March 2004 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not the one arguing that a rapper is not "melodic" enough.

― djdee2005, Monday, 29 March 2004 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Saying "Royce is a cool rapper cos he's melodic" is not the same at all as saying "All rap should be melodic", anyway.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Monday, 29 March 2004 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

What I'm getting at is that there is something aurally pleasing about Rakim's monotone, confidence, voice in general.

― djdee2005, Monday, 29 March 2004 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Saying "Royce is a cool rapper cos he's melodic" is not the same at all as saying "All rap should be melodic", anyway.

I was more perturbed by the positive comparison to Rakim, who is a much more distinctive rapper - I'm saying that how distinctive/charismatic a rapper is doesn't NECCESSARILY have anything to do w/ melodicism. It certainly doesn't in Rakim's case.

― djdee2005, Monday, 29 March 2004 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

But why is the genre's line of thought better than Sterling's line of thought? What if the genre's line of thought is FULL OF SHIT?? (Though for the life of me I don't understand how being "melodic" has nothing to do with hip-hop's line of thought, since hip-hop has had great melodies for, what, a quarter century now, at least?)

― chuck, Monday, 29 March 2004 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Not only does royce have melodies, he has INTERESTING ones! I mean like ones that are interesting and if played on wonky old keyboards instead of rapped would have ppl comparing him to prefuse or whatever. Which is just to underline my bafflement at how he's "generic". I guess that just means he doesn't rap about spaceships or something (apologies nickalicious).

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 29 March 2004 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

50 cent has interesting melodies too, though.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 29 March 2004 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

But less prefuse interesting and more 70s r&b interesting.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 29 March 2004 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Dude Sterling why are you apologizing? Am I the nu-ILM-default-sci-fi-hip-hop-lyric guy?

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 29 March 2004 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought when we were talking "melodic" we were talking about his actual rapping....yes?

Of course, Chuck, everyone's opinion is just as valuable as anyone elses. Just like in the article where the elementary school kids reviewed Radiohead tracks, it was cool because it cleverly jabbed at people who think that people need to "know" about something to enjoy it. I don't claim that he has to like Rakim. But I'm arguing that enjoying Rakim is NOT rockist, it is not blind acceptance of some genre's "line of thought," it's that I find Rakim to be a more charismatic and interesting rapper than Royce.

the crack about spaceships = stupid. I listen to Lil Jon and David Banner and T.I. and Rakim and enjoy them all.

― djdee2005, Monday, 29 March 2004 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

spacesHIP-HOP

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 29 March 2004 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I would say though that I don't think of lyrical creativity so much as using uncommon words/topics as I do creative perspectives & wordplay. I'd rather hear creative rhymes about the familiar than half-assed rhymes about crazy shit.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 29 March 2004 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

When I suggested that valuing melodicism in your rappers was "rockist" i was implying that I feel there is more to value in rapping than its melodicism - Its like when Jack White complained about hip-hop not having certain values that he insisted music he enjoyed should have. hip-hop doesn't require melodicism for me to enjoy it.

― djdee2005, Monday, 29 March 2004 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

And of course, like Jack White, Sterling can disagree with my take on it.

― djdee2005, Monday, 29 March 2004 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I think a distinction not often enough made wrt hip-hop vocals is that of melodicism vs. expression, cuz sometimes dudes might be more melodic but less expressive (50 Cent fr'instance, nice melodies w/ somewhat deadpan delivery) and others more expressive but less melodic (like Del's tonedeaf conversational style). I think a huge bit of Rakim's appeal is how expressive he is.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 29 March 2004 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

comparing me with jack white = a new low for you rollie. yr just trying to get nate to like me and amy p. to hate me.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 29 March 2004 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Rollie?

― djdee2005, Monday, 29 March 2004 20:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I've heard plenty of Royce songs and if you feel that his 'melodies' (do you mean his rhyme schemes?) are at all 'groundbreaking' or 'interesting', I'm inclined to disagree. Maybe this is a change on the new album or something, but typically, the guy is this hardline, cocky, hey-i'm-tough-and-i-have-nothing-to-say-really-i-hate-eminem-though emcee, you know, it's just boring.

Spaceships?

Oh and when I think of rhyme schemes, I think of Mikah 9 or Pharoahe Monch and such, btw.

― Rollie Pemberton (Rollie Pemberton), Monday, 29 March 2004 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

(oops got you two confused -- a new low anyway). Anyway when I say rhyme schemes I mean rhyme schemes and when I say melodies I mean melodies and yeah he does hate eminem but can everyone stop talking about it coz he did tracks when he liked eminem and even tracks WITH eminem and they were good too. If you haven't heard his stuff WITH eminem and you haven't heard the new album then what have you heard? just like the em disses from the mixtapes? Or have you heard the whole "Build And Destroy: Lost Sessions" set? coz there are a few really outstanding trax on there, tho they're clearly a mishmosh of demos.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 29 March 2004 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I've heard everything except for the new record. I never once said he was bad, just boring and generic. Some of the Build And Destroy stuff is strong and his songs with Eminem are arguably the best ones he's on. So yeah. I just don't think he's anything special.

― Rollie Pemberton (Rollie Pemberton), Monday, 29 March 2004 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

That song w/ Royce on Eminem's first album is one of my favorite Eminem tracks ever. I like it way more than anything off the MM LP or The Eminem Show.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 29 March 2004 21:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Yet I can't remember the name. Lay off the doobie Nick, they say.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 29 March 2004 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

While I have little useful to add to this enlightneing discussion, I'd like to mention that when I saw the Hip-Hop video I was convinced Royce was actually Guru. Who also kind of sucks, incidentally.

― Sym (shmuel), Monday, 29 March 2004 21:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I like Guru a lot. I mean, obviously the large contributions Gang Starr made were largely the result of Premier, but I like Guru's laconic, chill, laid-back aesthetic, and I think it sounds really good over Premier's jazzier beats.

― djdee2005, Monday, 29 March 2004 23:35 (twenty-two years ago)

so honestly even say Boom does nothing for you?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 30 March 2004 05:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm the verbal-spit Smith Wesson
I unload with sick spit the quick wit could split a split-second
Bomb with a lit wick expression
You here a tick tick then you testin'
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits
So trust me, I'm as live as it gets

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 30 March 2004 05:58 (twenty-two years ago)

― wildabeast, Tuesday, 30 March 2004 06:53 (twenty-two years ago)

what about anything my jigga

― wildabeast, Tuesday, 30 March 2004 06:53 (twenty-two years ago)

AT LEAST WE KNOW ROYCE DOESN'T SWALLOW

― Rollie Pemberton (Rollie Pemberton), Tuesday, 30 March 2004 15:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Well in my opinion Notorious BIG is #1.... Bad ass Flow.. Bad Azz Story telling.. Badd AZZ batling... that is bad, that's why he was a Bad Boy. he was raw... hell yeah..

― Jessy, Sunday, 4 April 2004 23:40 (twenty-two years ago)

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Is Rakim possibly the best rapper - ever?