should i give the grateful dead a chance?

jerry's solo album has "deal," "sugaree," and "bird song" which are three of the best in the repertoire. better i think, than any of the staples introduced in ace, depending on how you feel about "playing in the band"

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/a42dbb_47453d81dd874b93b58e22961ff5cc3f~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_1112,h_1112,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/a42dbb_47453d81dd874b93b58e22961ff5cc3f~mv2.jpg

the Ace studio recording of "Black Throated Wind" is top notch.

As I understood from one of the band bio books, these solo albums happened as they got a pretty sweet deal for making the solo albums right as the Warner deal was ending. They used the money to buy houses etc, which is why those tunes never ended up on a dead studio album.

Steal Your Donut

Speaking of which, what is the best GD bio?

The Dennis McNally book is the official one but I thought the Rock Scully one was the most entertaining read. The Dark Star oral biography of Jerry Garcia is a good read but very sad too. Phil Leah’s book is pretty good too, but more from his POV.

Thanks.

Bear Owsley’s is wild and it’s absolutely insane no one has tried to make a bio movie about him.

I was pleasantly surprised by Fare Thee Well. It’s not exactly a happy tale but pretty revealing about how these guys interacted in the very late years.

And unlike most other products of the official GD machine, the Good Old Grateful Deadcast is essential listening imo. TONS of info and “I was there” testimonials from a larger cast of characters than is typical of most GD histories.

Do you get the dulcet tones of Big Steve?

Not much; I feel like it’s mostly studio engineers and producers and celebs like Lee Ranaldo, E Costello, Ira Kaplan and other stoners who attended shows long, long ago.

Second the Good Ol’ Grateful Deadcast… I’m sure I’ve sung its praises here or on another GD thread. It’s probably one of the best, most meticulously produced podcasts I’ve ever heard on any topic, let alone just about the Dead.

^^ yes

I third Good Ol' GDcast (great production values/storytelling IMO), but would also highly rec 36 From The Vault (with Steven Hyden and Rob Mitchum) to any Dead newbies, even though that pod is now defunct--that show's methodical run through the Dick's Picks series was a huge help to me in understanding the live setlist canon (including the songs off Ace and Garcia mentioned slightly upthread), how it often (almost always?) significantly differs/differed from their studio output and finding exciting pockets/eras of live bootlegs of theirs in general.

(Also, I take Kirk Van Houten to be a Bob Weir cowboy song devotee, or maybe strictly Chuck Berry covers)

certainly strikes me as the kind of character to think the definitive version of "Good Lovin'" was by the dead

LOVE the Deadcast.

I'll fifth the Deadcast. I was hesitant about an "official" podcast, but it's really well done. I also appreciate how they get the dirty, but necessary, work of the sales pitch over and done with in the first 2-3 minutes before turning it over to Jesse Jarnow. I love the way they find the greatest stories from tangential people and fans.

I almost skipped a recent episode ostensibly about "Money, Money", arguably one of the worst Dead songs of the '70s and wisely shelved after a few performances, but it detoured into some fantastic Ned Lagin talk and tour stories from John Perry (of The Only Ones!).

The detours are so great and often have a tenuous-at-best connection to whatever song is supposed to be the topic of the episode.

I hate you all - I’m now binge listening this for the first time.

Some of the images just took the person’s face and added rainbow tie-dye clothing or rainbows above their head. One put a person in Dead gear at a baseball stadium in the backdrop, though it looked nothing like Oracle Park despite having Oracle’s logo across the top of a scoreboard. One lucky fan had their entire face turned into a tie-dye skull, complete with a missing nose and decayed gums and lips

caught up with the deadcast through AB. i will have to say i never paid much attention to the lyrics of "Till the Morning Comes" but those last bit of lyrics definitely aren't good. i did find it funny how they were suggesting the reason they stopped playing it was because of those lines yet the band had no problem playing "Mexicali Blues"

I've gone back and forth on that one (assuming you mean "You're my woman now, make yourself easy."). I don't think it's a caveman-like order, but it does have a tinge of the ugly, patriarchal side of so-called "free love." OTOH, the rest of the song is kind of opaque to me and I've never been sure I understood the context.

"We can share the women we can share the wine" always struck me as a more obviously problematic line.

that line has always bothered me but like the narrator is an escaped criminal who murders several people and then the other con he escaped with, it would be really weird to say "oh ok but they have to be noble murderers who are cool about women"

xp yeah, I get how it could be considered problematic. i think my brain just had it wired in as some hippy "mellow out" chant.

singing about having sex with a 14 year old however....

xp yeah, but it still feels very celebratory the way the line is sung

it's a story! literally the next thing the guy does is say "I killed the watchman and took his watch & some money" and his interlocutor says "fuck...I mean if you killed that guy, who's to say you won't kill me" and then by the end of the song Shannon has killed Jack Straw. it's in a major key, Jack Straw does not feel bad about his outlaw life -- he's just trying to stay alive and he's not any kind of moral example. he does indeed feel celebratory -- he just busted out of prison and killed a guard! sharing the women and the wine is considerably less problematic than his status as A FUCKIN MURDERER.

Wait doesn't Jack Straw kill Shannon - i.e. the more peaceful and decent outlaw kills his friend because he sees what's coming for him if he doesn't?

though it seems like some people interpret the "cut his buddy down" verse as Shannon being hung for his crimes and Jack Straw giving him a decent burial.

Wait doesn't Jack Straw kill Shannon - i.e. the more peaceful and decent outlaw kills his friend because he sees what's coming for him if he doesn't?

yes, that's correct, my bad, but I do think that Jack Straw takes preemptive action against Shannon -- "cut him down" without any antecedent reference to an execution has to mean "killed him."

other examples of problematic behavior sung as if it were a good time in Grateful Dead songs include engineering a locomotive while under the influence of cocaine; shooting the owner of a jewelry store who has already handed over the merchandise; consciously practicing adultery for the sole purpose of sense gratification ("new minglewood blues"); animal cruelty ("Samson & Delilah"); threatening to shoot Mr. Benson with a shotgun for no reason at all

we'll just leave me & my uncle aside as its coauthor was plenty problematic on his own but that's one of the most sordid songs in the catalog

Try dissecting the behavior in the average Child Ballad by today's standards and you can pretty much stop listening to folk music. Willy O'Winsbury has some of the most deeply fucked and painful misogyny of any song ever. You are never getting me to stop listening to that song.

it's a story! literally the next thing the guy does is say "I killed the watchman and took his watch & some money" and his interlocutor says "fuck...I mean if you killed that guy, who's to say you won't kill me" and then by the end of the song Shannon has killed Jack Straw. it's in a major key, Jack Straw does not feel bad about his outlaw life -- he's just trying to stay alive and he's not any kind of moral example. he does indeed feel celebratory -- he just busted out of prison and killed a guard! sharing the women and the wine is considerably less problematic than his status as A FUCKIN MURDERER.

― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi)

IDK, I read it kinda different. First off, outlaw songs _do_ tend to glamorize outlaws. Ned Kelly, Stag Lee Shelton, yeah, they're bad people but there's also this depiction of them as being cool counterculture figures a lot of the time. Like "Yes, murder is bad, BUT."

And look, the Dead, like a lot of hippies of their era, did have kind of a paternalistic, possessive attitude towards women. I mean they were out there hanging out with David Crosby, and like "Triad" is a better word than "Throuple" but that's about the only good thing I can say about it. (Well also the music is good IG.) Real big "unicorn hunter" vibe to that little ditty.

So yeah, I do think the casual misogyny of the Dead bears further scrutiny. Saying "well the song is about a murderer" reminds me a little bit of those people who say "Frank Zappa isn't a misogynist, he's a MISANTHROPE!" Not buying it.

Try dissecting the behavior in the average Child Ballad by today's standards and you can pretty much stop listening to folk music. Willy O'Winsbury has some of the most deeply fucked and painful misogyny of any song ever. You are never getting me to stop listening to that song.

― il lavoro mi rovina la giornata (PBKR)

I don't think anybody's out to "cancel" the Child Ballads or saying that people shouldn't listen to Jack Straw. (Well, I guess the second poster in the thread - no relation to me - is saying nobody should listen to Jack Straw.) What I am saying is that the Dead were skeevy people who did some skeevy shit. Any band that goes around drugging people without their consent are, uh, not a band I'd want to be in the close vicinity of.

Also, now you got me curious about how the ballad is exceptionally misogynist. Like I'm not saying it's got progressive gender politics or nothing, but I'm reading the lyrics to the Pentangle version and the king's daughter is pregnant and the king is like "Show me the motherfucker who did it, I'll fucking kill him." And then Willie shows up and the king is like "Damn, I can see why my daughter got with you. If I'd been a girl, I'd get with you myself no homo. You wanna rule all my lands?" And then Willie is like "Nah fam I'll marry your daughter but she should get the lands". Not seeing the exceptional misogyny, honestly. Is it because the king wants to see his daughter naked to see if she's pregnant? Yeah that's shitty but I don't know that it was super exceptional back in the day?

well fuck I deleted my post. but yeah, I mean, the first time I heard "jack straw" I rolled my eyes so hard. but as a text it's so clearly a story with characters speaking in their own narrative voices...like, it's weird to say "when they talk about objectifying women in this song, that's the authors speaking, but when they talk about murdering your traveling companion, that's just a story." if we were on brown-eyed women or sugar magnolia, shit, the way hippies thought of women as cooks who pay your bills and give you children was gross no doubt and is to be found throughout Hunter's corpus. but "Jack Straw" ain't it imo.

Also, now you got me curious about how the ballad is exceptionally misogynist. Like I'm not saying it's got progressive gender politics or nothing, but I'm reading the lyrics to the Pentangle version and the king's daughter is pregnant and the king is like "Show me the motherfucker who did it, I'll fucking kill him." And then Willie shows up and the king is like "Damn, I can see why my daughter got with you. If I'd been a girl, I'd get with you myself no homo. You wanna rule all my lands?" And then Willie is like "Nah fam I'll marry your daughter but she should get the lands". Not seeing the exceptional misogyny, honestly. Is it because the king wants to see his daughter naked to see if she's pregnant? Yeah that's shitty but I don't know that it was super exceptional back in the day?

The father, suspecting his daughter is pregnant, forces her to stand on a stone and disrobe, while he inspects he body. Then, he drags her partner to be hung right in front of her. All this after he has left her alone for months or probably years on end. I don't have kids, but this casual and coarse betrayal just really, really hits me in a powerful way every time. And yes, it happened all the time.

And then Willie shows up and the king is like "Damn, I can see why my daughter got with you. If I'd been a girl, I'd get with you myself no homo.

This part is truly hilarious.

I always took the ending as Willie rejecting the lands completely and saying, "we're going to get our own land, thanks, and plenty of it."

The father, suspecting his daughter is pregnant, forces her to stand on a stone and disrobe, while he inspects he body. Then, he drags her partner to be hung right in front of her. All this after he has left her alone for months or probably years on end. I don't have kids, but this casual and coarse betrayal just really, really hits me in a powerful way every time. And yes, it happened all the time.

― il lavoro mi rovina la giornata (PBKR)

I think it's good that you experience it that way! A couple of years ago, I'd have this experience where I'd complain about some awful or shocking instance of patriarchy and some woman or another around me (often my ex-wife) would shrug and say "Welcome to being a woman." I work really hard to not treat other people like that, because I remember how shitty and invalidating it felt. At the same time, yeah, it's only been a few short years but I've become exceptionally burnt out and jaded when it comes to stuff like you describe. That's my advice... I can't stay shocked, stay mad, and live, but honest, anybody who can be shocked or mad about this shit, I _strongly_ encourage it.

That's kind of how I feel about the Dead's misogyny. It's not that the Dead's attitudes were or are exceptional - it's that they _aren't_. I listen to the Dead a lot, even the bits where they sing sometimes. The way they sing about women, the attitude they have towards women overall - it shouldn't be _normal_. It shouldn't be dismissed or minimized or accepted. Jerry's been dead a long time, but the attitudes towards women in a lot of their songs very definitely _aren't_. That's all I'd say. That the way they sing about women is, in its own way, sometimes as deeply fucked as Willy O'Winsbury.

tbf, the Dead could get a pass, on a technicality at least, for not having actually written like 99.9% of the lyrics they sang, right?

I know I've said it here before, but Pigpen's Lovelight raps are the one bit of Dead misogyny that I just can't abide. The characters in songs may be despicable, but the women in the audience are actual real people trying to enjoy a show in that moment and king creep is up there telling all the lonely guys in the audience to immediately go proposition them for sex.

I had a lot of friends who were deadheads in college, including a lot who were women, some who even went to the women's college at our school and were very actively feminist. I'd be kind of curious to hear their take on all this, also the takes of women who were deadheads back in the 70s and such.

I'm also not for "canceling" any of this stuff, but I do kind of gradually find myself more sensitive to it as I get older, and therefore more inclined to skip certain songs. I actually find it easier to abide in something like a Child ballad, maybe just because it feels like it's from an entirely different and strange time, like the stories in the Old Testament. OTOH, I used to like to play and sing "Banks of the Ohio" and now I just viscerally don't like doing it.

threatening to shoot Mr. Benson with a shotgun for no reason at all

he's a cop

After avoiding them for decades, I’ve decided that the way I appreciate the Dead the best is via cover bands. I never play them at home or in car, used to dip into some live shows while I was working, but it’s (probably obviously) as a live experience that they shone. I never experienced them in that context, so Dark Star Orchestra or some local cover band is the best I can recreate that vibe.

I just bought a ticket for a Halloween concert and I’m honestly pretty stoked.

if you can see Richards Pictures (I'm not sure how often they play out of So Cal) definitely do.

Thanks for the tip, I’ll keep a lookout.

Also, belated grokking of the band’s name, that’s great.

“Don’t murder me…”