Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

yeah that's much wilder than even I knew, to some extent you have to feel some sympathy for Gail on a pure human level (left alone with these kids while her husband was almost certainly cheating on her every night) but she seems like a pretty toxic person herself.

glad to see Dweezil make it, sort of - have heard a lot of great things about those shows, tbh from what I've heard they're probably more enjoyable than actually seeing Frank himself back in the day

No doubt

I couldn't help but think about Succession after reading that.

I wonder if there were any clues in Zappa’s lyrics that there might be something amiss

I read a long time ago that Moon said that Gail drew her in closer than ever, by far, toward the end---and when Moon discovered that she (and Dweezil) were left with no control of the trust, she wondered if Gail had felt guilty about that (cynical me wonders if the final closeness was part of a set-up, at least subconsciously, also considering some of Moon's other claims).
So Gail put Diva with Ahmet--maybe, since she was the youngest/most pliable, to protect her from influence o D. and M. (who, for all I know, were/are less mature or whatever than Ahmet)
But now, if it is xpost Dweezil against all, and Moon was left vulnerable in some ways (at least he can always go play a gig), maybe Ahmet's drawn her in---but dunno if I want to read any updates---maybe---

"Of D. and M.," that should be.

glad to see Dweezil make it, sort of - have heard a lot of great things about those shows, tbh from what I've heard they're probably more enjoyable than actually seeing Frank himself back in the day

Is this a credit to Dweezil and the band, or is this more because of whatever shortcomings Frank had onstage? (I'm no expert on his live work, so I really have no idea.)

(no expert on either's live work, never seen Dweezil and haven't heard many of Frank's live recordings)

I had the same question, assumed it was due to downplaying some of the wackiness

most full show recordings I've heard of Frank have a lot of fucking around in between the great bits, shit like long comedy sketches or entirely formless jams, with Dweezil it's pretty much just the good stuff

https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/dweezil-zappa/2024/grand-sierra-theatre-reno-nv-ba9a92e.html

not really an expert on Frank's bands, obviously all his side men and women were very good, but Dweezil's band is super tight as well

okay they do play "Penis Dimension" but maybe they just don't wanna upset the ghost of Frank

I wonder if there are Zappa fans who complain about that? "Why is it all music? Where's the comedy? His dad's shows were funny!"

Must be some

fwiw penis dimension is lovely when shorn of the lyrics. that outro...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnzsS9Tvljk

of all the Zappa fans I know I don't know if there's a single one who actually thinks he's "funny". I think he is but only in a off-the-cuff way. when he's thinking on his feet he can be really clever and quick, when he's actually writing stuff he thinks is funny it's almost always flat. like he has no good comedy ideas. Apostrophe is supposed to be funny but the only line that makes me laugh is "this is the dog talkin now". which I am pretty sure was ad libbed.

When Frankie's in Clown.

I highly highly highly recommend going to see Dweezil's current tour if you get the chance. Especially if you like the 70s Roxy era stuff. His band is incredible and he's playing his ass off.

― kurt schwitterz, Wednesday, 7 August 2024 19:55 (one week ago) link

Roxy and Elsewhere is about where I get off, though I really love that record so I decided fuck it and got a ticket for the gig tonight in St.Paul

report back !!

I just returned from the show. Holy shit. I’ll post more when I gather my thoughts, but this was incredible.

The band was as advertised, absolutely on top of their shit, the biggest drawback with doing this era material is no George Duke and no Chester Thompson and both the drummer(s) and keyboard filled in admirably. The first hour of the set in particular it was a real treat to hear these tunes played without Frank's "Frank-ness". "Inca Roads" was like completely amazing. "Pygmy Twylyte" with interpolations of the Star Wars Cantina Band, the Imperial March & "Space Truckin'" was brilliant. The very spontaneous "Purple Rain" conjured by the band out of thin air (Dweezil didn't know the chords and seemed as surprised as the crowd) lead by a plastic duck call, was exactly the sort of absurd/funny/mind-blowing thing that hardcore fans are always claiming Zappa's music is best at, it was truly one of the greatest thing's I've ever seen, Zorn's got nuthin on Scheila Gonzalez's duck calls.

The detour into "Punky's Whips" a song I just can't stand, both musically & textually, left a bad taste in my mouth and by the time they got around the earlier Mothers material I was starting the miss Frank's "Frank-ness". Just running those songs exactly like in 1973 felt like a real miss opportunity to attempt play these songs with some teeth instead of amping up the wackiness. "More Trouble of Everyday" with "Stayin' Alive" mixed in? Ehh. At that point I really could have used a sarcastic asshole. But just my two cents, obv ymmv.

Dweezil kind of amazingly dials in the tones, even when a lot times he doesn't really play like his dad and the band is great.

I was way up in the nose-bleeds (actually the seats were find the Fitzgerald is a totally awesome venue) in an empty section except, of course for the one old guy who sat right next me, with his Weasels Ripped My Flesh t-shirt and his rundown of of every Zappa & Dweezil show eh'd ever seen. He took his shoes off the second song. Yes he was wearing white gym socks.

.. with brown shoes?

Excellent review, chr1s. I can’t imagine how much rehearsal goes into performing music this complex this tightly. Everyone in the band is a monster. Agreed, the extra-lengthy “Inca Roads” was an absolute stunner.

High points for me were the Roxy material: the “Echidna’s Arf” medley and “Cheepnis” in versions that didn’t even make me miss Ruth Underwood, and all of the spontaneous Prince tomfoolery. Also loved the trips back to “Idiot Bastard’s Son” and the “200 Motels” overture.

Lesser points: yes, “Punky’s Whips” and also what I thought was an unnecessary “Dickie’s Such an Asshole.” Neither are top-drawer FZ in my book, but again ymmv.

Dweezil’s super saturated gnat note shred fests were sometimes heard to discern for me, but he obviously takes his dad’s legacy very seriously (and comically.)

My seat was fabulous, first row of the first balcony. It’s been ages since I’ve attended a theater rock show, and I had been jonesing for one lately. The Fitzgerald and Dweezil were the way to break my drought. Perfect night, most highly recommended to anyone interested.

Ha, yes the "200 motels" overture was really not something I was expecting at all

Dweezil’s super saturated gnat note shred fests

He plays like the child of Eddie Van Halen as much (or more) than Frank Zappa and not a knock at all but he plays so early 80s guitar shred magazine style is kind of hilarious and charming, all my friends (I'm a little younger than Dweezil) of that era it was so baked into their DNA

He took his shoes off the second song. Yes he was wearing white gym socks.

superb. honestly perfect

White gym socks don’t make it

Quit work, why fake it? My motto recently.

(Not that good an idea, in my case.)

Such weird energy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y0HcugxLTA

Who would have expected it?

Can't make myself watch it actually.

That was rough going, but Moon’s book sounds quite interesting. If it’s sort of a Mommie Dearest of rock thing I’m into it.

I mean I’m sure it won’t be that hostile since Moon is spiritual

My take, which is mine, is: Zappa himself was pretty smart, despite using way too much of his brain power on things like "A Critique of Wet T-Shirt Contests" etc so I imagine if Moon inherited any share of that intelligence and instinct to criticize but it is leavened with some spirituality as you say, then this will be an interesting book.

Think this is the kick-off tour I previewed, def remember press sheet roll call incl. Napoleon Murphy BROCK:

The band debuted in 2006 with shows in Europe, Canada, and the United States during May and June (the tour was also known as Zappa Plays Zappa: Tour de Frank'). The shows presented a collection of Frank Zappa's rock-oriented compositions from the 1960s to the late 1970s.[5] Apart from Dweezil Zappa on lead guitar, many of the band members previously played with Frank Zappa. Among those, Napoleon Murphy Brock (sax, flute, and vocals) was an integral part of the band, while drummer/vocalist Terry Bozzio and guitarist Steve Vai performed as guests in parts of the shows. At several shows the live band played along with audio and video recordings of Frank Zappa himself, notably portions of "Chunga's Revenge", "Dumb All Over", "Cosmik Debris", and "Muffin Man".

agreed that the moon/ahmet thing is very strange and hard to watch, though it gets a bit less strained at the end. i think it's mainly to do with the awful brocast format more than anything. you can see her weird laugh is actually a cringe/biting-of-tongue when ahmet goes off on some kind of "attack helicopter" spiel at some point :/

i watched a couple of other interviews however in which she comes across a lot better. i know nothing about her but it seems like there was some LA-woo stuff in her past but seems like it's just of the brené brown, EFT, attachment theory etc. etc. now. which is fair enough given what it seems like she's gone through. i had no idea of extent of the gail stuff (i always assumed that a lot of her reputation was mainly due to weird misogyny from some of the fan base).

brené brown, EFT, attachment theory etc. etc.

Can’t get over Ahmet interrupting Moon’s story to tell his own story of his dog going down on his girlfriend from behind on 9/11/01.

Wow, some apples don't fall far from the tree...

xxp oh they're unrelated, but as in she mentioned all of those things in the interview. they're all just popular therapy-type things at the moment. so it seems like LA-guru-days-in-the-ashram are in a long time in the past - re: "I mean I’m sure it won’t be that hostile since Moon is spiritual"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bren%C3%A9_Brown
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotionally_focused_therapy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory

Thanks, can see how Moon might relate to those. Hope they helped!

oh cool, turns out Dweezil is a right-wing edgelord

https://old.reddit.com/r/Zappa/comments/1f16k57/portland_me_show_82424/

What a surprise.

Those gags were in the show I saw and the Jar-Jar/Kamala in particular was def jarring but in the moment it was hard to parse if was indictive of a right-wing edgelord-isms or merely a topical(?) joke that wasn't very funny or both

that reddit thread makes it clear he's just doing this every night. sounds completely insufferable

Him and his brother have always seemed like dicks tbh.

learned from the best

A surprising turn on John Cale S?D:

Just came across a good JC interview---didn't realize he wrote so much in the studio, and was so into improvising there---this part is striking as well, on VU gigs with the Mothers:

...the only reason Zappa was on those gigs was that Herb Cohen knew that he'd get all this publicity from Andy and us. The thing is about Frank, that was reinforced years after I saw him, is that he had a very acerbic wit, which was kind of enjoyable, but at the same time, I really can't say there was anything about his music or him that made me love music. There was something about him, I think it was a real deep-seeded anger and fury about being forced to learn music in the first place - there was a revenge factor there - but it made me very uncomfortable watching him. There was so much putting down of himself that wasn't pleasant. I lost the gleam of innocence that you get from somebody really enjoying a melody or a solo or anything like that. And he could rip off [play, not pilfer] all these incredible solos, and you knew the guy had tremendous talent, but there was never anything there that made me love music so I'd want to do it. The reason you're doing this is to show how people how exciting and enjoyable this is. It's a shared experience. People shouldn't be punished for sharing an experience.

---from the Oklahoma Daily:
https://www.oudaily.com/interview-with-john-cale/article_ede0d7c9-ebb8-5745-a974-e937d103ad84.html

― dow, Thursday, November 16, 2023 10:35 PM (nine months ago) bookmarkflaglink

Didn’t Zappa famously mock Nico from the side of the stage, pretending to play organ and making pained singing faces?

― Shifty Henry’s Swing Club (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, November 17, 2023 12:00 AM (nine months ago) bookmarkflaglink

Oh worse than that, he went up on stage and actually played her organ and sang some moronic lyrics not much different from his usual output.

― Shifty Henry’s Swing Club (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, November 17, 2023 12:47 AM (nine months ago) bookmarkflaglink

https://www.openculture.com/2017/06/andy-warhol-hosts-frank-zappa-on-his-cable-tv-show.html

― Shifty Henry’s Swing Club (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, November 17, 2023 12:54 AM (nine months ago) bookmarkflaglink

He did play "All Tomorrow's Parties" when the BBC gave him a radio show to play his favourite music. Along with some other surprising choices (the UK Subs!) Zappa that is, not Cale. He was still an asshole though of course.

― The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Friday, November 17, 2023 3:41 AM (nine months ago) bookmarkflaglink

Right, forgot about that. The ATP part that is, not the other part.

― Shifty Henry’s Swing Club (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, November 17, 2023 4:55 AM (nine months ago) bookmarkflaglink

Also that thing I posted brings up something I never thought about, comparing the different flavors of control that FZ and AW bring to the table and what may lie behind each.

― Shifty Henry’s Swing Club (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, November 17, 2023

I meant to say John Cale S/D

Just reread the Warhol link and found this:

But perhaps Zappa just couldn’t tolerate anyone else taking the spotlight, especially a talented female performer. Warhol remembers Zappa’s response to a compliment about his daughter, Moon. “Listen,” he supposedly told Warhol, “I created her. I invented her.… She’s nothing. It’s all me.” In contrast to the “peculiar” reply, Warhol writes “if it were my daughter I would be saying ‘Gee, she’s so smart,’ but he’s taking all the credit.” Zappa may have been a musical genius with a special entrepreneurial flair and incisive critical wit, but the “sexist autocrat… with a scabrous attitude,” as Carlo Wolff describes him, “was not a likeable man.” Certainly the mild-mannered Warhol didn’t think so.