It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back

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ha - this is another 'hey - remember the 80s?' thread

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:31 (twenty-three years ago)

I do seem to recall a Greg Tate piece (reprinted in his book) talking about how Nation trax going over like gangbusters in hip-hop clubs when they were still new, because they were funkier than the first album, so I'm not sure I buy their being "funkless." (I always heard plenty of funk in them myself as well.) Just something that came to mind, not a blanket refutation of Jess's point (different ears hear differently). (BTW, what is your favorite hip-hop album, Jess? Mine's either Nation or Mama Said Knock You Out, I think.)

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:31 (twenty-three years ago)

What was it about a) their particular strand of Black Nationalism that fell out of favor and b) the idea of making in your face uncompromising radical music (whether they did or not isn't the question) that virtually no subsequent black hip hop act has even tried to follow in those footsteps?

Because people, musicians, especially hip-hop musicians, want to BE THEMSELVES.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:34 (twenty-three years ago)

they weren't nearly as highly beheld as Rakim. Remember Kool Moe Dee's grade sheet?

Yeah, well I recall that was for MC's--PE's rating as a total package has to be higher cause there was no love for Eric B.'s turntable skills back in those days (and probaly even less since!)

― arch Ibog (arch Ibog), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:35 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah nation... def has that "we've got nothing to lose" feeling that makes a "masterpiece", whereas fear... has the "we're on top of the world" feeling ("incident at 66.6", the first few songs on the second side - hah, i'm dating myself - "fight the power" even) which can also make a masterpiece (people like to feel as if they are being taken under the wing of something bigger than themselves as much as they like to identify) but which is much harder to navigate.

i dunno really know what my favorite is. in a pinch it'd be fear..., but it might actually be illmatic or 36 chambers.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:36 (twenty-three years ago)

The Source has been mentioning PE lately like crazy for what it's worth (Harry Allen no doubt, but still...)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:40 (twenty-three years ago)

ha - 'when is Rakim gonna drop Eric B?' was the eternal question back then!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:42 (twenty-three years ago)

hah...if only the british had been paying attention!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:44 (twenty-three years ago)

Flavor Flav was awful.

― Ben Williams, Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:48 (twenty-three years ago)

b-b-but's he's got the third best song on Fear!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:49 (twenty-three years ago)

I think Nation is stronger overall but I totally understand why people like Fear better--it's broader, more of a tour-de-force, takes more chances, risks more, more kaleidoscopic (near psychedelic almost at times). see also: Stankonia vs. Aquemini. there's also a matter w/Fear of it being easier to let seep into your everyday life in some ways--Nation pretty much demands all of your attention at all times in order for it to work totally, while Fear has parts you can sort of let slide by and then go back to or whatever, it's more of an everyday album, and I think its kaleidoscopicness helps in that regard, more moods help make it more user-friendly as opposed to white-heat concentration. this has more to do with the way those records work for me personally (and I imagine others by extension) than w/its "place in the culture" or whatever at the time of release. the quote I recall from the Pazz & Jop when Nation won in '88 was (quoted freely) "nobody bought the tape, or turned it on, it was just always on," and I think that's helped work against it in the long run: it's an album so culturally oversaturated during its peak that in some ways you never need hear it again (i.e. James's Sgt. Pepper point)

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:50 (twenty-three years ago)

I still like Flavor Flav but he's probably aged less well than anything on those records

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:50 (twenty-three years ago)

c'mon man - "Cold Lampin"! "COLD LAMPIN"!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:52 (twenty-three years ago)

I agree w/all you said M. (except Stankonia v Aquemini perhaps)

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:53 (twenty-three years ago)

...when he's egging Chuck on. by himself he's pretty great

oops, what do you disagree with? I'm curious.

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:54 (twenty-three years ago)

(sorry about that hedge, I sort of realized it right after I wrote what I did and then Blount convinced me)

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:55 (twenty-three years ago)

Not funny at all. Whiny voice. Never shuts up. Stupid catchphrases. I understand the need for a counterpoint to Chuck D, but I think I would listen to those records much more if it wasn't for Flav.

― Ben Williams, Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:55 (twenty-three years ago)

is "cold lampin" the "being for the benefit of mr. kite" of nation?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:55 (twenty-three years ago)

the facetious part of me wants to say it's the "She's Leaving Home"

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:56 (twenty-three years ago)

Some hip-hop traditions that weren't traditions before Public Enemy:

*the one-MC-with-a-lot-to-say/another-hype-guy-rowdy-MC dynamic
*among the first to use disonance and harsh overtones in their beats
*"conspiracy theory" obsessed lyrics

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:57 (twenty-three years ago)

heh - the oldies station in Atlanta got bought out and became a hip-hop station - Atlanta's third, fourth if you count the top 40 station, which plays 80% hip-hop (in five years there'll be like two stations in Atlanta that aren't country or hip-hop ie. Atlanta'll be heaven). Anyhow, one thing that distinguishes them from the others is that they'll mix in hip-hop oldies - LOTS of PE.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:57 (twenty-three years ago)

James, how does it sound mixed w/the other stuff? does it stand out or fit in or a little of both or what?

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:59 (twenty-three years ago)

I think the real headfuck really was Fear of a Black Planet, and thinking of that, I think this thread gets it.
I Takes a Nation of Millions... == Licenced to Ill
Fear of a Black Planet == Paul's Boutique

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:01 (twenty-three years ago)

Hey, I was wondering (after thinking back to when Professor Griff made his anti-semetic comments back in the day) if anyone wondered if their followup to ITaNoM2HUB was going to have to be called:
"It Takes a Nation of Islam to Hold us Back"
Ho ho ho.
(*ducks...runs away*)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:04 (twenty-three years ago)

M, I think it's just that I prefer Fear over Nation and Aquemini over Stankonia, ie I'm not really saying that you weren't right for making the comparison. However, my initial reaction was that Aquemini vs ATLiens should have been the comparison, but I can't really back that up other than the fact that there was a similar sonic leap from ATLiens to Aquemini as from Nation to Fear. I'd compare Stankonia w/Apocalypse (both are their fourth album so I must be right!)(Stankonia's better though, comparatively)

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:04 (twenty-three years ago)

I'd say a little of both - they tend to focus on strictly eighties PE I guess - I've never heard anything after "Terrordome" for instance, but "Don't Believe the Hype" into "Wanksta" wasn't too jarring, actually come to think of it the only thing off of Bum Rush I've heard was "You're Gonna Get Yours" (once), so really when I say they play PE I mean they play Nations 95% of the time. De La slides in alot more smoothly, any Miami bass stuff more smoothly still (it is Atlanta ie. bounce is the order of the day). I'll have to listen more and it occurs to me that just now becoming a hip-hop station means music library ain't fully grown just yet ie. hip-hop oldies may be temporary, but I don't know.

oops fairly OTM there. Stankonia is Outkast's 'on top of the world' album though.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:13 (twenty-three years ago)

I still prefer Nation over Fear, but I'm not sure if that's due to the fact that I bought Nation went it came out, it was my first hip-hop record, and I love it more for nostalgic reasons.

The "funny" thing about Professor Griff is that his solo album was produced by a white friend of mine.

― hstencil, Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:27 (twenty-three years ago)

it wasn't an exact comparison--I like Stankonia and Nation more myself--but I think it holds water. point taken, though

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:33 (twenty-three years ago)

The most enduring element of PE in hip hop is that of Flavor Flav's comic jester figure

Has anyone responded to this claim from the original post yet? I'm not sure I agree...supporting evidence?

― arch Ibog (arch Ibog), Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Ol' Dirty

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:42 (twenty-three years ago)

ja rule.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:48 (twenty-three years ago)

jess, where's your Mase photo?

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:50 (twenty-three years ago)

http://members.aol.com/dubplatestyle/mase.jpg

― ask and ye etc (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:52 (twenty-three years ago)

Humpty Hump
Ludacris(?)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:54 (twenty-three years ago)

jess, where's your Mase photo?

I was thinking of *intentionally* comic jester figures...

― arch Ibog (arch Ibog), Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:18 (twenty-three years ago)

...but point taken in any case.

― arch Ibog (arch Ibog), Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:19 (twenty-three years ago)

MA$E dancing in videos = flav's clock pendants?

― arch Ibog (arch Ibog), Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Listen to Fear of a Black Planet and then Satyricon by Meat Beat Manifesto.

― disco stu (disco stu), Friday, 11 April 2003 01:06 (twenty-three years ago)

or closer to the mark, listen to MBM's 'Storm the Studio', which came out the year before 'Planet' (though Jack Dangers certainly credited Bomb Squad & 'Nation of Millions' as an influence, they are contemporaries). If you like the wall of noise on 'Black Planet', 'Storm the Studio' is one of the only records out there aiming for a similar level of cut-up atonal density... ('satyricon's got good stuff too)

― milton, Friday, 11 April 2003 19:13 (twenty-three years ago)

Sterling's musicography reminds me of the line from the first album:

For those who lack
The odds are stacked
The one who makes the money is white not black
You might not believe it but it is like that

The first thing you noticed about the song was that no one had ever said things like that in a rap. The second thing was how instantly addictive the phrasing was. The first three lines could be Run-DMC or the Beasties. The fourth line is pure jazz.

It's that combo that makes Chuck swings so hard--much harder than the "great MCs" in my opinion. My first reaction to Nation was that it was too noisy to hear the drums. But then I realized Chuck was the drum.

In fact, I think the fall-off on Black Planet isn't the Bomb Squad but Chuck. Even on the last classic single, the remix of "Brothers Gonna Work It Out," he kinda sounds like he's catching up with the sonics rather than dominating them. "Refuse to lose" is the great exception. I knew a guy who went around repeating that opening over and over again...

― Pete Scholtes, Friday, 11 April 2003 20:34 (twenty-three years ago)

Musicology, sorry...

― Pete Scholtes, Friday, 11 April 2003 20:36 (twenty-three years ago)

eleven months pass...

There is an amazing interview with Chuck D and Hank Shocklee in the latest issue of Stay Free about their sampling method and why they gave it up. It's the first interview I've ever seen where they bring any of this shit up, and I can't believe this interview hasn't made more waves.

Anyone have a copy of this in electronic form?

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 25 March 2004 00:54 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.stayfreemagazine.org/archives/index.html

issue 20 not yet online, but I thoroughly recommend buying a copy. even if just for this article, there are so few shocklee/chuck interviews where they talk about their work method anyway

stay free is amazing

― (Jon L), Thursday, 25 March 2004 01:09 (twenty-two years ago)

That site says issue 20 is sold out, too :-(

Anyone got a scanner?

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 25 March 2004 01:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I am very curious to see this article as well - I've NEVER heard them talk about this anywhere. With Chuck, interviews are always his socio-political rants and nothin but...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 25 March 2004 01:19 (twenty-two years ago)

jeez, likewise i have never even seen a picture of shocklee much less heard him talk about how he got his sound

― hector (hector), Thursday, 25 March 2004 01:53 (twenty-two years ago)

this really was a good thread

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 25 March 2004 01:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm pretty sure at least one of the Shocklee's is in the PE Behind the Music.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 25 March 2004 01:54 (twenty-two years ago)

speaking of Shocklee I wish someone'd put the dialogue he did with Paul Simon in Spin c. 1990 on the net somewhere

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 25 March 2004 01:55 (twenty-two years ago)

oooh never saw PE BTM--how is it? (same as the rest, probably, but still--PE!)

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 25 March 2004 01:55 (twenty-two years ago)

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