Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

And side two of Roxy and Elsewhere.

The awfulness of Thing-fish is only fully appreciated on physical media, because the booklet with all the pictures, stage directions etc. is a big part of it.

i mean it's not actually interestingly bad. there are a lot of albums that are bad in interesting ways and this is, like. about as interesting as "summer in paradise".

― Kate (rushomancy), Monday, April 1, 2024 10:34 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

yeah I'm finding this out now. always assumed this album would at least be somewhat entertaining or subversive or even "so bad it's good" in a way but it's not any of those things. it just sounds like really bad satire. it's like the worst episodes of South Park but four times as long. most of it comes off like it was written by an 11-year old. like its hard to believe that this was written by someone who's actually had sex before.

theres only one level on which this could work, if it was a deliberately awful album designed specifically to get out of a record contract. there are a few examples of that happening and you can't really hold them against the artist, it's just business. I mean with nearly all the music being shitty retreads of past work that's always what I assumed this was! But it's not...Zappa wanted people to hear this!

The storyline was enough to make me steer clear. I’ve never heard it.

I might be interested in an interview with Ike Willis talking about the album. But I still wouldn't be interested in listening to it.

I know two of my Mom's friends, women in their seventies and eighties, who like Zappa. One was a flower child, the other an eighth grade teacher, both seemed to like the satire in a Lenny Bruce/Marx Brothers anarchy sort of way that maybe doesn't resonate later on because so many subsequent rock artists have eclipsed it. Maybe knowing Zappa as part of the pop landscape rather than a cult artist changes something. There was an era when he was much more a character in the pop landscape with a couple of different approaches going on, like a Clapton of Neil Young.

now I've nearly gotten to the end of this thing I'm thinking Zappa wasn't just dismissive and hateful towards women, he might've been actively terrified of them as well. as though one of them really let him have it over some transgression a long time ago and its just something he never forgot.

Never planning to listen to this, I suspect the skeleton key to the meaning of the record is when you realize Thing-Fish is a pun on "Kingfish".

the gender (and racial) politics of robert crumb with none of the self loathing

omg

the gender (and racial) politics of robert crumb with none of the self loathing

― your original display name is still visible (Left)

imagine being frank zappa and not hating yourself

I think he was riven by insecurity if not self-loathing.

Ya think? Endlessly lashing out humorlessly at simplistic targets and acting like everyone else is stupid. Hmm.

Sorry, wrong thread.

https://media.tenor.com/1jI6hMtarW4AAAAM/marvel-is-it-though.gif

Ha, not really, but it might have been.

a thing people in this thread are not grasping (understandably) is that zappa shows were really really fun and a "happening" and seeing those bands play that complex music live were really cool to see. i think that's where he got a lotttt of his fans and your moms friends who are hold hippies.

* like your mom's old hippie friends.

(i kno cuz my parents and their friends talk about going to see him a lot and how OUTRAGEOUS it was but own 0-just a few of his records)

I saw him on what turned out to be his final tour in 1988 and yeah, it was a good show. He had a twelve-piece band that included a five-piece horn section; the thing that stuck out the most at the time was their cover of "Stairway to Heaven," on which the horn section played the original guitar solo, as a lead-in to Zappa's solo.

I only had the Broadway the Hard Way CD but parts of that performance are amazing. could be his best ever live band.

I had never listened to it before just now. All the dated political references get a bit wearing, but at least they outnumber the misogynistic ones, I guess. Band is super tight, but I don’t think I’ll be relistening.

Try Make A Jazz Noise Here. Same band but almost entirely instrumental.

That one I have heard. It’s good in places, I like him revisiting some oldies, but then there’s a lengthy track of endless sampled snork noises.

I think every double disc album he released could be trimmed 50%, except Uncle Meat.

What would I get out of this that I wouldn’t get out of listening to an actual jazz band. Or going to see some classical thing, the symphony, the opera etc.

Probably already asked this one before, rhetorical question, don’t really want to know the answer that much, pvmic etc.

What would I get out of this that I wouldn’t get out of listening to an actual jazz band. Or going to see some classical thing, the symphony, the opera etc.

Party atmosphere, rock and roll gymnastics, cultural commentary and audience participation.

Oh wow, thanks!

I hate all that stuff, so I think I'll pass, thanks

Well, not quite, but mostly

No, I think you were right the first time.

🥸

yeah go listen to an actual jazz band tbh

zappa is dead _and_ he smells funny

What would I get out of this that I wouldn’t get out of listening to an actual jazz band.

you'd get something you won't get from, say, a bop combo, but George Duke's solo records of the 70s deliver basically all the same thrills you can get from Zappa stuff with only a fraction of the DO NOT WANT factor. however it should also be remembered that late in his life he released this, that this album's title and cover were a choice he made.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a0/George_Duke-Dukey_Treats.jpg

Stockholm Syndrome!

Lol!

Try Make A Jazz Noise Here. Same band but almost entirely instrumental.

― Tahuti Watches L&O:SVU Reruns Without His Ape (unperson), Tuesday, April 2, 2024 2:14 PM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

IMO I think this is the best thing he released from the best tour he did. Incredibly jealous you saw them on that tour, unperson.

As a hater, I guess I might say the same

Virtuosi on recordings sometimes ill-used but live is a different story

The other '88 tour albums (Bway the Hard Way and Best Band You've Never Heard) are filled w/ gorgeous stuff, too, but there's still a lot of Zappa schtick to wade through. Make a Jazz Noise has always struck me as his his most straight-faced (aside from all orchestral stuff) – minimal silly stuff, minimal caustic songs, just a really, really tight band doing a lot of Zappa's best live material.

There's a 5LP or 3CD box set of the Mothers live at the Whisky in 1968 coming out in June, but what's interesting about that is this, from the press release:

All vinyl was cut from hi-res digital file by Chris Bellman at Bernie Grundman Mastering in 2023 and is being pressed at Optimal: Media in Germany on BioVinyl, a new environment-friendly formulation and sustainable product made from bio-based PVC (polyvinyl chloride). The petroleum previously required for PVC production is replaced by recycling used cooking oil or industrial waste gases. Through the use of renewable energies and recycled raw materials, CO2 emissions are significantly reduced. More information about BioVinyl available here: https://www.optimal-media.com/en/news/biovinyl/

This is the first I've heard of this process. Anybody know more?

Huh. Interesting indeed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiIRdGe5FXk

honestly the thing that interested me most was finding out that the '69 show where roland kirk sat in with the mothers is circulating now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2fnuY178S0

xpost nice to see the GTOs fooling around!

Moon Unit Zappa has written an autobiography, and it sounds like neither parent comes off particularly well, but Gail may get the brunt of it.

As creativity chafed against domesticity, her father, “a pagan absurdist”, was mostly absent. Those times he was at home, Moon did whatever she could to earn his attention. When he laughed at her mimicry of 1980s California teen speak, he got her into the studio to record Valley Girl, a novelty song that surprised him by becoming, in 1982, his only global hit, and by making his daughter, aged 14, a star. This rankled. From here, she became an actor, mixing with Molly Ringwald and Tom Cruise, but rarely felt comfortable in her skin. “Everyone says I look just like Dad. My dad is always saying he’s ugly. I guess that means I am ugly, too.” She bailed out of acting and into ashrams instead, returning home “wearing a Bindi, smiling vacantly and smelling of wet hairy armpit”.

The more errant Frank’s behaviour, the angrier her mother grew. This she took out on Moon, who remained utterly devoted to him regardless. Later in life, when he was ill with cancer, she writes: “I would trade my life for his.”

Gail was discomfited by the adoration. Her daughter annoyed her. The book’s title is a reference to how her mother would mock her for daydreaming, and relations did not improve when Moon grew up. Later, Gail would execute her husband’s will in a way that would drive a wedge between the children that survives to this day.

...

By adulthood, she’s had thousands of hours of therapy in elusive pursuit of calm (“make peace with what hurts and move towards joy”, she implores at one point), and emerges from this mess as kind, reasonable and remarkably sane. This is tested, though, when Gail tells her that “we need to sell your house. You cost us $200,000 to raise you, and we have to pay for your father’s cancer treatment.” After he dies, Gail’s reaction is “quiet glee”. Years later, when Moon’s daughter undergoes a medical emergency and Moon summons her mother to the hospital for support, Gail is too busy at a birthday party.

So sad. Was thinking of the sibs' feud lately and found a piece from 2018, think it was, headlining their reconciliation (didn't read), and this year Dweezil announced aenjoye Frank tribute tour, not titled The Cease And Desist Tour like a previous march, so hope that means the detente is still on.
Nowadays I like FZ's instrumentals best, but in the beginning enjoyed his all-around showmanship: on Freak Out! With The Mothers of Invention (high school me dug San Francisco sunshine trips, but also El Lay smog snark). Also the well-laced variety (everything from comments by Suzy Creamcheese and Ian Underwood) to yowling jazz, whatever that was, slabs of "King Kong," and "Louie Louie," one of the live cuts, as performed by "The London Philharmonic Orchestra" (not)
Wiki gives good coverage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Meat (also the movie, finished many years later,in 1987, is still on YouTube I think)
Also was glad to hear the albs involving Beefheart, mainly because I'm more of a Beefheart fan, but good Frank gateway is the Ryko comp We're Only In It For The Money

Looks like title was actually just Freak Out!----with one song that was both serious and good, "Trouble Everyday, " sometimes listed as "Trouble Coming Everyday," written while watching TV coverage of the Watts riots: "I'm not black, but sometimes I wish I wasn't white either," and seems like he doesn't know or what to trust. wiki:

Originally dubbed "The Watts Riot Song",[4] its primary lyrical themes are racial violence, social injustice, and sensationalist journalism.[5] The musical style—featuring multiple guitar tracks and a harmonica—much more closely resembles blues than mainstream rock and roll.[6]

Producer Tom Wilson of MGM Records signed the Mothers to a record deal on March 1, 1966, having heard only this song and believing them to be a "white blues band".[7] Together, they released "Trouble Every Day" as a single with A-side "Who Are the Brain Police?"[8]

A re-arranged version appeared on the Mothers' 1974 live album Roxy & Elsewhere (and on the 1991 live album The Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life) as "More Trouble Every Day".[9] These subsequent versions were more up-tempo and usually featured a strong horn intro and punctuation.
Covers

The UK underground artist Mick Farren covered the song on his album Vampires Stole My Lunch Money (1978); a live version featuring Farren on vocals and Wayne Kramer on guitar, appears on the 1984 album Human Garbage by The Deviants. Australian stoner rock band Tumbleweed covered the song as a B-side on their 1993 single "Daddy Long Legs".[10] George Thorogood and the Destroyers included a cover of the song on their 1997 album Rockin' My Life Away.

Louisa Roach of the British band She Drew The Gun rewrote some of the lyrics to reflect recent riots and demonstrations in the UK. The rewrite received the blessing of the Frank Zappa estate and the record was released in August 2019.[11]

The Specials covered the song on their 2021 album Protest Songs 1924-2012.

Would read!