pitchfork is dumb (#34985859340293849494 in a series.)

Agree with some of the other folks in their mid-40s. Growing up, I liked the R.E.M. songs I heard on the radio, and they seemed to be good dudes (Stipe's politics, for instance). But their style wasn't one I naturally gravitated toward. The only album of theirs I owned was Monster, actually, bc fuzzy glam rock was more interesting to me than strummy mandolin ballads. And by the time that came out, I was beconing eager to get into more indie stuff, like Pavement and Sonic Youth, both of whom I found very exciting.

But I never cared much about the Replacements or Husker Du or GBV, all of whom seemed like more straightforward three-chord rock (even if it was distorted and had weird lyrics or whatever). R.E.M. seemed to have more range over their career, but a lot of their early classic stuff seemed similarly limited to me.

I think if anything all of those bands (the four you just mentioned) were interesting/compelling for what they did within the realm of or in service of subverting "straightforward three-chord rock." REM and Replacements were both huge Big Star fans, and neither sound at all like Big Star (or each other). Replacements and GBV were both huge fans of uncool classic rock, but neither sounds at all like the other (though early GBV sometimes sounds a bit like REM!). Husker Du and REM both covered a lot of '60s stuff - Byrds, AM bubblegum - but don't have much in common sonically. Etc.

Pavement (who of course emerged well after all those other acts) imo leans the least into some of the more obvious stuff. The Fall is one of more common comparisons, though I think Sonic Youth must have been some sort of touchstone as well, based on the bonkers guitar tunings. If anything Pavement remind me a little of Camper Van Beethoven, in some ways, CVB themselves being a deliberately eccentric hodgepodge of lots of the aforementioned - '60s pop, Sonic Youth, fun/silly garage rock indulgence, arch/sarcastic/droll lyrics ...

fwiw tho i was responding more to the characterization of the band in a previous post as explanatory of their sound/appeal.

I wasn’t explaining their sound/appeal, just pushing back on yr claim that their fans are sensitive Elliott Smith types or something. If you’re gonna dislike a band for its fans(??), at least nail it…

It's funny, Pavement never read to me as fratty or even frat-adjacent. And to my ears, their sound embodies the foolish attempt to conceal Big Feelings with archness and silliness and nonsense. Very compelling stuff for a certain kind of lonely, bookish teenager. GBV did/does the same thing, IMO, with a slightly different set of aesthetic signifiers, and I loved them, too.

TS: the art rock of the university vs the art rock of the trade school

they're famous for having 3 or 4 classic albums

― flopson, Monday, November 13, 2023

they're all kinda inconsistent

― ufo, Monday, November 13, 2023

CRCR is inconsistent, in that side 2 isn't very strong... but it's still classic IMO (does "classic" mean perfect? honest question). OTOH, S&E & WZ are as close to "perfect" as any other great albums I can think of, give or take a Spiral Stairs song or two.

(it probably helps if you're a fan, though, of course!)

Classic /= perfect. I'd even argue that a certain level of imperfection/inconsistency can elevate a work's classicness

frat dudes were definitely not into stuff like Slanted and Enchanted back in 92/93. That was prime RHCP era.

In my formulation though, they’re not literally frat guys… a little too arty/offbeat for that. But they’re not sitting around writing in their journals like Young Werther or somebody.

No, but Malkmus was sitting around reading Ashbery.

He put a spycam in a sorority iirc

xp He was probably listening to Ian Astbury

doubtful

Pavement (who of course emerged well after all those other acts) imo leans the least into some of the more obvious stuff. The Fall is one of more common comparisons, though I think Sonic Youth must have been some sort of touchstone as well, based on the bonkers guitar tunings. If anything Pavement remind me a little of Camper Van Beethoven, in some ways, CVB themselves being a deliberately eccentric hodgepodge of lots of the aforementioned - '60s pop, Sonic Youth, fun/silly garage rock indulgence, arch/sarcastic/droll lyrics ...

how do you feel about can?

can is a candidate for one of the best bands ever - despite some similarities their music seems to reflect a very different (post-60s collectivist) ethos than the fall whose genre and lineup seemed to be entirely determined by the whims of one capricious dickhead's ego - neither of can's singers ever sacrificed the groove for the sake of their rants

(I have no idea of can's internal politics I'm just going by the sound)

how do you feel about can?

― is he disgruntled adrian? (voodoo chili), Tuesday, November 14, 2023 12:50 PM (fifteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YkQie47k3ZQ/VTU1EUvwJBI/AAAAAAAAYxc/GufaOMLKGek/s1600/Homer%2BBadman%2B-%2BGrabbing%2BVenus.JPG

Two useless data points re: age.

My partner is 32 and is a rabid R.E.M. fan--saw them live, has Tourfilm on VHS and various books, even has one or two Peter Buck solo records signed by him. She got into them as a teen via a general interest in college rock/post-punk. I think her father had a few records, s

I'm a few years older and dig them too, but that's a recent development thanks to her influence. I was a casual fan in college, had the IRS/Warner hits CD and Murmur. Didn't really get into them until her influence, when I sat down and went through their discography.

the fall whose genre and lineup seemed to be entirely determined by the whims of one capricious dickhead's ego

point of order: lineup yes. genre? once the musicians were assembled they had quite a lot of freedom (so long as what they did was to the chairman's liking)

i like Can

also I'm not sure why but REM have always bored me to tears, while Scott Miller is one of my favourite songwriters - I mostly put this down to melodic sensibilities, sonic choices, compositional foci

There is no greater gulf between “their best stuff” and “their worst stuff” than there is with Can.

MES more miles than james brown then?

unfortunately the thing that makes it the fall is also the most obnoxious part of the band. a bit like dave matthews xps

I don't know any of can's worst stuff, I've never heard anything past the mid 70s so it's all good afaic. is it worse than those post morrison doors albums?

"worst" can is really not that bad

We would have achieved the hipster singularity had Pavement ever covered "I am Damo Suzuki."

Btw – and I know we're getting way off-topic here – I was startled to see Stipe criticize (then-)President GHW Bush on the grounds that (among other things) he had "never uttered the words 'greenhouse effect'". I did not recall the "greenhouse effect" already being so front-and-center back then.

In 1990, the Labor government set a target to reduce carbon emissions to 20% below 1988 levels by 2005.

In 2022, the Labor government set a target to reduce carbon emissions to 7% below 2022 levels by 2031.

if anything i really remember "greenhouse effect" being one of the most common terms back in the Reagan/Bush era and it seems to be used much less now.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4777288/user-clip-george-bush-1988-environmental-policy-speech-1988

We would have achieved the hipster singularity had Pavement ever covered "I am Damo Suzuki."

― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, November 14, 2023 1:51 PM (thirty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

they did basically cover "sing swan song" in the back half of "stop breathin"

1987

https://content.time.com/time/magazine/archive/covers/1987/1101871019_400.jpg

going through old time magazine covers is a trip, btw

I used to it on my lunch break at the uni library.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/46/72/61/4672619fb0e9f48d7122ea19e4d59036.jpg

greenhouse effect and acid rain for all

I like pavement fine, but one thing I've never totally understood was the comparison of Pavement to the Fall. I like, don't hear the influence one bit.

our singer hip priest

i mean, "new face in hell" and "conduit for sale" are very similar. that's one bit. but the "they're just fall rip-offs" tag for pavement is overstated probably. they were ripping off a lot of different bands! like everyone does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpwhcn9R-PQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DXBR3oxlr0

if anything i really remember "greenhouse effect" being one of the most common terms back in the Reagan/Bush era and it seems to be used much less now.

Yeah to be clear, I remember the term being used, just not the level of public concern already being at the point of politicians being called to take action, Time magazine covers, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6emjzA8uKGo

"hit the plane down" is very mark. e smith, too. oh and "two states" sounds like a 'this nation's saving grace' outtake

I can't believe I find myself agreeing with table on something but they're otm re: The Fall. Even if they're wrong about almost everything else.

I'm not sure where this whole frat boy thing is coming from but the jocks at my school were definitely not listening to Pavement. Maybe The Prodigy or Metallica or something I found utterly mindless at the time (and still do).

Well they're not exactly jocks either (the band or the most fans, I guess), although a few of the Pavement guys clearly have an interest in sports (which shows up in the lyrics sometimes).

i like that this thread could be taking place in 1995

I'm fascinated by all this deep american high school politics that I assumed was mostly made up by hollywood

my friends, the Fall are the greatest British band of the last 45 years

xxp And not to push the line of inquiry too far (b/c I was more just disputing the "sensitive guy" thing, which didn't seem to fit at all) – but I do thing there's something there w/r/t both R.E.M. and Pavement in relation to "social scenes." In high school, I had my core group of friends, and was friendly with everyone – but I was a little too normie to be super-tight with the arty/alternative/goth kids; a little too offbeat for the preppie kids; too mainstream for the nerdy crowd, but too nerdy for the we-rule-the-school types.... etc. And being a big R.E.M. kind of seemed very "in the pocket" for that sort of in-between-crowds situation. Not that I sought out the band for any reason other than their music, but somehow the band's vibe sort of aligned with my social positioning in away... (and I guess that sort of extends to Pavement and college, although social cliques weren't so much in effect there).

I'm not sure where this whole frat boy thing is coming from but the jocks at my school were definitely not listening to Pavement. Maybe The Prodigy or Metallica or something I found utterly mindless at the time (and still do).

― The Ghost Club, Tuesday, November 14, 2023 3:59 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

they were listening to those elegant bachelors, stone temple pilots