pitchfork is dumb (#34985859340293849494 in a series.)

my feeling on pavement is, they're fine

Pretty much. GBV are a blast, though.

REM just seemed like a world apart from everything else that was happening in the post-punk underground in the '80s.

This is where context matters a little. Back when REM was starting up, iirc you couldn't even easily buy Velvet Underground or Big Star albums. They were pretty much out of print, relatively obscure totems/touchstones, the stuff of record store geeks. The same for a lot more of their more conventional influences, like the Byrds or whatever, or a lot of garage rock. Of course REM wasn't the only band mining this stuff, but due to timing alone, their touchstones were pretty out of phase with the mainstream. The same, for different reasons, with a band like the Replacements or even Uncle Tupelo (both of whom have Peter Buck connections). You listen now and think, what's so weird/different/innovative about this? And that's partly because those bands or sorts of bands served as introductions for all the stuff that influenced them that have since influenced hundreds of other bands.

It's not REM, but I've heard that in the late '70s, even acts like Tom Petty or Dire Straits, no one knew what to do with them at first. Iirc Dire Straits opened for the Talking Heads on one of the latter's first tours of England. Even a lot of what now sounds totally familiar or stale or mainstream sometimes once made people scratch their heads.

well put. Dead Letter Office & the songs REM covered (Wire, Television, VU, Mission of Burma) were like having an older brother saying "Check this out." Don't think they ever covered Big Star, but Buck talked about them enough in interviews, and yeah you couldn't hear that shit anywhere

Josh otm. Also not to be discounted: R.E.M. were exceptionally well-positioned to exploit growing major label interest in "college rock." Unlike their contemporaries they didn't mind spending hours and days courting deejays, Rolling Stone freelancers, and college newspaper reporters; they spent the '80s building a good will that sustained them well into the next decade.

I think I was born a little too late. By the time I was aware of R.E.M., they seemed very mainstream, and (apart from the music) the vibe they projected was very diffident and eye-rolly to me. So on that level they may have been U2 (who, musically, were never interesting to me).

Pavement felt messier, wilder, more in line with punk and disruption, and I was too young to understand what “fratty” signified. By the time I did get what that meant I was too into them for it to matter.

As for GBV, they were a lot of fun in the 1990s and slightly beyond, then they kept going, and going, and -

Born too late, or got into underground adjacent music too late.

(I was also a massive Nirvana fan in the moment - make of that what you will.)

Agree with some of the other folks in their mid-40s. Growing up, I liked the R.E.M. songs I heard on the radio, and they seemed to be good dudes (Stipe's politics, for instance). But their style wasn't one I naturally gravitated toward. The only album of theirs I owned was Monster, actually, bc fuzzy glam rock was more interesting to me than strummy mandolin ballads. And by the time that came out, I was beconing eager to get into more indie stuff, like Pavement and Sonic Youth, both of whom I found very exciting.

But I never cared much about the Replacements or Husker Du or GBV, all of whom seemed like more straightforward three-chord rock (even if it was distorted and had weird lyrics or whatever). R.E.M. seemed to have more range over their career, but a lot of their early classic stuff seemed similarly limited to me.

I think if anything all of those bands (the four you just mentioned) were interesting/compelling for what they did within the realm of or in service of subverting "straightforward three-chord rock." REM and Replacements were both huge Big Star fans, and neither sound at all like Big Star (or each other). Replacements and GBV were both huge fans of uncool classic rock, but neither sounds at all like the other (though early GBV sometimes sounds a bit like REM!). Husker Du and REM both covered a lot of '60s stuff - Byrds, AM bubblegum - but don't have much in common sonically. Etc.

Pavement (who of course emerged well after all those other acts) imo leans the least into some of the more obvious stuff. The Fall is one of more common comparisons, though I think Sonic Youth must have been some sort of touchstone as well, based on the bonkers guitar tunings. If anything Pavement remind me a little of Camper Van Beethoven, in some ways, CVB themselves being a deliberately eccentric hodgepodge of lots of the aforementioned - '60s pop, Sonic Youth, fun/silly garage rock indulgence, arch/sarcastic/droll lyrics ...

fwiw tho i was responding more to the characterization of the band in a previous post as explanatory of their sound/appeal.

I wasn’t explaining their sound/appeal, just pushing back on yr claim that their fans are sensitive Elliott Smith types or something. If you’re gonna dislike a band for its fans(??), at least nail it…

It's funny, Pavement never read to me as fratty or even frat-adjacent. And to my ears, their sound embodies the foolish attempt to conceal Big Feelings with archness and silliness and nonsense. Very compelling stuff for a certain kind of lonely, bookish teenager. GBV did/does the same thing, IMO, with a slightly different set of aesthetic signifiers, and I loved them, too.

TS: the art rock of the university vs the art rock of the trade school

they're famous for having 3 or 4 classic albums

― flopson, Monday, November 13, 2023

they're all kinda inconsistent

― ufo, Monday, November 13, 2023

CRCR is inconsistent, in that side 2 isn't very strong... but it's still classic IMO (does "classic" mean perfect? honest question). OTOH, S&E & WZ are as close to "perfect" as any other great albums I can think of, give or take a Spiral Stairs song or two.

(it probably helps if you're a fan, though, of course!)

Classic /= perfect. I'd even argue that a certain level of imperfection/inconsistency can elevate a work's classicness

frat dudes were definitely not into stuff like Slanted and Enchanted back in 92/93. That was prime RHCP era.

In my formulation though, they’re not literally frat guys… a little too arty/offbeat for that. But they’re not sitting around writing in their journals like Young Werther or somebody.

No, but Malkmus was sitting around reading Ashbery.

He put a spycam in a sorority iirc

xp He was probably listening to Ian Astbury

doubtful

Pavement (who of course emerged well after all those other acts) imo leans the least into some of the more obvious stuff. The Fall is one of more common comparisons, though I think Sonic Youth must have been some sort of touchstone as well, based on the bonkers guitar tunings. If anything Pavement remind me a little of Camper Van Beethoven, in some ways, CVB themselves being a deliberately eccentric hodgepodge of lots of the aforementioned - '60s pop, Sonic Youth, fun/silly garage rock indulgence, arch/sarcastic/droll lyrics ...

how do you feel about can?

can is a candidate for one of the best bands ever - despite some similarities their music seems to reflect a very different (post-60s collectivist) ethos than the fall whose genre and lineup seemed to be entirely determined by the whims of one capricious dickhead's ego - neither of can's singers ever sacrificed the groove for the sake of their rants

(I have no idea of can's internal politics I'm just going by the sound)

how do you feel about can?

― is he disgruntled adrian? (voodoo chili), Tuesday, November 14, 2023 12:50 PM (fifteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YkQie47k3ZQ/VTU1EUvwJBI/AAAAAAAAYxc/GufaOMLKGek/s1600/Homer%2BBadman%2B-%2BGrabbing%2BVenus.JPG

Two useless data points re: age.

My partner is 32 and is a rabid R.E.M. fan--saw them live, has Tourfilm on VHS and various books, even has one or two Peter Buck solo records signed by him. She got into them as a teen via a general interest in college rock/post-punk. I think her father had a few records, s

I'm a few years older and dig them too, but that's a recent development thanks to her influence. I was a casual fan in college, had the IRS/Warner hits CD and Murmur. Didn't really get into them until her influence, when I sat down and went through their discography.

the fall whose genre and lineup seemed to be entirely determined by the whims of one capricious dickhead's ego

point of order: lineup yes. genre? once the musicians were assembled they had quite a lot of freedom (so long as what they did was to the chairman's liking)

i like Can

also I'm not sure why but REM have always bored me to tears, while Scott Miller is one of my favourite songwriters - I mostly put this down to melodic sensibilities, sonic choices, compositional foci

There is no greater gulf between “their best stuff” and “their worst stuff” than there is with Can.

MES more miles than james brown then?

unfortunately the thing that makes it the fall is also the most obnoxious part of the band. a bit like dave matthews xps

I don't know any of can's worst stuff, I've never heard anything past the mid 70s so it's all good afaic. is it worse than those post morrison doors albums?

"worst" can is really not that bad

We would have achieved the hipster singularity had Pavement ever covered "I am Damo Suzuki."

Btw – and I know we're getting way off-topic here – I was startled to see Stipe criticize (then-)President GHW Bush on the grounds that (among other things) he had "never uttered the words 'greenhouse effect'". I did not recall the "greenhouse effect" already being so front-and-center back then.

In 1990, the Labor government set a target to reduce carbon emissions to 20% below 1988 levels by 2005.

In 2022, the Labor government set a target to reduce carbon emissions to 7% below 2022 levels by 2031.

if anything i really remember "greenhouse effect" being one of the most common terms back in the Reagan/Bush era and it seems to be used much less now.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4777288/user-clip-george-bush-1988-environmental-policy-speech-1988

We would have achieved the hipster singularity had Pavement ever covered "I am Damo Suzuki."

― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, November 14, 2023 1:51 PM (thirty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

they did basically cover "sing swan song" in the back half of "stop breathin"

1987

https://content.time.com/time/magazine/archive/covers/1987/1101871019_400.jpg

going through old time magazine covers is a trip, btw

I used to it on my lunch break at the uni library.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/46/72/61/4672619fb0e9f48d7122ea19e4d59036.jpg

greenhouse effect and acid rain for all

I like pavement fine, but one thing I've never totally understood was the comparison of Pavement to the Fall. I like, don't hear the influence one bit.

our singer hip priest

i mean, "new face in hell" and "conduit for sale" are very similar. that's one bit. but the "they're just fall rip-offs" tag for pavement is overstated probably. they were ripping off a lot of different bands! like everyone does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpwhcn9R-PQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DXBR3oxlr0

if anything i really remember "greenhouse effect" being one of the most common terms back in the Reagan/Bush era and it seems to be used much less now.

Yeah to be clear, I remember the term being used, just not the level of public concern already being at the point of politicians being called to take action, Time magazine covers, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6emjzA8uKGo

"hit the plane down" is very mark. e smith, too. oh and "two states" sounds like a 'this nation's saving grace' outtake

I can't believe I find myself agreeing with table on something but they're otm re: The Fall. Even if they're wrong about almost everything else.

I'm not sure where this whole frat boy thing is coming from but the jocks at my school were definitely not listening to Pavement. Maybe The Prodigy or Metallica or something I found utterly mindless at the time (and still do).

Well they're not exactly jocks either (the band or the most fans, I guess), although a few of the Pavement guys clearly have an interest in sports (which shows up in the lyrics sometimes).