Taylor Swift - Midnights

I wonder if the “concert film” is about to become A THING, the way super hero movies were.

I would think there are only a handful of artists who can bring in big enough crowds to make it profitable?

We'll probably see a Morgan Wallen one

If nothing else the success of the financial model is what will attract others.

I'll stream/illegally download it when it comes out online but I don't see myself shelling out $20 to see someone who I like more as a songwriter than a performer (Swifties marvelling at how she could walk to the beat onstage comes to mind, the bar is apparently that low lol)

*to see someone onscreen, like I would obv shell out more to see her in person but it feels even less essential to see it in concert film form is what I meant

anyway

I've come to Taylor Swift through my kids and only know a handful of songs. Will be taking my 9 year old to the movie this Friday.

Does it feel three hours long? Because that's a long concert movie.

I wonder if the “concert film” is about to become A THING, the way super hero movies were.

It was a minor thing in the late 2000s/early 2010s, bookended by Miley Cyrus/Hannah Montana (2008) and One Direction (2013) and including Justin Bieber, Katy Perry, and the Jonas Brothers. Tbf, some (all?) of those weren't exactly full-on concert films but more like backstage documentaries with ample performance footage. And that kind of thing never went away, it just moved to streaming (Billie Eilish, Lizzo, etc.) So the interesting thing about the Swift movie is that it's apparently just a concert film. In fact, I saw Stop Making Sense the other night at a theater that was also playing Eras Tour and thought it notable that two of its screens were devoted to concert films.

i would make a gag about SMS having a more "adult flavor for a mature audience" but TS's songs are hornier than TH songs

I think YGFDE is a better example of adult flavor. PW and FR not withstanding.

I've come to Taylor Swift through my kids and only know a handful of songs. Will be taking my 9 year old to the movie this Friday.

Does it feel three hours long? Because that's a long concert movie.

― Cow_Art, Tuesday, October 17, 2023 8:02 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I have a 9-year-old, too. Personally, I didn't think it felt overly long (though I'm a fan, and she did ask me at a couple points how much time was left). We did get up twice (well timed with the f bombs) to use the bathroom and get popcorn. Have fun!

I've read / tried to read a few long pieces recently about the tour and/or film, and they feel like so much mythmaking; like the writers are such huge fans that they're unable to address the subject without producing hagiography. And yet they also don't explain what they like so much about Taylor as a musical artist... it's just taken as a given that she's the greatest thing ever, and all that remains is to articulate how transporting it is to be in her presence or watch her on film.

It makes me queasy, feels cult-like, this level of devotion...

Yeah, it's odd, especially since this megastar iconography thing probably reached its peak with Michael Jackson. I guess because TS doesn't seem like she has skeletons in the closet or aspirations to be a cult leader it comes off as more wholesome?

genuinely didn't think we'd ever see another pop star on the order of Michael Jackson but Taylor has got to be up there right? is she huge internationally as well?

The film earned an additional estimated $31 million to $33 million across 94 international territories in over 4,500 theaters, putting its global receipts at $126 million to $130 million.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/business/media/taylor-swift-eras-movie-box-office.html

I've read / tried to read a few long pieces recently about the tour and/or film, and they feel like so much mythmaking; like the writers are such huge fans that they're unable to address the subject without producing hagiography. And yet they also don't explain what they like so much about Taylor as a musical artist... it's just taken as a given that she's the greatest thing ever, and all that remains is to articulate how transporting it is to be in her presence or watch her on film.

It makes me queasy, feels cult-like, this level of devotion...

― Chavez video on MTV, July 1995 (morrisp), Tuesday, October 17, 2023 10:53 AM (fifty-six minutes ago)

you may be looking in the wrong place for what amounts to music criticism. i think it makes sense that coverage of the tour is going to largely focus on the spectacle of the show, what it's like to be there, why this person provokes the responses the writer is witnessing etc. stadium tours are not really about putting songwriting in the spotlight

It is interesting to think of Swift's success in the context of streaming, the balkanization of music, the explosion of micro and regional-specific genres, etc. For some reason I find it reassuring that someone can still unite music fans to the degree she has.

I also genuinely believe Swift is the most talented songwriter of the 21st century and felt for a long time (and still even hear/read it on occasion) that she was dismissed by many--primarily older men--who saw/see her work as inferior or unworthy, so there's a righteousness in supporting the Eras tour and being witness to her success.

i'd be interested in reading a good piece that tried to really tease out what is driving her celebrity to break through several new heights in the last 12 months, from someone who really understands her career. i think i feel what you're feeling about the tour related journalism morris insofar as there doesn't seem to be anyone really getting to anything revelatory to answer the question "why"

the big taffy akner piece in the times about the tour is a great example of something that tells both a personal narrative about the writer's relationship to taylor and the tour, as well as retells taylor's career story, without actually providing much if any insight as to what happened to get us to this moment. like, this excerpt...

The college student told me that the night before, she’d been “baptized” — her word. She’s in her 20s now, but she has been listening to Taylor Swift since she was a teenager. She used to sing her songs in front of a mirror, alone in her bedroom, and Taylor Swift was a part of her childhood, not just in the way you look back fondly, but in the ways you look back with embarrassment.

“All the ways you’re so ashamed of the person you were right before this moment,” she said. “You could so easily be ashamed of singing Taylor Swift in your bedroom. You could leave it behind. But she doesn’t let you. She says, ‘Look, I’m getting older, too.’ You grow with her. What if we weren’t ashamed of our eras? What if we realized they were always with us, and you just didn’t have to feel shame about who you were?” She started crying; baby, I did, too.

tries to offer some insight as to a fan's relationship w/ this artist and how it's changed over time but what we get is meaningless gobbledygook. how has she grown with her audience, aside from the natural course of aging? what does "what if we weren't ashamed of our eras" mean... like actually?

the one thing i've heard/read about taylor that has stuck w/ me is brittany spanos from rolling stone saying on a podcast last year that taylor made a decision to consciously court a younger, child-based audience w/ lead singles like "shake it off," "look what you made me do," and "me!" ... the first and third of which are brightly colored brainless mainstream fluff of the highest order & the second of which is a song only babies could enjoy. i think this is the only thing i can remember that's really offered a theory as to how the most calculated pop star of her generation managed to further weaponize that celebrity

I have a young kid and all through the years of birthday parties, preschool festivals, elementary school picnics, etc. there have been DJs playing TS like every other song. Kids who are teens now probably lived through this too.

xp Do you buy that theory? My child is obsessed with the first four albums and loses interest with Reputation when she shifted to a more adult sound. I wouldn't have ever thought to lump those three tracks together into a "mindless" bucket -- "Me!" is one of many throwaway collaborations she's done with male musicians starting with Red that seemed more about cross-pollination fanbases than courting a younger audience.

Spelling is fun!

Hey... I enjoy "Look What You Made Me Do"!

"me!" is very trolls-coded, that's the only one i'd really buy that theory about

i grew to love "look what you made me do" but i am a baby tbh

(fwiw, that NYT Magazine piece was one of the ones I was referring to...)

thinking about it, i'd argue "look what you made me do" is the least calculated and most like personal lead t swift single ever maybe, like that shit is her to the bone, creeping sense of secondhand-embarrassment and all

How does one even distinguish between songs that were written and recorded with calculation to court a young audience from those that were written and recorded with sincerity because Taylor Swift is a young woman interested in writing and recording songs for young people/women?

Me!" is one of many throwaway collaborations she's done with male musicians starting with Red that seemed more about cross-pollination fanbases than courting a younger audience.

Why not both?

We need to get all Derrida here and deconstruct this sincerity vs calculation binary, never useful in pop music.

"I believe this wonderful song I'm writing for my teen fans makes a lot of money" is a perfectly honest position.

If it has a Bon Iver feature it's sincere. If it has an Ed Sheeran feature it's calculation.

if it has a G-Eazy feature it's 2014

if it has Aaron Neville you're playing your mom's Linda Ronstadt.

still kind of amazed the shot they chose for the movie poster is one where it appears Taylor is farting into the mic.

(I'm not a Taylor hater, like quite a few of her songs, but it's the only thing I can think of when I see that poster).

Haha, comforted to know I wasn't the only one that thought that.

92.8 million over the weekend. more than Bieber's Never Say Never did in 46 weeks

xp It would sound better than "Me!"... (does she perform that on tour, or does its greatness rely on the vocal stylings of Brendon Urie?)

How does one even distinguish between songs that were written and recorded with calculation to court a young audience from those that were written and recorded with sincerity because Taylor Swift is a young woman interested in writing and recording songs for young people/women?

― Indexed, Tuesday, October 17, 2023 12:38 PM (twenty minutes ago)

so goes the job of the music critic!

but yeah i actually do think there is credence to the theory. there is a noticeable shift in between 'red' and '1989' in terms of how she approached lead singles and those singles relationships to their albums. compare "we are never getting back together" and 'red' vs "shake it off" and '1989' -- the only tether between "shake it off" and the rest of '1989' is the vague notion of it being a "pop" album, otherwise it sticks out like a sore thumb. i would argue "look what you made me do" sticks out similarly & as it was related to the kim/kanye thing it's prob the most calculated single of her career, all the cringe and secondhand embarrassment of the final product aside. i think "me!" fits this theory less so from a sonic perspective in relation to 'lover,' but the songwriting -- that real reaching for the stars skyscraping of the hook -- feels in opposition to the heart of that record, to me.

i also think we know enough about her music to know that when she is interested in writing/recording songs for young women (all the time) she generally has a lot more to offer from a lyrical perspective than she does on "shake it off" or "me!" i'm not criticizing her for making pop singles, but i find it surprising that you guys are bristling so heavily against the idea that taylor swift, who clearly desires global omnipresence, may have thought strategically about how to bridge the gap between generations w/in her fanbase, and how she could build that bridge w/ her lead singles.

to me one of the most foundational taylor swift texts is her self-written elle cover story from the 'lover' era about pop music as an art form. here's some things she says

The fun challenge of writing a pop song is squeezing those evocative details into the catchiest melodic cadence you can possibly think of. I thrive on the challenge of sprinkling personal mementos and shreds of reality into a genre of music that is universally known for being, well, universal.

You’d think that as pop writers, we’re supposed to be writing songs that everyone can sing along to, so you’d assume they would have to be pretty lyrically generic... AND YET the ones I think cut through the most are actually the most detailed, and I don’t mean in a Shakespearean sonnet type of way, although I love Shakespeare as much as the next girl. Obviously. (See “Love Story,” 2008).

We actually do NOT want our pop music to be generic. I think a lot of music lovers want some biographical glimpse into the world of our narrator, a hole in the emotional walls people put up around themselves to survive.

is anyone gonna tell me that "shake it off" or "me!" fit the criteria that she herself has outlined for how to approach pop music? i think it's pretty obvious that she decided she needed to write some sell out songs. even "bad blood" ... does that really hit you as taylor swift-ian songwriting? where are the evocative little details, the "sprinkling of personal mementos"? or did she just surmise that she could make a lot of money if she sung a max martin hook that rhymes "bad blood" with "mad love"? or on "blank space" ... can we think of another taylor swift song w/ a lyric so poorly written/sung that it was completely misunderstood by the entire listening public? that's max martin logic -- melodies over lyrics, universality at all costs. children don't really care about the difference between starbucks lovers and ex-lovers

with 1989 in particular, which is really the key album here in terms of the shift in her career, i think she very clearly sanded down the unique aspects of her songwriting & music in order to make the most broadly appealing, generic pop music that she could muster. idk how you listen to the singles off that album and come away w/ any other conclusion. "shake it off" -- and roping in "me!" here as well -- devolve into bridges that are essentially sesame street songs. i mean, on "me!" brendan urie literally says "hey kids! spelling is fun!" i understand there is irony there but do you not think she is in the most conscious way possible trying to reach actual children with these songs? ones that were not even conceived when "love story" came out? she wrote "me!" when she was 30 years old.

Fwiw, another of those pieces which I (half-)read this morning – apparently by a UK-based (male) music writer and Taylor mega-fan – refers to "Blank Space" as "the best pop song of the 21st Century".

My daughter is 11 and - when I haven't actively tuned out the extensive Taylor Swift related chatter she can produce - I think her favorite two songs are on Folklore and Evermore. So whatever targeting may-or-may-not be going on it has been a complete cosmic fail on her. Though she basically resigned to Taylor Swift fandom based on the power law (though you wouldn't actually know that if I didn't tell you that)

What are her two favorites?

My favorites from those two are Last Great American Whale and Coney Island Baby (featuring the National)

Really? I prefer "Mistrial" ft. Aaron Dessner.

I like "Style It Takes," her song about Harry Styles ("You've got connections and I've got the art /
You like attention and I like your looks"). Actually, I don't think she sung that one...

I’ve got a Brillo Box and I say its art
You get entered in a drawing for free Eras tickets if you spend $500 at Walmart
Cause I’ve got the style it takes

Songs For Lena (Dunham)

One thing that i felt was made very clear by the doco where she performed Folklore live with Dessner and Antonoff (and the Lover piece quotes Jordan cites above) is that all her music is calculated, she very consciously sees her craft as craft, a process of constructing a vast, internally interconnected songbook, where the songs are exploring very deliberate musical, lyrical and thematic ideas. And I get the impression she has an imagined audience for each song. I'm not sure that there's anything necessarily more cynical or less sincere about writing a song whose imagined audience is younger versus writing a song whose imagined audience is older, though that doesn't mean I don't mostly prefer (post-Red) Taylor when she pitches older.

yeah this argument is continually weird to me. An artist who pledges her troth to craft is by nature calculated -- that word is as meaningless a pejorative as "dated." It's like insulting oxygen for being "odorless."

Separately but relatedly, one of the things that came through the Miss Americana doco is that Taylor seems to have a surprisingly broad notion of what "success" looks like. She tends to rise and fall with the quality of her collaborators not so much because she is dependent on them to bring the skill or chops, but because she tends to lean into their vision and shape her own craft to match (which quality she shares a bit with 90s Bjork, though there's few other ways in which I would compare the two).

Alfred otm, same problem I have with “contrived”

or on "blank space" ... can we think of another taylor swift song w/ a lyric so poorly written/sung that it was completely misunderstood by the entire listening public?

It's interesting, j0rdan, I made the same argument about "Wildest Dreams"; pre-1989 Taylor has always been known around my brain as being, among many other things, a peerless "setter of text", she weights her syllables and melodies so smoothly and naturally that it sounded like superpower. Then along comes "Wildest Dreams": "standing in a nice dress", such a decidedly European weighting to put the adjective on the strong beat, and such a milquetoast adjective at that. It's a subtle thing, but my brain screamed "somebody else fucking wrote this" when that song came out.

Yeah “nice dress” bugged me too.