RÓISÍN MURPHY

this really has been depressing and it has upset me more than most "random celebrity I only have a passing interest in says bigoted thing" piece of news

it'll be more telling if that album ends up in their staff EotY list

my theory is p4k fucked up by not giving roisin machine (which is obviously better) a higher score or bnm and so had to overcompensate by overrating this one (same thing they’ve done with the 1975 after panning “I like it when you sleep” or the-dream after ignoring love vs money and love/hate) and they had it as like a 9.5 BNM until the trans stuff came out then compromised

fuck you pitchfork

where’s the retrospective credit thread

lol @ the whole idea of lowering the score being the right move

"we were going to give this Lostprophets record a 6.2 but considering... events, we really have no choice but to give it a 5.3 instead"

p4k fucked this one up _extremely badly_. prior to this, i didn't have any reason to think that they didn't support trans people. now i do.

You probably could have guessed that when they said Ginger Spice looked like a t-word

You probably could have guessed that when they said Ginger Spice looked like a t-word

― kirsten gilla band (Whiney G. Weingarten)

sure, if i'd been reading pitchfork enough to be aware of that. when was that? i mean everybody _used_ to be transphobic.

christ she's playing the toilet circuit now:

I GOT A VENUE FOR TOMORROW NIGHT! Another stripped back and very intimate show. It’s my pleasure to do these shows. The ones in Leeds and Kingston were a revelation to me, revealing more about the songs and a different aspect to my performance🖤 https://t.co/LFEWq9AQdE pic.twitter.com/NkdxohCio4

— Róisín Murphy (@roisinmurphy) September 13, 2023

transphobes playing toilets seems fitting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAnb8Rieqig

it's this place btw

https://img.restaurantguru.com/rdd6-facade-The-Boileroom-Music-and-Cultural-Arts-Space.jpg

just round the corner from Andertons iirc

What? LOL

IRL LOL

honestly lol @ "I GOT A VENUE FOR TOMORROW NIGHT!"

You probably could have guessed that when they said Ginger Spice looked like a t-word

― kirsten gilla band (Whiney G. Weingarten)

sure, if i'd been reading pitchfork enough to be aware of that. when was that? i mean everybody _used_ to be transphobic.

In a 2010 list on jokey 90s lists. The bottom of the list now reads: "CORRECTION: A previous version of this article contained language that was offensive. It has been removed."

no shortage of pubs with bigoted landlords, she could be doing this for quite a while tbf

dumpy's roisin nuts

In a 2010 list on jokey 90s lists. The bottom of the list now reads: "CORRECTION: A previous version of this article contained language that was offensive. It has been removed."

― you can see me from westbury white horse

yeah in 2010 that kind of language was what i'd describe as "pervasive and all-encompassing". for about the first 40 years of my life my experience was that there was this kind of self-perpetuating hegemonic state of enforced ignorance regarding transness. that said i only speak for me, there are probably trans people out there who found that list offensive and have not, and never will, give p4k a pass on that one, and i support them completely in that. for me personally, though? not a blip.

i'm just tired of the Discourse. every day it's something else, and right now this niche artist who most people have never heard of stands a very real chance of blowing up because she said some bigoted shit and that made a lot of people unhappy. probably the new york times or somebody will do a sympathetic profile on her soon enough, it sounds like something they'd do, and if that happens, it'll matter more than this. in the meantime, though, i feel like not reviewing the new record by someone who said bigoted shit, a record the label has chosen not to promote because of the artist's open bigotry... i don't know. to me that seems like kind of a no-brainer. i guess p4k sees it differently, got someone - and is it a cis person? it wouldn't make it ok if it was a trans person, i mean, we're all different, i'm still gonna be pissed about it, but if on top of that they got some fucking cis person to review it... like i said. to me, that's a pretty major fuck-up.

i mean i try not to make a big deal out of it. i was kind of losing my shit over it earlier this year, but nowadays, i try not to make a big deal out of it. i'm aware of it, though, i'm aware that there's a very real chance that people like me could all wind up dead. and whether or not that happens isn't up to me. it's up to cis people. how much they support us. how much they stand behind us.

i don't feel like pitchfork did a really good job supporting trans people in this case.

she's gonna blow up the same way Ariel Pink did after 1/6

dumpy's roisin nuts

― NickB, Wednesday, 13 September 2023 20:01 (twenty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

LOL

tbf frogbs Murphy is UK-based and being a trabsphobe is considerably more of a popular position amongst the UK liberal press than right wing insurrection is amongst the US equivalent.

Still think that not reviewing it at all would've been a better move.

― jaymc, Wednesday, September 13, 2023 9:57 AM (five hours ago)

there's so few outlets left consistently reviewing albums that i'd rather publications err on the side of writing about music made by problematic artists than just pretending the music doesn't exist. honestly, being able to approach & critique music made by people who do/say bad things should be a tool in the bag of any modern music critic, because the problematic artists -- in all genres/spaces -- don't appear to be going away. i guess i look at it as like, actually the function of the music critic is in these exact moments, to synthesize discussion happening culturally around an album, provide further context to the reader, and ultimately put forth an informed and hopefully engaging argument regarding the music and its relationship to the bad person who made it. i think snapes did this most effectively but i personally don't want to see any lesser critical engagement, in general, w/ big records than we get now. i actually don't think the press has the ability to like boost artists careers anymore, so it's more about the critic's relationship to conversations happening on social media and other forums... i like the idea of conversation funneling up towards critics even in, or especially in, the case of a problematic artist.

w/ pitchfork it's a bit messier bcuz their scores function as a big institutional stamp of approval or disapproval in a way that isn't inherent to other publications, but anytime a big album comes out nowadays there's like maybe like 2 worthwhile things to read about it. i was really curious what people had to say about this record. idk i like reading criticism

idk if the conversation in this case is that interesting to synthesize but i don’t have much of a perspective on it beyond “it ruins her music” and “it’s depressing that terfs are falling over themselves to praise her bravery and music.” all i got. would be finer with this form of engagement if at least a rating weren’t applied every single time

i mean, i’m wrong, it’s interesting, yeah, artist with ravenous queer following completely betrays them on the eve of a big album with dj koze would probably be an interesting story to me if i weren’t like… directly affected by it lol

she's gonna blow up the same way Ariel Pink did after 1/6

― frogbs

i mean transphobia is pretty mainstream, there's a lot of pretty open bigotry against trans people that's accepted. who was doing the "both sides" thing on the 1/6 thing? because there are plenty of people today, including papers like the new york times, who are doing "both sides" on trans rights.

i mean, i’m wrong, it’s interesting, yeah, artist with ravenous queer following completely betrays them on the eve of a big album with dj koze would probably be an interesting story to me if i weren’t like… directly affected by it lol

― ivy.

right, otm, the issue here, and i feel like maybe j0rdan isn't getting this, is that trans people in the us are in serious danger, at serious risk, and these things that are being done against trans people, to hurt trans people, they're not only being seriously challenged but the bigotry is escalating and becoming more and more severe. trans people are under concerted, direct attack, and it is _entirely possible_ that this attack will succeed.

if that weren't the case, i mean, i'm with ivy, this would all be _extremely interesting_, you could probably make an award-winning documentary about it.

they're not only being seriously challenged

not only _not_ being seriously challenged, sorry

i’m sure j0rd gets that. i’m really sympathetic to his position bc i don’t want less criticism

but, i guess i’m making an obvious point here, there’s not just one kind of problematic artist. there are artists i write about still who absolutely documentedly sucked ass and i guess even though i hate it it doesn’t fundamentally alter my image of them and their relationship to their art. here an artist revealed that something i took for granted as layer of her music was actually false and thus the whole thing collapsed. five stars

“gone fishing,” that song means nothing now!!!!

tbf frogbs Murphy is UK-based and being a trabsphobe is considerably more of a popular position amongst the UK liberal press than right wing insurrection is amongst the US equivalent.

― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, September 13, 2023 3:44 PM (thirty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

sure but in general the new "fans" you get when you do shit like this are pretty fickle. they'll check out her stuff, probably think it's interesting or neat, and then forget about it in 2 weeks. Ariel Pink got a ton of streams the week he went on Tucker and then dropped off a cliff. JK Rowling's bullshit maybe brought a few people into the Harry Potter fandom but it caused way way more to leave. Dilbert got dropped from every newspaper and is now a subscription webcomic that probably pulls in about $50 a month. and Dilbert doesn't even say "fuck" in it. I guess what's I'm saying is lets see where she is the next time an album rolls around

tbc I don't think she'll have a huge influx of new loyal fans - I just think the media treatment of her will be sympathetic enough for her to basically maintain her previous status, which I don't think you'dbe able to say about Ariel Pink

Shocked that Ariel Pink is currently at 680K monthly listeners on Spotify. Was he ever substantially higher than that? Maybe I'm underestimating his previous popularity, but he never sold a ton of records at our stores, even at the height of his "popularity".

in conclusion, róisín murphy is the cm punk of music

it would have been so easy not to choose to make the world a bit worse by covering this album but p4k's relationship with queer artistry / audiences is a lot like RM's when you get down to it

wait, sorry if this is an inappropriate question to ask, what did cm punk do? i don't really follow him very closely but i always understood him to be one of the few wrestlers to be generally fighting the good fight.

the cm stands for "child molester"

re:ariel pink maybe it’s from his songs appearing on curated playlists and such rather than people actively choosing to listen to him

lol sorry he is not someone who’s done anything morally wrong (unless threatening your boss’ life is morally wrong and i think we all know the answer there is “depends”) but his last run in aew confirmed to me he’s a huge phony who presents himself as a certain thing he is not

xp re: cm punk

his last run in aew confirmed to me he’s a huge phony who presents himself as a certain thing he is not

A professional wrestler? No!!!!!

thanks ivy, was curious. hadn't followed him much in recent years, just remembered that he seemed to piss off some wresting fans with his vocal trans rights support (which i'm gathering was about as legit as RM's)

it would have been so easy not to choose to make the world a bit worse by covering this album but p4k's relationship with queer artistry / audiences is a lot like RM's when you get down to it

― your original display name is still visible (Left), Wednesday, September 13, 2023 5:39 PM (two minutes ago)

isn't there a difference between criticism and coverage though? they aren't actually "covering" the album -- they've posted a single news story about roisin in the last month and it's after she released her statement regarding the controversy. they've declined to cover even any further fallout. so is the act of good faith critical engagement w/ a piece of art in of itself contributing to a worse version of the world? i think i disagree w/ that assertion in most cases. this case would be one of them, for me. "this personally/culturally meaningful artist has suddenly changed our perception of him/her because of offensive speech/actions and it's harming my ability to listen to/enjoy this music" is a real & relevant emotion and i don't agree that working thru that dynamic via criticism is contributing to a worse or more violent world

i knew someone would do that and my very earnest reply is that wrestling is as rooted in reality as any other art

xp

i also don't think the assertion that ariel pink's fanbase has grown since the capitol incident would hold up to scrutiny

whatever

No one was saying that! He was being used as an example of a career that patently did not benefit from his heel turn.

"this personally/culturally meaningful artist has suddenly changed our perception of him/her because of offensive speech/actions and it's harming my ability to listen to/enjoy this music" is a real & relevant emotion and i don't agree that working thru that dynamic via criticism is contributing to a worse or more violent world

Dunno about a worse or more violent world but I do think it's an experience that has been written about plenty, sometimes feels like the only thing music criticism has expressed in the past couple decades, and while ofc a transcendentally great writer might still wring something out of it it mostly feels like that well's pretty dry now, regardless of new examples popping up.