Norman this is heresy...Ned back me up here
I am much more of a Cure fan than an Echo fan, to be sure -- whereas I scrounged Napster and the like for every last Cure rarity I could find, I just let the Echo box set do that for me, see. And I'm much more prone to putting on Faith than Heaven Up Here etc. -- but I fully sympathize with where Norman is coming from. My good friend Karen feels the same way; Echo were one of 'her' bands when growing up in the eighties, though I'd have to ask her to delineate the full reasons why she has said preference (then again, she might find the thread and do that for me!).
Suffice to say that Echo have their own particular brilliance I will not deny. But Bob and company are on a higher plane for me. :-)
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Sean Carruthers, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
I don't know if it's been mentioned much in this (long now!) thread, but it seems to me like a lot of the things people hate about the Doors are painfully similar to all kinds of rock-n-roll romanticism and sexuality and druggy hedonism.
― Josh, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Julio Desouza, Friday, 5 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― maryann, Saturday, 6 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Queen G of the pinched nerve in her neck, Saturday, 6 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
I think Oliver Stone has done more to perpetuate Doors hate than any real Doors detractor ever has. Just thinking about that movie annoys me.
― Nicole, Saturday, 6 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― alex in mainhattan, Saturday, 6 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
You people didn't go into The Doors w/ the right attitude. Yes it's awful but I found it very funny.
― Andy K, Saturday, 6 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ben Williams, Saturday, 6 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Josh, Saturday, 6 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
The soundtrack helped as well.
― Julio Desouza, Saturday, 6 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
Plus it has Meg Ryan, and anything with Meg Ryan in it is pure evil.
Even Kyle McLachlan can't save it, and he is the king of movies people think are rub but are secretly brilliant (Showgirls, Dune, etc.).
― mark s, Saturday, 6 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
But i like the movie. I don't care if Oliver stone gave the wrong impression/whatever.
― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 6 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Lord Custos III, Saturday, 6 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
Actually, that doesn't surprise me in the least. Historically speaking, RS has been notorious for carrying on ridiculous turf grudges: overrating SF bands while poo-pooing L.A. bands like the Beach Boys, and the like.
― Michael Daddino, Saturday, 6 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Andrew, Sunday, 7 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Julio Desouza, Sunday, 7 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark s, Sunday, 7 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
But really, maybe some doors fans saw similarities not only artistically but intheir life (both were kinda tragic though i don't know).
The point is Andrew is again using the 'fans suck therefore band/band member does' argument, which in this case doesn't hold.
I'm surprised Smiths fans haven't scribbled the lyrics to "Cemetry Gates" all over Oscar's tombstone.
― Justyn Dillingham, Sunday, 7 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
Are you feeling better now? I don't think so. Have some tea and go to bed, take some rest and you might feel better.
I say this is because it's a completely diff argument. Andrew says that fans scribbled stuff on wilde's grave and therefore it is PROOF that the doors (the band) suck. I say this is not so as the audience hasn't nothing to do w/music a band makes.
Influence was mentioned again because of this line:
''oscar wilde and jim morrison are different ppl, julio''
which was yr influence thing all over: x is diff to y therefore x cannot be influenced by y blah blah. I haf always disagreed with this and have said so on numerous occasions.
"Hast seen the White Whale?"
― John Darnielle, Sunday, 7 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
julio if you cannot spot the significant logical flaw in yr argument IN THAT LAST POST then it is no particular bother to me that i have not persuaded you => the word is a mumbojumbo because you can mean it to mean whatever you want, whenever you want to, exactly as you just did; it explains nothing because it is routinely cited to explain everything or anything or whatever, all switched about and chaotic
the idea abt difft people bears no relationship to anything i have ever said
― dh, Sunday, 7 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
''the word is a mumbojumbo because you can mean it to mean whatever you want, whenever you want to, exactly as you just did; it explains nothing because it is routinely cited to explain everything or anything or whatever, all switched about and chaotic''
No. When i use the word 'influence' it means that a certain artist has a certain relationship w/antoher in the way they sound. because artist x sounds like y then, it could be argued, that y could have been influenced by x. THAT IS ALL. you are the one talking mumbojumbo.
I mean how can you use 'influence' in any other way when talking abt the way music from one time might be realted to another.
julio claims: doors fans are called "doors fans" because doors music has no influence over them and they celebrate their doors fandom — for example by scrawling all over the gravestones of the other poets in pere lachaise — because they have no relationship with the thing they are celebrating
if influence exists, if morrison has power over his listeners, then how they behave is his responsibility
because you are afraid of talking about the nature of this power (except very casually and uncritically when it comes to "marketing") — and because alex in mainhatten is for example afraid of talking about the LIMITS of this power (he thinks it is cynical) — i don't accept that influence is a word with genuine meaning to you, it's just a cover for a bit of intellectual slippage to avoid thinking about something inconvenient, to avoid saying the stuff that might actually be interesting about why [x] sounds like [y]... it's a shorthand, yes, and it's basically a shorthand for "i entirely accept the underyling worldview of the people who write press releases for REM"
john is right that i am probably now over-attuned to it: but hey, it's my whale
(haha david did you not yet read those TWO MASSIVE DOCUMENTS i emailed you?)
Music MIGHT be related from another era/time. Little sounds like, say, cecil taylor but maybe he was looking at what Monk was doing as a starting point to SOMETHING ELSE and then maybe M.SHIPP or FRED VAN HOVE used some of taylor's ideas to something OF THEIR OWN.
''doors fans are called "doors fans" because doors music has no influence over them and they celebrate their doors fandom — for example by scrawling all over the gravestones of the other poets in pere lachaise — because they have no relationship with the thing they are celebrating
if influence exists, if morrison has power over his listeners, then how they behave is his responsibility''
I am not saying there isn't a relationship. What i'm saying is that the relationship isn't on a musical level. When a band starts they have no fans, the music comes from them.
''i don't accept that influence is a word with genuine meaning to you, it's just a cover for a bit of intellectual slippage to avoid thinking about something inconvenient, to avoid saying the stuff that might actually be interesting about why [x] sounds like [y]... it's a shorthand, yes, and it's basically a shorthand for "i entirely accept the underyling worldview of the people who write press releases for REM" ''
I agree that influence may stop you saying things as a critic but that does not mean it means nothing ot that it just doesn't exist. I like your alternative to the 'i' word but influence exists. you are probably a bit mad abt it because it's over-used but there you go.
I don't know abt the worldview of ppl who write press releases for REM but i take it to mean that it is narrow and whatever but you don't know me so don't judge because i happen to disagree with you on a MINOR point.
― david h(owie), Sunday, 7 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
luckily i am ill today and do not have to respond immediately
well i'd like him to go there.
''i am frightened of what we will find there: perhaps it is beyond our capacity to process?''
just a silly excuse then.