Post a controversial music opinion

One thing I never understood -- and I posted this elsewhere -- is why, even though "fusion" owes much of its existence to Hendrix, no "fusion" musicians seemed to seek out Mitch Mitchell for collaboration (or Billy Cox, for that matter).

I agree about Bonham.

Tony Williams did have a crazy arc...utter mastery as a teenager, absorbing all the great drummers and taking it all somewhere new, just incandescent creativity and technique. And then the initial moves into rock and fusion, and my guess is afterward playing jazz at big festivals more than small clubs had a big effect? As well as having his own reputation and being a leader maybe. I know from his clinics that he talked a lot of control and consistency, and changing his technique to achieve it.

And he never stopped playing jazz, he had his group with Mulgrew Miller and Wallace Roney (even if his playing & sound came off as a lot heavier than in the '60s), and focused on composing. His last record was a jazz + orchestra suite that he wrote. It really sucks that he didn't live to be an elder statesmen and mix it up with the current generation, I'd love to know what kind of influence they might have had on him aesthetically.

xp

Austin, thanks for the prompt. Mitchell is also up there in all-time world-class forever faves. So maybe

Mitchell = Bonham >>>>>> Moon = Watts >>> Baker

As may be clear by now I am not a Baker fan

somebody once tried to tell me that hendrix was "ruined" while being backed by mitchell and that band of gypsies was clearly superior. lol.

i've always really liked mitch mitchell and thought of his style as similar to moon's in that kind of "controlled chaos" sort of mode. mitchell obviously has a lot more restraint by comparison, but he was constantly just all over the place.

on that note, miles was documented about how much of an impact hendrix had on him - d'ya think tony williams absorbed any of mitchell's vibe, like idk, via osmosis?

I also think of Mitchell & Moon as more similar, less as pocket drummers and more as jazz-influenced, busy, and interactive.

Tbh the only Hendrix LP I really spent any serious time with is the Live at the Fillmore East record with Buddy Miles, so through that I'm a Band of Gypsies > UK trio person, lol.

Fun fact: Mitchell auditioned for the Who in 1964, but (obviously) didn’t get the gig.

The Jimi Hendrix Experience doesn't get nearly as much recognition and appreciation as they deserve these days.

(imagining an alternate timeline where moon ends up in the jhe)

the who kinda suck!

laswell glop vs zorn glop

<3 kurt

Dude you want to hear the worst of the worst you gotta check out the Ginger Baker Bill Laswell albums there's like 20 of them.

Ok maybe there's only 2.

Axis is my favorite, and I think Hendrix and the Experience were obviously great players but I think he's so (deservedly) revered as a player he doesn't get enough credit for making great records, great songs with super creative production choices

Ranking of drummers who couldn't sing but sang anyway:

Moon
Baker
Williams

Mitch Mitchell put lots of pauses and holes in his drumming, it feels like he got Hendrix floating.

my fav jimi shows are the exp/gypsies hybrid with cox on bass and mitchell on drums

I def prefer Zorn Glop to Laswell Glop. Laswell Glop has that weird uncanny ECM sheen to it (fretless bass and too much reverb).

And I agree that it's weird that apparently no one wanted to play with Mitchell post-Hendrix. Not even Laswell! You'd think he would have thrown him on an Arcana or Material record, to bring things full circle.

Drummers who drum like that (Loosely, I mean the Mitchell, Moon, Bonham, Baker type) could only get away with it because they were in solid bands that didn't need a centered drummer keeping things rock-steady. They were skilled enough to have a drummer who just played whatever-the-fuck because they didn't need the drummer to be a metronome.

Manyof those bands didn't require a timekeeper to hold down the backbeat, they got the other thing that drummers can provide: manic flurries of ornament.

There's a thing about this: think of the plays "Hamlet" and "King Lear."

Switch the protagonist and you get significantly shorter plays.

Surely you didn't mean to include Bonham in there

yeah was gonna say

I wouldn't call Baker loose, either, if anything his fault was heavy-handedness. But keeping the rhythm wasn't his specialty either.

he kinda sucks actually the more i think about it

i used to think of him as a great drummer i didn't like that much but i think that was just because i felt like he was so well regarded in drummer world i had to take him seriously

Baker's not great on the records that made his name (Cream, mostly). But some of the other stuff — Air Force, the album with Fela, the first Ginger Baker Trio record, his last album Why? — is enjoyable. If you come in with your arms crossed, "Impress me, Mr. Self-Declared Drum God!", then no, there's nothing there. But if you just listen to them as blends of jazz, rock, and West African rhythms, there's more than enough to enjoy there.

oh I do like that first Baker Gurvitz Army record okay though I have a pretty high tolerance for that kinda 70s wooly mammoth hard rock shit

i'll check out those recommendations

to me, Laswell is like half-assed Zorn

Baker is great on that Fela record but he shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as those other drummers

Jordan / ums, fair point! Bonham did seventy times as much timekeeping as the sloppy tomwankers. He is in a category of his own.

Still, Mitchell and Bonham are in a premier tier of all-fuckin-time musicians.

Moon was a lovable goofball. Never claimed to be a genius or a drum god. I am not a fan of his playing but I don't hate him.

Baker's playing is often incoherent sloppy tomwankery. Yet he thought he was a genius and a drum God. Hence he gets some opprobrium.

I love Moon but as people have said there's exactly one band he would have worked in, and he was in it, but it's thrilling to me to hear him and the Ox going apeshit

I wish there was film of the Ginger Baker / Elvin Jones drum battle. (Elvin wins this one)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuFwXfwGVEE

It's not that no one wanted to play with Mitchell. He retired after Jimi.

do u guys love music or what? that baker jones recording is wonderful!

enjoy the trash talk but tbh ginger baker is sounding great atm

It's not that no one wanted to play with Mitchell. He retired after Jimi.

I got to see Mitchell play once in 1986 - with junked-out Stevie Ray Vaughn on a "Voodoo Child" cover, but Albert Collins and Hank Ballard were also there so it was pretty mind-blowing.

Mitchell is almost my favorite drummer from that period, close to Bonham.

My anti-Baker feelings are well documented. I don't love Moon's playing but he didn't take himself half as seriously as Baker so he gets more likeage from me purely because of that. Yeah I'm shallow, deal with it.

That's so siq Elvis!

Here's the video of Baker getting smoked by Art Blakey if you haven't seen it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y32V6klRurY

While the Baker documentary is a little spotty, it made me realize I hadn't spent nearly enough time with Art Blakey/The Jazz Messengers. I bought one of those cheapo CD boxes (21 albums on 10 CDs) and listened to very little else for the next six months or so.

they are so good.

i did a partial jazz messengers discog run when i was doing that exhaustive wayne shorter listening project and yeah it is pretty much the greatest music ever played

ok fine lol, I still haven't dived in but clearly I need to

I did the same Brad, and once again came to the same conclusion. Those Lee Morgan/Wayne Shorter era Art Blakey albums through the Shorter '60s records, whew, what else do you need.

A Night in Tunisia was one of the first jazz cds I bought (because it was on sale) and the opening of the title track struck me like the hammer of the gods.

When I finally heard the Parker/Gillespie and other versions later, they just felt so wimpy to me. How's that for a controversial opinion?!

Yeah, that track and the album Free For All are some of the most sweep-you-away-like-a-tidal-wave jazz records of all time.

i picked up Hard Bop by the Messengers a while back, not one of the more famous lineups but really great:

Art Blakey - drums
Bill Hardman - trumpet
Jackie McLean - alto saxophone
Sam Dockery - piano
Spanky DeBrest - bass

bit Jackie McLean fan in general and idk who he is but "Sparky DeBrest" is a hell of a name and he plays great

Drummers who drum like that (Loosely, I mean the Mitchell, Moon, Bonham, Baker type) could only get away with it because they were in solid bands that didn't need a centered drummer keeping things rock-steady. They were skilled enough to have a drummer who just played whatever-the-fuck because they didn't need the drummer to be a metronome.

― coolgnoscenti (Ye Mad Puffin)

for me it's more than that, mitchell was a key driving force in hendrix's music. i do think hendrix is sort of overlooked these days... i like a lot of rock guitar stuff, but hendrix's playing, to me that's in a whole different league. i've heard him play stuff...

look, check out this live version of "spanish castle magic" from the fillmore east, may 1969.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZBUJtK5H0k

it's a mediocre audience recording but halfway through his solo it's like... what _is_ this? what the fuck even _is_ this? i don't mean on, like, a technical level. i just mean that i get the same feeling from it that i get from listening to someone like josef hassid. that's the best i can come up with.

and i feel like as a drummer mitchell really drove a lot of that, gave hendrix the freedom and creativity to just go way the fuck out there.

oh spanish castle magic starts at 31:10, i forget that the linking here doesn't do timestamps

i like a lot of rock guitar stuff, but hendrix's playing, to me that's in a whole different league. i've heard him play stuff...

lol @ posting this in the controp thread <3

Drummers who drum like that (Loosely, I mean the Mitchell, Moon, Bonham, Baker type) could only get away with it because they were in solid bands that didn't need a centered drummer keeping things rock-steady. They were skilled enough to have a drummer who just played whatever-the-fuck because they didn't need the drummer to be a metronome.

― coolgnoscenti (Ye Mad Puffin)

Does Robert Wyatt sit with this group wrt Soft Machine, would you say?