The world has gone musically mad

Er... I think?

I think the D Boon/ Low cases are instructive, toward the point that the setup of recording contracts makes it nigh impossible for some artists to profit, much less prosper, from their music.

i hate to bring "indie" into this but someone has to. Low's relatively meager earnings have more to do with the fact that they release records on an independent label than with the setup of their contract - i think kranky's royalty rates are normal by indie standards.

what makes this subject so touchy for a lot of people (myself included) is that when a Fall song appears in an ad accompanied by the obligatory "TWMAMO" arg it means that something many of us really truly want to believe in ISN'T WORKING - that all efforts to establish a viable parallel as-lizard-free-as-possible commercial universe are futile and/or hopelessly misguided. very very simply stated = "if the Fall can't make it none of us can". this tends to get lost in the usual simplistic/elitist/kneejerk hysteria but there are a few of us poor decrepit souls trying to understand and articulate a very specific frustration/disappointment that has nothing to do with crying "sellout" or lamenting the theft of a misty nicey-nice memory by ford motors.

If such an offer was proffered to the badn, do you really think a major contract -- with its incrementally higher royalty rate but monumentally higher recoupables -- would earn them more money? You can tell from the phrasing of the question that I don't think so.

The only niche-oriented (I love Low, but they definitely fulfill/occupy a niche) "indie" band I can think of who made some decent hay out the major label fandango was probably Royal Trux. They ripped Virgin Rec's off wholesale (and created one of the worst album covers ever int the preocess) as far as I've heard.

Not that indie is panacea, duh, look at many folks' gripes with SST, amongst others.

But anyhow, you gotta feed the baby.

I was gonna say that sometimes songs licensed to TV and movies bother me as much as/more than when used in advertising. You have pinpointed part of the reason.

Well, maybe they are. In the end, I'm anti-utopian; the baby trumps the dream. We all live in the world, and in the market, it's all one. I really don't want to sound like a prick, but what kind of "alternative commerical universe" consists only of pop music? How about some lizard-free gas stations, to start with?

I brought up the Low situation to argue against the "sellout" cry, which I suppose hadn't actually been made. But in a larger sense, I don't think these things belong to us as fans, and it's these moral qualms about what a song should be used for that seem proprietary to my ears. That, and I think that falling in love with/to a song and hearing it used to pump an SUV are part of the same story, the glittery sweating ugly human comedy [/cliche]. As much as I admire the stubborn refusal that is at the heart of the utopian dream, and wish that it was right or even possible, I think it's a retreat.

Really, who got the shit end of the deal? Low made exactly what they wanted to make, that their audience wanted, the Gap paid them, and got what? To sell some pants? (weren't their sales in the fucking toilet at the time, btw?) How utopian is that?

(I think if I worked in advertising [and going by Creative Review, the label of choice is Warp] I wouldn't use music I liked in ads, because, well, I *would* feel a bit precious about sullying songs I loved (films, though, would be a different matter). I think I would follow the Scooter principle of using fucked up versions of terrible songs.)

Anyone else remember when music videos were considered to be bad and horrible and a creation of the 12 foot lizards and all of that because they supposedly kept you from creating your own image of the song? My reaction always was, "I don't get images from the song anyways, so why not have ones that the artist creates?"

Oh, and about the x-ray machines in shoe stores: There was a Colorado store that used one of those things well into the Eighties. The machine was old (Forties vintage, IIRC), broken down, unshielded, and spewing ungodly amounts of radiation into the air. I wonder just how many employees died of cancer because of that thing.

SE: 'But FischerSpooner are about so much more than just music, you really have to SEE them and their show to get the full effect.'
Tom: 'So why have they released an audio CD instead of a Video/DVD?'
SE: 'Because imagined pictures can be so much better than ones you're given!'

Me: Errrr....

well yes but we're talking about musicians and their actual sphere of control not imaginary CEOs. and I don't consider my admittedly quaint and problematic idealism in these matters utopian.

as for the notion of "retreat" (in the sense i think you mean), this begins way before the hypothetical ad-refusal - the moment a group or individual decides to identify as Indie in the first place. since that initial decision is more often than not at least partly ethical, many subsequent commercial decisions also become minor crises tackled in terms of degrees of compromise. but to see a refusal as a "retreat" at this point is a fabricated dilemma - it ignores the fact that the group in question is already engaged in an art/commerce equation at least as complex and sophisticated as the "mainstream" one if not more so. the baby only complicates the dream - if it trumped it, a band like Low would simply cease to exist.

By "dream" I meant our dream of a band's anti-lizard virtue. When you say that "the group in question is already engaged in an art/commerce equation at least as complex and sophisticated as the "mainstream" one if not more so" you're absolutely right. Their baby trumps our dream.

And by "retreat" I meant a mental retreat of a fan holding up some kind of ideological scorecard (which you of course aren't doing) rather than trying to understand those decisions that put the song in the ad. I really didn't mean an artist's "retreat" from the golden teat or market inevitability or some such thing.

But, you're talking about a more generalized disgust, ie song-in-ad = signal that everything has gone wrong; not disapproval of a particular artist's decisions. And to that feeling, I don't have an answer. I guess I've never really believed in the possibility of another parallel world, myself.

Yr stuff about obsessiveness/other ppl is a VERY BIG THING - I'm almost scared to answer in case I get torn apart by the rest of you!

I don't understand this 'baby trumping dream' stuff above, but surely you don't have to believe that a 'lizard-free parallel world' actually exists in order to find music that implies or represents the imagined existence of one, or that implies non-lizard areas of life in this one? (What I meant by 'non-widgety' above) These are important imaginings. Artefacts can be an awkwardly commercial manifestation of art/idea - but to say that the art/idea is therefore always and inevitably reduced or compromised by that seems needlessly economics-obsessed and faux-logic cynical.

And could ppl aaarrghghg PLEASE try to get past only using Nice Memory Syndrome as way of interpreting the complaint - it's part of it but not all of it.
Unfortunately I'm stuck in that fog of whether the other stuff I'm struggling to clarify is really subtle and difficult, or whether it's just too incoherent to exist atall :( - NEED MORE INPUT!

There are some other ILx regulars/Big Guns who I wish would contribute their take on this stuff: the pinefox, Ned & Tim Finney especially.

Could any North-England ILx'ers please resist from using this unfortunate turn of phrase as a setup line.
Thankyou.

Somewhere along the line we've forgotten that the point of 12-ft lizards is that they REALLY DON'T EXIST. And REALLY DON'T RUN THE WORLD.

these "music in ads" threads can get very exhausting for the Anti camp - one always seems to wind up defending an ideology far more rigid or sentimentalist than one's own, or trying to distinguish one's position from that of the strawman "sellout!"-yellers who are NEVER actually present. i've been persuaded enough by past threads to admit that there IS something very reactionary in my own feelings on the subject, something which doesn't hold up under scrutiny. so on this one i've tried to restrict my arguments to what frustrates me from a struggling artist POV - namely the assumption that licensing music to an ad firm or film or whatever is practically inevitable for "minor talents" trying to make ends meet and that that in itself merits no further discussion. maybe it doesn't - this is all stuff i'm still trying to work out and this probably isn't the best place for it. anyway any mention i've made of compromise is made in this sense - not on the part of the artifact but of its creator(s) - apologies for any confusion there.

Sterling - the lizard bit was me too. "The Man" would have worked just as well. it was a shot at lucid naive which i guess failed.

Sterling I thought 'Lizards' = 'Those Capitalist Bastards' generally, a lack of ILx history on my part.

Tom, yr examples are good and useful, but its.....it's not 'disappointment' with anybody involved in the process as such......it's.......it's......something else.....*sinks to knees and puts head in hands*

I maybe have to let this thread sink into obscurity until I can articulate better what the fuck it is I'm trying to say. A few years might do it. (Further neuronal ear-dribble notwithstanding).

I like hearing songs in advertising. I'm bemused at the attempt of advertisers to link their product with whatever sound-world is implied by "Lust for Life" or "What Do I Get" or "Little Drummer Boy." I like hearing songs get ruined. I like having to constatly rethink my recieved notions of art, capital, and rock music, every time it happens. I like the idea of artists getting scads of money for work they might've done years ago, good for them. I like imagining a world where the Fall is the score to every ad. I like the fact that potential Jaguar owners might be Clash fans (joke's on them both).

(I don't know how many of these I really believe, btw, but I'll go with them for now.)

it just occurred to me that a better example of the situation reversed than songs subverting ads (by accident) might be songs appropriating brands on purpose like V Taylor's Brand New Cadillac or better yet Snoop endorsing Tanqueray etc (gangstas perhaps not being the demographic they'd like to be affiliated with thogh i'm just guessing)

it just occurred to me that a better example of the situation reversed than songs subverting ads (by accident) might be songs appropriating brands on purpose like V Taylor's Brand New Cadillac or better yet Snoop endorsing Tanqueray etc (gangstas perhaps not being the demographic they'd like to be affiliated with thogh i'm just guessing)

Pass the Courvoisier!

"Artists who take money for ads poison and pervert their songs. It reduces them to the level of a jingle, a word that describes the sound of change in your pocket, which is what your songs become. Remember, when you sell your songs for commercials, you are selling your audience as well."

it's hard to even picture him behind the wheel
of some rugged sport utility vehi-kill

even sittin on a phonebook wearin platform shoes
it just clashes with his eyeliner and all that rouge

pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
what do you get for your rock 'n roll dreams
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
s-e-l-l-o-u-t

i hate to beat up on such a petite rock star
i mean so what if he sold out to some foriegn car
he's just a homo sapien like me & you
maybe it was the only way to get his due

pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
have you seen this travesty?
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
s-e-l-l-o-u-t

i hate to begrudge or judge you
but who nudged you into signing away your legacy
do i have to spell out sell out
as i shell out money i dont even have on me
for some brand new s.u.v.
and some used buzzcocks cd..........

ever fallen off the sofa like a lost remote
when whats comin cross the cable hits a sour note?
well thats kinda how it happened with my tv set
im there flickin through the channels and what do i get?

pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
gunnin down the road runnin over me
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
pete shelley in an s.u.v.
s-e-l-l-o-u-t
s-e-l-l-o-u-t
s-e-l-l-o-u-8-1-2

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haha