Taking Sides: Genesis 1970-1977 Vs. Genesis 1978-91

"Genesis ending" has poetic resonance because genesis literally means beginning, do you SEE

If they covered Cole Porter's "Begin the Beguine" it would be yet more poignant.

Trenchant, even

it's nice to see banks' thoughts on a lot of these tracks, particularly things like Stagnation which he obviously liked enough to keep in various 'old medleys' for many many years.

Nice read!

"It’s not like we’re Dave Brubeck trying to do funny time signatures for the sake of it"

lol come on dude

The mention of a new 53-track collection of previously unreleased material had me salivating but in fact this is just the BBC Broadcasts with 11 tracks taken from BBC sessions and a bunch of live stuff which has already been bootlegged. Nothing to see here, move along.

that was a good read - totally agreed on "Duchess" being underrated, it's one of my very favorite Genesis tunes

Banks is definitely right that he's not really given enough credit, the more I go through their work the more I see him as the primary driver of things in the band. there's a reason why Peter and Phil's solo stuff doesn't sound like Genesis (outside of the period where Phil's solo career overlapped). don't agree with him on "After the Ordeal", I love that bit, but I think the truth is Steve was just on a different wavelength than Banks and he just lost the power struggle. I've actually been getting into The Geese and the Ghost by Anthony Phillips and you can definitely tell this was the sound Banks was trying to steer Genesis away from.

I'm sure I've said it before on this thread but Banks's solo début A Curious Feeling is often slept on, it's a gem and contains some of his best ever songwriting. Vocal chores were handled by the late Kim Beacon who was a beautifully expressive singer.

Banks and Rutherford both did solo albums in 1979 because Genesis were on hiatus at the time and they put a lot of the proggier material they had been writing on those. So when it came to writing Duke they were short of material which is one of the reasons Duke turned out as poppy and Phil-heavy as it did.

this reminds me apparently Hackett's solo records within the last 10 years have been pretty good, I might wanna check some of them out

xp Geese & the Ghost is a frustrating listen. I love the guitar interplay, that moody tapestry effect, but it just doesn't go anywhere — you can hear places where Tony or Steve would have added some drama, but the songs all sound unfinished.

yeah it's kind of an "ambient folk" record, if such a thing could exist. if the pieces did go anywhere it would be a very different record. I like to listen to that and The Snow Goose by Camel back to back...both of them are largely instrumental and feel a bit aimless but feature a lot of really great sections. mostly I just like to hear all my goose-themed records at once.

Banks is lucky Duchess got as high up the charts as it did, it's just not hooky enough to be a hit single

Banks and Rutherford both did solo albums in 1979 because Genesis were on hiatus at the time and they put a lot of the proggier material they had been writing on those. So when it came to writing Duke they were short of material which is one of the reasons Duke turned out as poppy and Phil-heavy as it did.

― lord of the rongs (anagram), Thursday, March 23, 2023 11:12 AM (six hours ago)

This makes a lot more sense than what I originally imagined.

A while back, I asked a few friends with a greater Genesis pedigree than me if they could pinpoint what happened in the early-'80s to lead the band to embrace pop songwriting forms. Neither mentioned these solo albums as a reason (nor did they go with my idea that the Steve Howe-esque guitar leads at the 1:03 mark of "Behind The Lines" made them go "Soon, there will be a supergroup called Asia who will sell millions - let's retroactively beat them to the punch!"). One of the Genesis superfans told me "Notice how they equally split their songwriting credits - Phil's ideas start sounding a whole lot better after you begin to imagine the huge payouts that will result with a few hit singles." Or, I guess their accountants can say, it's written in the book.

"this reminds me apparently Hackett's solo records within the last 10 years have been pretty good"

they are alright, but they are very samey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJNHnecsoYs

Cool, I look forward to that.

Some days Phil Collins is my favorite drummer.

classic post btw:

There are many moments in the boxed set docs where Banks says something like, "I was proud of the music I'd written, and Gabriel's vocals messed it up" for things like "Supper's Ready." The Eno bio also mentions Banks being jealous or just generally dickish about Eno's involvement with Lamb.
Sounds like if Banks had always had his way, Genesis records would be little more than bland psuedo-baroque keyboard solos.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:54 AM (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Phil Collins was a pretty good drummer in his prime. But I maintain that his greatest contribution to the drumming world is introducing Chester Muthaflippin Thompson to a wider audience.

I mean. Seriously. This guy. Impeccable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhwjcg6TeO0

I mean... just... the way he extends fills past the bar line and puts the china in there as an accent and and and. It's not weird or unexpected or even all that technically difficult, it's just always, unutterably, perfect. Tasteful. He does exactly what is needed, neither more nor less.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4NNxekrZ0s

Chester is fine, but there's not much of him pre-Phil, is there? A bit of Zappa and Weather Report and that's it. A friend of mine told me a while back he was in Nashville, trying to break into session work, but no one was biting.

Somewhere in my childhood home there's an autographed Chester Thompson promo poster he signed at a drum clinic I saw. I'll actually be back home in a couple of weeks, I should try and find it!

Precisely my point. Chester wasn't on anyone's radar screen as a Drum God until he became the fill-in Phil.

And their partnership was a weird kind of magic. The way Chester plays lines that Phil originated seems effortless, but is actually pretty creative. He's channeling and interpreting at the same time.

Obviously I respect them both. But Chester's task was, in a way, harder. Phil could always just be Phil. He was never challenged or criticised; he was always regarded as the best drummer in any room he entered.

Chester had to play what Phil intended, while also being himself. I find this kinda fascinating.

going with Track of the Tail tonight. god Dance on a Volcano kicks so much ass. on Seconds Out there's this amazing guitar bit during the "better start doing it right" part and I was always disappointed the studio version didn't have it. but now I realize it actually is there, you just can barely hear it because his guitar is turned down so much. what exactly was their problem with him??

oh now I hear the part Banks is referring to in Robbery, Assault, and Battery. whoa it's nuts, no way could you do that live

ok three more things

1) Phil is an amazing prog singer, feel like he could've done Peter's thing (minus some of the outright weird bits) but I don't think Peter could've done Phil's thing

2) Mad Man Moon is crazy underrated, I can't believe it never even got played live

3) Los Endos is a real wacky ending, it puts this in an odd category of albums where one track is way way more intense than anything else on it. the bass I swear is like twice as loud too.

Frogbs otm about Peter vs. Phil. I like them both and it is not a contest, but yes, let's be realistic about their strengths.

PG is a creative genius with a singular vision, plus he is a genuinely weird being, and he is cool as fuck. He does music stuff but only as a means to an end.

PC is just ("just") an extraordinarily gifted and versatile musician. He is skilled but he is not now nor has he ever been cool.

Peter lives in his head and there is no other head like his. He's a bit like Bowie in the sense thag music is just the quickest way to expressing his idiosyncratic thoughts. Phil, on the other hand, lives in music. Breathes it. There was never a path for him other than making sounds.

ok one funny thing with The Geese and the Ghost. when I'm drifting off with it in the background what my brain thinks I'm listening to is Motorpsycho. they do those folky acoustic bits a ton which always burst into some crazy and loud epic. so if I'm passively listening I just keep expecting it to explode and it never does. actually makes me feel anxious.

Phil Collins is such an underrated singer. The early 80s Genesis is worth it for his voice.

Having rediscovered “Don’t Let Him Steal Your Heart Away” and “I Cannot Believe It’s True” earlier today, I am inclined to agree (and ohhhh the EWF horns on the latter, what a great combination that was).

lol found it!

https://i.imgur.com/uD3SwM2.jpg

I heart Chester so much.

Duchess is a great, great song. Would love to hear those conversations between drum machines and synth in the intro (esp on the 3 Sides Live version) go on for much longer.

trivia question for y'all...has any album been reissued under more different names and covers than Genesis's debut?

in 1969 it was released as "From Genesis to Revelation" and sold a mere 600 copies. was then repressed in 1970 and 1972 as the band continuted to record.

in 1974 it was reissued as "In the Beginning" and featured a cover with a snake wrapped around the globe. for...some reason. there was also a version with Gabriel in the flower suit, even though that obviously came years after. at the same time it was being issued in the US with a black cover, similar but not identical to the original.

in 1976 it was reissued worldwide as "Rock Roots", with a record player and some old photos on the cover

"In the Beginning" and "From Genesis to Revelation" were both repressed in '77. new Roger Dean-ish illusatration on the former (this is the one I have), flower Gabriel on the latter. you also had some "From Genesis" copies with the record player cover.

in 1980 it was "The Silent Sun", with a cover of the sun on it. typography is very un-Genesis, so it looks like a bootleg.

1981 it was called "Genesis with Peter Gabriel". obviously Gabriel was long gone by this point.

1981 also saw a Spanish version called "Gigantes Del Pop". seemed to be a series of Greatest Hits-type albums from artists whose early work maybe predated the album era. but not Genesis. it's the same exact album yet again.

"Rock Roots", "In the Beginning" and "The Silent Sun" were also reissued in 1981. "Beginning" again in '84.

in 1986, a new title: "When the Sour Turns to Sweet". sometimes appended with "The First Album". the cover is a spooky abstract painting which does not reflect the music AT ALL. on the cassette it's an even more abstract piece.

1987 it's called "And the Word Was...", with a generic early band photo. this one at least looks like a shitty archival release.

"And the Word Was..." reissued again in '89, this time with the snake/globe cover again.

in 1990, it was reissued as just "Genesis", with a different landscape painting on it. in certain places "The Original Album", with another black cover, but different than the other two. there is also a "straight" reissue of the original "From Genesis to Revelation". "When the Sour Turns to Sweet" is reissued on cassette.

in 1991..."The Compact Collection" with the band photo, yet ANOTHER different black cover of "From Genesis...", then one called "Genesis" with a different photo of Gabriel on it.

1993, three new titles..."1969", "Prime Time" and "In Wonderland". yet again, brand new artwork on all 3. also one called "From Genesis to Revelation...the First Album"...if you count that.

1995, "Rock & Pop Legends", with a cover featuring the Seconds Out band with Chester Thompson

various reissues over the next ten years, including "From Genesis..." with a painting of a pasture on it.

in 2006, yet two more titles: "The Genesis of Genesis". and "The Peter Gabriel Years". at least these have an appropriate band photo on them.

2008, yet another cover for "From Genesis". makes 'em look like a psych band. also "The Early Days of Genesis", which at least contains a second CD of demo tracks. at the same time there is "The Collection" and more reissues of "In the Beginning" and "The Silent Sun". "Beginning" now has a tree on it, "Sun" has an early band photo in color

Since then there have been a number of other permutations, but it looks like the titles and covers are at least the same as previous editions.

Can anyone beat that?

I hope not. I keep looking for it whenever I'm in town and never see it

Amazing performance of "Watcher of the Skies" from The Midnight Special, 1974:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjYEyENr6c8

"The Musical Box" is up there too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIO-3Zj_QfY

listening to Selling England by the Pound tonight and you know what, Tony Banks is right, this album does have a lot of noodling on it. still one of their best but wow I didn't realize it was 53 minutes long

Tony Banks considers 'noodling' whenever someone is singing over his beautiful music

man I remember when I saw my Dad a few years ago and in the car he said "hey let me play something for you I just discovered" and it was "Firth of Fifth". I was like "Dad of course I know what this is". amusing because every part of that should be reversed; he's the guy who loves ELP and grew up in the 70's, I'm the guy who discovers old prog bands through message boards and assumes nobody else has heard of them

Firth Of Fifth is the most wonderful stuff. Tony's opening piano solo is always running through my head, and I love when the full band revisit with Tony on the synths this time. It might be my favourite Genesis song, though the lyrics are absolute dreck.

I know what you mean, I feel the same way about The Cinema Show. I love the fact that the second half of the song is essentially one long Banks keyboard solo. My favourite Genesis song.

Genesis working out the Lamb album - SIX HOURS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM63fEx2UOo

Holy shit, I don't even know what to do with that, just let it play in the background while I clean the house?

In hindsight, it's amazing that 18th-century landowners and architects were so forward-thinking about the needs of 1970s rock bands. Imagine the scene...

Sir Plowedsley Shovell-Smythe: "Prithee, sirrah, shall we emplace a grand hall herein, with bitchin' acouftics?

Lord Chumley-Upon-Ouse: "Nay, whatfoever for?"

Sir Plowedsley Shovell-Smythe: "In faith, I don't know, milord, but mayhaps a kickass drummer - perhaps one of the House of Bonham, or indeed the Collinses of west Londonshire, shall one day record a kickass bafic track, using the staircafe as a refonating chamber?"

Lord Chumley-Upon-Ouse: "Knave, thou dost know nothing of acouftics. Everyone knoweth that the most badass drum tracks shall only be recorded in pristine studios whose walls hath been covered in carpet. Know you nothing of Lord Mick of Fleetwood?"

Sir Plowedsley Shovell-Smythe: "Thou spake true. However, there has been talk of a new sound coming, and it hath been yclept 'gated reverb.' Clearly milord hath not been reading the latest Stone that Rolleth broadsheet that various varlets hath circulated in ye town square."

just clicking around here and there and yeah very interesting stuff, sounds like a lot of Tony trying out different chords or scales on familiar tunes. the more you hear of the guy's process the more it makes sense that he would get really into a purely digital sound. dude just loves to tinker

Yeah I also listened to as much as I needed to. I am a reasonably tolerant fan, but I don't need to spend six hours with Tony's organ

So to speak

I'm genuinely fascinated with how musical ideas gestate and evolve into their fully-formed version, but then I get the chance to watch it or listen to it and get bored quickly. I think professional musicians have a patience I don't have.

and when movies depict it the artist has the whole thing written minus one lyric or one note that's slightly different and their partner suggests making that one little change and BOOM IT'S A HIT

tbf Bill Danoff and Taffy Nivert had "Take Me Home, Country Roads" mostly finished before John Denver touched it

Patience of doing a thing Vs watching somebody doing a thing tbf

true that, but I also remember zoning out during my band's one and only writing session.

"you don't like this riff I just wrote? fuck you, I'll form my own band!"