miranda lambert

HOWEVER! ML offering up a redemption arc song for MW could also be seen as a concerted effort to rescue a favored son while not herself doing much work to bridge any racial gaps in nashville (she's at absolute best stridently apolitical.)

― omar little, Wednesday, March 1, 2023 1:26 PM (six minutes ago)

she loves lgbts and is happy to talk about our rights and freedom! but that doesn't seem to be a third rail in country anymore certainly compared to issues of race or even gender. also her brother is gay

i'm assuming that the redemption arc aspect of this was absolutely part of the appeal -- again we're talking about people (generally speaking) where the idea of sinning, repenting, and being redeemed is foundational to how they view the world. but i also think that can be distinct from the more politicized contemporary idea of "let's take a bite out of cancel culture!" (and prob was in this case)

This was in a hit country song after all:

His old man was a rebel yeller
Bad boy to the bone
He'd say: "Can't trust that other fella."
He'd judge 'em by the tone of their skin
He was raised to think like his Dad
Narrow mind full of hate
On the road to nowhere fast
Till the grace of God got in the way
Then he saw the light an' hit his knees, an' cried, an' said a prayer
Rose up a brand new man
Left the old one right there

ftr I believe Morgan Wallen believes he has repented

i personally think wallen is redeemable. i also don't think his popularity in the face of the controversy is a huge outlier or says anything about country fans specifically. it's easy to believe that morgan wallen fans (or collaborators) are unrepentant culture warriors taking a stand against liberal values, and tho i'm sure those people do exist it's worth remembering that i.e. chris brown has had myriad huge hits in the last decade, that michael jackson's music still exists in the air around us the same way it did three decades ago, that lady gaga's queer liberal fanbase has forgiven her for doing a song w/ r kelly that went "do what you want w/ my body" a decade after he was indicted for having sex w/ a child on video, that kendrick has made it a clear point to speak up for and elevate artists like xxxtentacion & kodak black etc etc

whether he repented in a way that is satisfying to us or has had a legitimate change of heart or has suffered any consequences as a result is a different discussion. it seems like the answer to the first part is... probably no? but maybe it's yes. it's subjective at minimum. the second question is unknowable. the consequences aspect is slippery bcuz we're in an era of music consumption now where there's no barrier between artist & listener and every time we press play on a song or album it's recorded, tabulated & publicized. but certainly institutions did attempt to punish him, or did punish him. how pure those decisions were vs how cynical they were is also another discussion, but he was roundly censured by the country music community up to its highest levels. of course, they've all come back around, but again that's not unusual in the slightest when we're talking about an extremely popular musician w/ a hugely passionate active fanbase. that's the treatment they all get

within a few years there will probably be a country radio hit with lyrics tacitly implying that the gender-traitors are inviting the violence they're on the receiving end of so yeah i guess in that sense the lgbtqs aren't a third rail in country anymore

A little while ago I was trying to think of an R&B equivalent: SZA co-writing a song for Chris Brown, say.

i have nothing to say about this incident or miranda specifically except to add that the song that pop and adult contemporary stations quietly crossed over this past year (i'm guessing it's not a mistake that i never heard them back-announce his name while playing it) was so incredibly unremarkable and generic that it is funny to me that he is such a cause celebre among aggrieved right wingers

within a few years there will probably be a country radio hit with lyrics tacitly implying that the gender-traitors are inviting the violence they're on the receiving end of so yeah i guess in that sense the lgbtqs aren't a third rail in country anymore

― dyl, Wednesday, March 1, 2023 2:25 PM (five minutes ago)

weirdo post...

she loves lgbts and is happy to talk about our rights and freedom! but that doesn't seem to be a third rail in country anymore certainly compared to issues of race or even gender. also her brother is gay

lol I’m definitely not up on all this stuff so thanks for pointing it out!

I generally try to think the best of people I guess, playing a bit of devils advocate to an extent with my post or two up there when discussing possible worst case motives and what not. I think the R. Kelly is a decent comparison though I also think the total lack of apology and redemption and continued vile behavior on his part, coupled with most of the media and other artists completely ignoring it, makes it a lot worse. I do think MW was contrite because he got caught but I also think getting caught doing something can put things in new perspective for the person who is caught. And it can change them.

FWIW, I believe Gaga did address/apologize for the R. Kelly collab, and remove it from new versions of the album.

It’s all kind of unknowable but I do think one has to take him at his word and give him that chance, give him room to return and be a better person.

And that also means you know not turning Miranda Lambert into a grand wizard

If Wallen is turning up on right wing shows bitching about cancel culture then I'll assume his redemption is fake, but that isn't the case afaik

if i weren't a liberal i would think they were the biggest bunch of scolds. cut a guy a freakin' break.

Chlöe has a new single w/Chris Brown, btw... which isn't a Miranda analogy, but it's creating discussion (as you would expect)

I dunno, I think "irredeemable" is strong but I think it's the buoyant go-girl enthusiasm of the tweet that rankles. I didn't know she co-wrote a Wallen song, but I assume lots of people did and it's not like anyone made an issue of it. But the photo plus caption are pretty much social media shark chum, just seems very un-self-aware. Unwoke, you could say.

looool a little racism is cool "as a treat", lest we be considered scolds for saying otherwise

fwiw, I don't think he deserves to have his entire career blown out of existence or anything, it's just so funny to me that merely expressing disappointment in Lambert working with him is somehow being twisted into "turning Lambert into a grand wizard"

Nah I wasn’t referring to anyone here just referring to the tweet calling her pistol klannie which seemed a bit excessive maybe

She's a white lady from Texas, creepin' up on 40, married to a cop. Expectations heretofore may have been a touch unreasonable.

I was wondering if bringing up her marriage would be out of line or not

Well listen as someone with a cop in the family…I can’t dispute that point

J0rdan raised this point above, fwiw

Yeah and...

Her parents met while Bev was attending camp at Southern Methodist University and Rick was an on-campus undercover narcotics officer, and they got together a few years later. Rick is a former Dallas police officer who played in a country-rock group called Contraband in the 1970s. Rick and Bev later became private detectives and even worked on the high-profile case of the impeachment of President Bill Clinton.

Took me 30 seconds to find a facebook post where she used #backtheblue.

is this country liberalism? or regular conservatism that liberal fans project their values onto? I ask because not knowing the culture it really doesn't seem to take much to be considered on the left in this genre (at least the kind that goes through nashville) so this stuff might be compatible with that for all I know

What do you mean by "this"?

the stuff under discussion

Redemption arcs are woven into country and R&B at the most quotidian level: raise hell on Saturday night, atone at Sunday service.

miranda is firmly part of the nucleus of nashville while also existing on the fringes of it, or in conflict w/ it at times. which is one of the reasons she's a great artist, imo. but that tension is more based on aesthetics, or bcuz of gender, than it is for any political reasons that don't directly affect her. i also think she's received a fair share of mainstream press that positions her as an outsider, or country music that you the reader who doesn't listen to country music might like. which i think is all projection & not a narrative she's actively tried to cultivate

part of me wonders i guess, without defending MW at all, at one point do we consider someone beyond the point of being redeemable for this kind of thing, going so far as to suggest those collaborating w/that person are themselves just like that person? i mean he had definitely said that word before! and who knows if getting caught using it was a splash of cold water that woke him up out of being an ignorant piece of shit, or if he's just going thru the motions to save his career and he secretly continues to harbor vile opinions.

The trick and the curse of celebrity is that your actions and your character can disassociate at any time and it's not yours to control. Morgan Wallen the person evolves day to day. It's very possible that he regrets his actions and has learned from them and is redeemable. If he weren't a celebrity then those who encounter him would only know the person he is today. Awareness of the heinous action would recede into the past and only those who were exposed to it at the time would be left to grapple with it, get over it (or not) and assess whether he's overcome his transgressions and is forgivable.

But since he's a celebrity that past action remains heightened. It doesn't get to fade because we can revisit it any time whether we knew it at the time or just heard about it this morning. The pain has the ability to be raw and harsh at any moment, to any person exposed to it. It can't recede so easily.

Like any painful interaction there is "what was intended" vs "what was received" and the former doesn't matter if the latter is acute. Morgan's action will be acute and fresh pain for a lot of people over and over for a long time and that's too bad for him. Oh well. He's hardly canceled - he's got a #1 song! - so he still gets to deal with the fallout from his actions for years to come and that's just the way it is for him.

It is totally disingenuous for another celeb to think they can only engage with the human-scale version of their peer and not need to consider the magnified transgressions of the past which are still front and center in a lot of folks' minds. Time doesn't work the same way here - it doesn't magically heal all wounds because time is loop. The wounds keep reopening and you can't control that. Therefore repentance, forgiveness, and the stink of association are all mixed up like a soup. It's probably not fair but you can't just brush off the past because your buddy has learned and moved on. His actions--and hers--impact so many people in ways they can't control. I can't believe she didn't think collaborating with him wouldn't cause anger and hurt amongst some of her peers and fans. It's callous.

To non-country fans, the n word incident is probably the only thing they know about MW, so it’s unlikely to fade soon. But to people in the country world there’s a whole lot more exposure to him that has nothing to do with the incident. It’s a little someone who only knows Elvis Costello for the Ray Charles thing getting mad at Glen Tilbrook for working with him.

The Costello incident is fascinating because what hurt him personally, according to the (in)famous Greil Marcus interview, is learning how he overheard Michael Jackson, when Costello was recording Imperial Bedroom in the same studio, whisper something like, "Oh! That guy. I don't wanna work near that guy." Costello's brand of music in 1982 was more R&B-adjacent than Morgan Wallen's. He'll never understand how words matter.

Miranda lambert is probably also only hearing one corner of the country music echo chamber and really has no sense of what his rep out there might still be. Maybe she only knows about his charitable efforts and lil durk collab and figured she could safely partner up with him without it being a thing but obv not, she read the situation more superficially than the reality of it might still be.

No offense, but I doubt she's unaware.

As far as Wallen I mean let’s be clear one may accidentally run a stop sign and hit another car but one does not accidentally let that word (hard r) slip out randomly, I mean I hate to even just hear it in any context.

No offense taken at all obv I mean I’m sure she’s aware but maybe not aware of how much it still stings, how the work MW did wasn’t enough. If she is and doesn’t care, well she has it coming and she’ll have to deal with it and learn from it, one hopes.

has what coming? what percentage of her fans are liberal critic types vs. your average country radio listener leaving vitriolic youtube comments about amber heard under mitchell tenpenny's "truth about you" video or who find the opening couplet to brett young's "lady" (i remember when i first heard your heartbeat / it had only been eight weeks) refreshing/moving rather than an instant station-changer

Tbh, I think it's quite possible that said average country music listener has no idea about the Morgan Wallen controversy, or most shit.

I think that description of “average country music listener” is weird.

My point I guess was based upon some notion that this guy is perceived as not having done enough work to redeem himself, and if that was the case and if she didn’t care, then maybe a little pushback would help her see things a little better. I guess where it’s a little murky for me is what the perception of him is within the country music industry, especially for the purposes of this conversation the liberal and/or nonwhite wing of the industry.

The liberal wing of the industry is like Brad Paisley and some songwriters

Luke Dick

you guys are coming up with all these theories to explain the pervasive cross demographic phenomenon that is overlooking problematic shit done by your favorite artists

J0rdan is like the only person making sense in the Morgan Wallen Erotic Racism Fan Fiction thread

Everytime someone gets "cancelled" and then just continues on to massive, arena-filling success — Wallen, R. Kelly, Morrissey, Louis, Chappelle — internet people imagine everyone in that arena is either going through some baroque mental contortions and ethical ROI assessments or they're just thousands of mouth-breathing CHUDs sticking a bayonet in the flesh of cancel culture, when the occams razor solution staring everyone in the face is "90% of people don't care about any of this shit"

^ correct, and that number's probably too low

Since no one's mentioned it, how many of you actually listened to Dangerous at the time? I thought about half the album was terrific; he's one of those country guys whose ballads are more convincing than his rockers even when he comes off as a self-pitying cipher.

and of the 10% who *do* care they don't like being treated as test subjects in someone else's schoolmarm-y performative scolding algorithm so they vote republican.

teacher teacher, morgan got drunk and said the n word! it's right here on my phone! and he's said it before!!!!

I feel like the call-out coming from one of the relatively few Black Nashville artists with any kind of public profile is being a little overlooked. Adia Victoria lives in a city and state where the Legislature spent literal years debating whether to remove a bust of Nathan fuckin Bedford Forrest from the hallway in the state Capitol, and where there’s currently a bill pending to rename a section of a street called John Lewis Way for Donald Trump. She’s not exactly doing performative scolding.

Since no one's mentioned it, how many of you actually listened to Dangerous at the time? I thought about half the album was terrific; he's one of those country guys whose ballads are more convincing than his rockers even when he comes off as a self-pitying cipher.

― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, March 2, 2023 4:22 AM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Tried it. He's got a bit of Church's swagger and similarly floats between classic and modern sounds, but is it me or does he have a smarm to him, whereas Church's schtick is authentic? Don't know if I got all the way through it, tbh. While we're on the music, Adia Victoria's A Southern Gothic is a captivating, haunting record. "Magnolia Blues" has a bit of "Strange Fruit" in it.