when i said that songwriting is a literary as well as a musical art form i meant that in the most literal sense possible. the lyrics are there, and they either work (and elevate the music) and fail (or detract from the music). and what counts as good lyrics is dependent on context, of course.
― treeship., Tuesday, 14 February 2023 16:31 (one year ago) link
i definitely agree with fgti's last point, too. critics are writers. they aren't there to actually pass judgment on a piece of music, they can only tell you how they responded to the music personally and how they think it fits into a larger social, cultural, political, philosophical, whatever picture. anything they observe about the music, the lyrics, whatever is there to contribute to this ultimately subjective picture.
― treeship., Tuesday, 14 February 2023 16:38 (one year ago) link
I think half the time the problem is that critics don’t sit with the music in question long enough to reach a useful or thoughtful view on whether the lyrics work or not - in circumstances where there are many ways in which lyrics can work, as in function, to support the overall effect of the music. It’s easy - and faster, certainly - to treat the lyrics as a separate thing there on the page to be analysed independently from the music, but I think the result is that writers load lots of their explanations for “why this doesn’t click for me” onto the words, whereas in truth they never got to the point of enjoyment of the songs where the lyrics (considered in isolation from the music) could really make much difference.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 14 February 2023 16:40 (one year ago) link
that's fair. i'll bet that happens.
― treeship., Tuesday, 14 February 2023 16:41 (one year ago) link
Yeah, that sounds OTM. I think my specific issue with the Quasi review is that it doesn't seem to be taking the lyrics on their own terms, but rather critiques them for not being what the writer wishes they were: You can’t help but wish Quasi illustrated their nonsensical dreams with more color, or rubbed their eyes harder to produce a clearer vision of the realities they condemn.
― unknown blues singer (morrisp), Tuesday, 14 February 2023 16:50 (one year ago) link
^^^^^ exactly
― a (waterface), Tuesday, 14 February 2023 17:34 (one year ago) link
it’s pretty tempting to use the lyrics to decide if the music is cool or not, if one is concerned about maintaining reputation. They can also be a clue whether the songs grew organically or were punched out under deadline pressure.
― assert (matttkkkk), Tuesday, 14 February 2023 19:31 (one year ago) link
(Barney obviously rises above such questions, at least in the 80s)
― assert (matttkkkk), Tuesday, 14 February 2023 19:32 (one year ago) link
I think half the time the problem is that critics don’t sit with the music in question long enough to reach a useful or thoughtful view on whether the lyrics work or not
this is definitely otm, and a symptom of the imo outmoded notion of "the scoop." The surprise release phenomenon does not really help, either. I don't blame the writers for this, though.
― Paul Ponzi, Tuesday, 14 February 2023 21:11 (one year ago) link
this is in large part why i'm doing slow roll out on the poll, hoping to encourage people to write a bit about what they listen to on their own time. seems to be working i think?
― POLIZISTEN VERSINKEN IM SCHLAMM (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 15 February 2023 06:47 (one year ago) link
Good lyrics work in tandem with music, they will be weakened when it is extracted and printed on a page;
Preposterous. If that were true, then that expensive hardback of Paul McCartney's complete lyrics that made its way into stores last x-mas season would be a waste of money!
― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 15 February 2023 10:33 (one year ago) link
_Good lyrics work in tandem with music, they will be weakened when it is extracted and printed on a page;_Preposterous. If that were true, then that expensive hardback of Paul McCartney's complete lyrics that made its way into stores last x-mas season would be a waste of money!
― Goose Bigelow, Fowl Gigolo (the table is the table), Wednesday, 15 February 2023 12:07 (one year ago) link
Yes table that was the joke :)
― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 15 February 2023 12:29 (one year ago) link
I picked that up while doing the xmas shopping. I soon realized what a trifle it was and returned it. You could say I was a temporary voluptuary.
― maf you one two (maffew12), Wednesday, 15 February 2023 12:42 (one year ago) link
I dunno, feels like this is a trap set by critics themselves, who for decades have been heralding popular musicians as the “true poets” of their times. By setting up the expectation of profundity, particularly within certain song and genre forms, critics essentially created the situation wherein the lyrics of those forms are judged as “poetry,” not as a separate (but equally important and profound) part of song and language tradition/continuum.
― Goose Bigelow, Fowl Gigolo (the table is the table), Tuesday, 14 February 2023 15:21 (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
I can't find it online, but I remember reading an interview with Randy Newman (from the 80s I think) where he made a similar argument to this, took issue with rock critics idea of what constitute good lyrics, I think he mentioned Prince as someone who wrote brilliant lyrics but whose name wouldn't necessarily come up in a rockcrit list of 'great' lyricists alongside people who do the pseudo-poetry thing (though maybe Prince is more recognised as a lyric writer these days?). He also talks about his own approach of writing lyrics as dialogue for a character
― soref, Wednesday, 15 February 2023 12:53 (one year ago) link
yeah, he mentions it in a book of Bill Flanagan's about U2; Flanagan also asks Aimee Mann if most of the great pp lyricists of the 20th century have been Jewish (Hammerstein, Simon, Cohen, Newman, etc.).
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 15 February 2023 12:59 (one year ago) link
someone very important missing from that list
― Paul Ponzi, Wednesday, 15 February 2023 13:27 (one year ago) link
prince is jewish?
― la vie wokisme (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 15 February 2023 13:55 (one year ago) link
no, but I heard his agent is
― Paul Ponzi, Wednesday, 15 February 2023 13:57 (one year ago) link
Terrific: https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/yoko-ono-season-of-glass/
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 19 February 2023 15:17 (one year ago) link
I (genuinely) like that they pushed much of the extended “context setting” to the review’s second half. If you only have a casual interest in Ono & Lennon, you can stop reading at “… the only difference was that people were, momentarily, listening.”
― unknown blues singer (morrisp), Sunday, 19 February 2023 17:41 (one year ago) link
Jack White Posts Tribute to Meg White as World Considers the Viral and Bad White Stripes Take
― ufo, Thursday, 16 March 2023 04:10 (one year ago) link
The internet was a bad idea, guys.
(Seriously, I think Meg is whatever but people have been joking about her being a suck-ass drummer since the day the White Stripes became a thing).
Breaking News: World Rallies to Colin Melody’s Defense After Journalist Tweets He Is Pretentious
― Evans on Hammond (evol j), Thursday, 16 March 2023 04:21 (one year ago) link
viral and bad?
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Thursday, 16 March 2023 11:06 (one year ago) link
Meg's a great drummer and people should be pushing against misogynistic crap wherever they see it
― a (waterface), Thursday, 16 March 2023 14:18 (one year ago) link
bold take in 2023 to argue that misogynist bullshit against Meg White is okay because people have been pulling misogynist bullshit against Meg White for twenty years
Jack's IG thing was weird, but I appreciate him saying something
Karen Elson's response was better "keep my ex husband’s ex wife name out of your f*cking mouth"
Not only is Meg White a fantastic drummer, Jack also said the White Stripes would be nothing without her. To the journalist who dissed her, keep my ex husband’s ex wife name out of your f*cking mouth.(Please and Thank You) https://t.co/qnnxgT3Rxh— Karen Elson (@KarenElson_) March 14, 2023
― Maxmillion D. Boosted (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 16 March 2023 14:20 (one year ago) link
meg>ringo
― ''can be prusuaded to show gayness'' (Austin), Thursday, 16 March 2023 15:04 (one year ago) link
Macca Posts Tribute to Billy Shears as World Considers the Viral and Bad Sgt. Pepper's Take
― INDEPENDENTS DAY BY STEVEN SPILBERG (President Keyes), Thursday, 16 March 2023 15:11 (one year ago) link
meg should finally release her solo album and it should just be 80 minutes of her doing the most sparse, simplest beat ever. no guitars, no vocals, nothing else.
10/10 bnm.
― ''can be prusuaded to show gayness'' (Austin), Thursday, 16 March 2023 15:20 (one year ago) link
Meg White Plays Thomas Brinkmann
(would buy)
― Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 16 March 2023 17:55 (one year ago) link
what is Meg up to? do we know? working an office job? independently wealthy? making music for herself? have they ever said that she just wanted to leave the industry or something?
i have no idea. never cared much for this band ... one of those where i dig everything about them except the music. no slight to her, of course. she obviously rules.
― alpine static, Friday, 17 March 2023 00:18 (one year ago) link
never mind. i just remembered i could Google this, so i did. my bad!
― alpine static, Friday, 17 March 2023 00:20 (one year ago) link
i have no idea. never cared much for this band ... one of those where i dig everything about them except the music. no slight to her, of course. she obviously rules.― alpine static, Thursday, March 16, 2023 5:18 PM
― alpine static, Thursday, March 16, 2023 5:18 PM
very otm for me too (nearly verbatim).
i have no idea what she's up to and think of her as kind of a perfect role model; especially in regards to the shitty criticisms of her style. did she ever say anything in response? i don't remember that she did. kind of passive aggressive non-response of, "well if i suck so much why does seven nation army rock so hard?"
(thread idea: "musicians you love/ride for/defend while actively disliking the music they make")
― ''can be prusuaded to show gayness'' (Austin), Friday, 17 March 2023 00:59 (one year ago) link
Good idea. I thought of a few already but I'll save them for the thread
― Paul Ponzi, Friday, 17 March 2023 01:20 (one year ago) link
thanks for reminding me why I stopped posting here
― Evans on Hammond (evol j), Friday, 17 March 2023 01:21 (one year ago) link
I liked Jack’s IG poem fwiw
― touche pas ma planète (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 17 March 2023 01:39 (one year ago) link
thanks for reminding me why I stopped posting here― Evans on Hammond (evol j), Thursday, March 16, 2023 6:21 PM
― Evans on Hammond (evol j), Thursday, March 16, 2023 6:21 PM
np
― ''can be prusuaded to show gayness'' (Austin), Friday, 17 March 2023 01:54 (one year ago) link
i just thought the headline was very goofy, especially "the viral and bad white stripes take"
― ufo, Friday, 17 March 2023 03:37 (one year ago) link
agreed. don't mean to goof too much about this because it's a pretty fucking daft criticism. like i said, i don't even like the band and it bugs me.
― ''can be prusuaded to show gayness'' (Austin), Friday, 17 March 2023 04:35 (one year ago) link
the "viral and bad" is funny, but the part that made me laugh/cringe most was "as world considers"
― alpine static, Friday, 17 March 2023 05:08 (one year ago) link
the music Jack White has made since the end of The White Stripes is all the evidence you need that Meg was not the problem in that band
― boxedjoy, Friday, 17 March 2023 09:01 (one year ago) link
this x 100000000
― satori enabler (Noodle Vague), Friday, 17 March 2023 09:06 (one year ago) link
There is a little Kevin Shields in the way Tumor manipulates sounds; the way the triggered samples detonate on late-album highlight “Purified by the Fire” recalls MBV’s “Touched.”
Isn't Touched all Colm's work or is my memory failing me? Anyway good review.
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Friday, 17 March 2023 10:24 (one year ago) link
i believe that's the case yeah
― ufo, Friday, 17 March 2023 10:39 (one year ago) link
After 50 years as one of the biggest bands in the world, there’s something charming in the way that U2 keeps acting like they have something to prove.
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 21 March 2023 20:09 (one year ago) link
are you quibbling with rounding 47 up to 50?
― na (NA), Tuesday, 21 March 2023 20:13 (one year ago) link
hey, fake news is fake news.
― ''can be prusuaded to show gayness'' (Austin), Tuesday, 21 March 2023 20:15 (one year ago) link
they were one of the biggest bands in the world in 1976?
― INDEPENDENTS DAY BY STEVEN SPILBERG (President Keyes), Tuesday, 21 March 2023 20:16 (one year ago) link
yep, fake news.
― ''can be prusuaded to show gayness'' (Austin), Tuesday, 21 March 2023 20:16 (one year ago) link
(sorry i'll stop now. the thought of u2 in 1976 on totp has tickled me greatly.)
― ''can be prusuaded to show gayness'' (Austin), Tuesday, 21 March 2023 20:17 (one year ago) link