ftr the youths have a more developed sense of Minor Curiosity than my generation did -- thanks to modes of distribution.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 6 February 2023 22:29 (one year ago) link
yeah, this. in a lot of ways the u.s. was getting more reactionary and hostile, the music business was becoming more neoliberal, and punk rushed in to fill a void for a generation, it was a meaningful identity and then a means of living and was guarded with almost a religious zeal. like everything in america it was shaped by white supremacy. i think albini's set of tics reflect all of that, and also that maybe he's savvy enough to perform for his aging audience, it's probably good for business.
map otm
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 6 February 2023 22:32 (one year ago) link
Punk rock dudes recording sessions of themselvesThey don't give a fuck about anybody else
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 6 February 2023 22:44 (one year ago) link
Yet the refrain would still be LOST WAGES
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 6 February 2023 22:45 (one year ago) link
the thing about his Dan/Boz Scaggs/etc hate is it's just reflexive punk stuff, it's not really more complicated than that. Fuck that music the yuppies like, that kinda thing. It's pretty immune to self-interrogation is you let it bake in too long.
― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Monday, 6 February 2023 22:56 (one year ago) link
^^^ otm
― sleeve, Monday, 6 February 2023 23:01 (one year ago) link
Learn to work the Travis BeanPlay just what I feel
― made a mint from mmm mmm mmm mmm (Eazy), Monday, 6 February 2023 23:10 (one year ago) link
Yeah, as demonstrated, I doubt Albini, smart guy that knows about music, could clearly put into words his hate for Steely Dan without describing something that is not Steely Dan. He hates the *idea* of Steely Dan. It's just punk reactionary goofing.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 6 February 2023 23:14 (one year ago) link
I think you can predict Albini liking or not liking an artist's music on purely ideological grounds. Stevie Wonder fought a valiant struggle to wrestle back rights to his catalog from Motown, thus Albini likes Stevie Wonder. Rush were a bunch of quasi-Ayn Rand-heads so he hates Rush. He flip-flopped on hating Trans Am when they decided not to let their music be used in a commercial. I think he posted something like, "Hey guys, I like Trans Am now!"
Did Steely Dan ever stump for Reagan or anything like that?
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 00:26 (one year ago) link
Weird that this prick hasn’t been cancelled yet
― ian, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 00:59 (one year ago) link
99 new answers
Sixty-Year-Old Man Demonstrates Shitposting Prowess
i mean there are any number of things you can bash this guy for but please stop taking his tossed-off steely dan takes so deeply seriously
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 01:45 (one year ago) link
is the word 'cancel' ironic or not?
― CerebralCaustic, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 01:54 (one year ago) link
do you have special glasses that make 97% of the thread invisible when you post
― sanguisug boggy bogg (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 02:01 (one year ago) link
They're two entities who take recorded sound very seriously, but have entirely opposite philosophies around it; why should this antipathy shock anyone?
― Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 03:42 (one year ago) link
Feel like the whitest music imaginable is the poll that would end ILM and we have to do it.
― Unfairport Convention (PBKR),
why bother? everyone knows it's Pavement.
great posts, map.
― The field divisions are fastened with felicitations. (Deflatormouse), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 08:03 (one year ago) link
i find the idea you can 'cancel' someone to be abhorrent moralistic stone-throwing - sure, if they've done something terrible you can withdraw your custom or attention, but in more ambiguous cases it feels like it isn't even accurate to say everyone (the moralistic 'we') has en masse decided to do so - usually many don't - and i do not wish albini 'cancelled' especially as i rather enjoy a lot of his work, BUT it is clear that his recent spree of atonement and personal growth etc etc has been with rather more in mind than just the edgy art of the 80s. witness the edgy tour diaries of the 80s - yeah he was a silly young man, but if the july 18 entry here doesn't chill your blood then idk: https://web.archive.org/web/20000818044126/http://petdance.com/actionpark/bigblack/tourdiary/ (CW: bad stuff)
now my intention posting that here is not to invite castigation on someone who's clearly not the same person as he was 35 years ago (not to mention living in a world that is not the same as it was 35 years ago), but to add colour to his notion of the redemptive journey. these are the pits from which he rose. they're ugly. he'd definitely agree they're ugly. you may not agree that he has atoned for such things - what are basically self-admitted crimes, even - but let's be clear: if you want to 'cancel' albini, the distance between what he was and what he is must be taken into account. the reason why everyone turned en masse on cornelius wasn't so much what he'd done as a kid way back in the 1980s but the lack of remorse, even the glee in recounting it, and the lack of an apology. it feels to me that albini is legitimately sorry and self-reproachful about his behaviour during those days
that said, having read that a few months ago, i have felt like i'll find it hard to listen to anything he made before shellac, knowing these were some of the thoughts and impulses coursing through his brain in those days - i don't think you can cancel art on any grounds other than aesthetic, but big black is all about the aesthetic of the edgy young man and i personally don't need that in such a concentrated form. shellac onwards, and (some of) his engineering jobs, though? forever.
ofc if you read the above link and are sufficiently repulsed to cast albini out for good, that's your decision. he makes a good case study in forgivability imo, in that his crimes are neither too concrete to be absolutely condemnatory nor trifling enough that castigating him for them looks petty
― imago, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 08:31 (one year ago) link
And it goes both ways — I don't expect some 17-year-old Harry Styles fan to go trawling through Incantation's catalog, or Cecil Taylor's, to find something they like! Why should they?
― but also fuck you (unperson), Monday, 6 February 2023 bookmarkflaglink
Because a 17 year old is often in discovery mode and absorbing all sorts of random things so they absolutely should be listening to some free jazz.
It's a shame that age is used as an excuse not to engage, so it goes the other way too.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 08:39 (one year ago) link
"i think albini's set of tics reflect all of that, and also that maybe he's savvy enough to perform for his aging audience, it's probably good for business."
Performing for an audience and giving them what they want sure is punk tradition. Savvy.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 08:45 (one year ago) link
You don't need to go back to his youth to find some reprehensible shit said by Albini - see: meeting Tyler the Creator/Odd Future less than a decade ago. If people want to take him to task for that, right on. The reaction to a tossed off tweet about not liking Steely Dan has been silly, though.
― papal hotwife (milo z), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 09:09 (one year ago) link
His tweets on music does make it look like the contrition over past deeds as a bit of an act. Still has that edgelord in him.
And when people say sorry and mean it they also quieten down quite a bit. Highly suspect behaviour.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 09:45 (one year ago) link
some steely dan fans are pissed around here it seems
― CerebralCaustic, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 10:38 (one year ago) link
some steely dan fans are pissed around here it seems― CerebralCaustic, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 9:38 PM (one hour ago)
― CerebralCaustic, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 9:38 PM (one hour ago)
Literally came back to this board just to see this happening.Steely Dan fucking sux, this board has a hard-on for them (except 40% of it according to this old poll).
― raven, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 11:47 (one year ago) link
Nick Cave: I just think artists should freely express themselves without a filter, even if there are consequences, and even if it’s a little messy sometimes
ilx: die in a fire you old bastard
Steve Albini: I have no respect for jazz, techno, rap, or most of the other musical art forms coincidentally created by black people. My hobbies are playing poker and starting arguments with people on twitter, where my persona is that of a grouchy, obstinate misanthrope. Please enjoy my band, “Rapeman”
ilx: what a mensch!
― Paul Ponzi, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 12:15 (one year ago) link
omg
― And Your Borad Can Zing (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 12:21 (one year ago) link
Tbf Cave is 4-5 years older than Albini
― Master of Treacle, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 12:38 (one year ago) link
"Literally came back to this board just to see this happening."
The board is a dictatorship not a democracy. The ilx police will be at your door soon.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 12:59 (one year ago) link
(except 40% of it according to this old poll).
29/100 = 29% iirc
― Unfairport Convention (PBKR), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 13:01 (one year ago) link
Dated a girl in the mid-80s who got free tickets from work to see the Red Hot Chili Peppers at the Vic. We came for opener Trouble Funk, who absolutely slayed. Started before house lights went down, bounced non-stop for an hour. We bolted two bars into the yabba dabba doo. https://t.co/9qARZIPRIp— steve albini (@electricalWSOP) September 27, 2021
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 13:09 (one year ago) link
Ugh
― And Your Borad Can Zing (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 13:24 (one year ago) link
In the UK the ageing soulboy white rock critic's African-American band of choice circa 1985 (or so I've been led to believe)
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 13:40 (one year ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtV_nQKhkdY
― a (waterface), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 13:59 (one year ago) link
tbf Trouble Funk ruled and always ruled.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 14:17 (one year ago) link
I will now always think of RHCP as “the yabba dabba doo,” thanks based Albini
― The Triumphant Return of Bernard & Stubbs (Raymond Cummings), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 14:27 (one year ago) link
(Regarding Nick Cave - nothing against him but I haven’t gotten into his work or read much about him, so no real opinion or investment in how his views have or haven’t evolved over time.)
― The Triumphant Return of Bernard & Stubbs (Raymond Cummings), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 14:31 (one year ago) link
fwiw Cave has become a boring old cancel culture whinger, "you can't say anything without the woke snowflake police throwing you in jail merely for being Australian" etc. etc.
― Critique of the Goth Programme (Neil S), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 14:36 (one year ago) link
Haha, RC, me too. A+, waterface
― And Your Borad Can Zing (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 14:56 (one year ago) link
I just want to show respect for Neanderthal's new screen name. respect
― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 15:18 (one year ago) link
the reason why everyone turned en masse on cornelius wasn't so much what he'd done as a kid way back in the 1980s but the lack of remorse, even the glee in recounting it, and the lack of an apology.
iirc wasn't his response more "yes I was involved in some bullying but a lot of what I said in that interview was made up", which idk, kinda jives with the whole counterculture element that was going on in the 90s. think people are finding it easy to turn on him cuz he hasn't really done much in the last 20 years
― frogbs, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 15:28 (one year ago) link
I'm sorry but this:Critique of the Goth Programme (Neil S) at 8:36 7 Feb 23fwiw Cave has become a boring old cancel culture whinger, "you can't say anything without the woke snowflake police throwing you in jail merely for being Australian" etc. etc.is bullshit and a massive oversimplification of a man who's past decade's work is not obsessed with "cancel culture" but mourning the loss of his childrenhttps://www.theredhandfiles.com/hallmark-card-hippie/
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 15:34 (one year ago) link
nick cave is the hip bono
― CerebralCaustic, Tuesday, 7 February 2023 15:37 (one year ago) link
i like you less every time you post
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 15:38 (one year ago) link
is this our first AI poster
― sanguisug boggy bogg (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 15:39 (one year ago) link
that's a truly magnificent response upper miss but it's also fair to say that Cave's parsing of this present moment in which people are reflecting on how their speech might impact others is essentially "but people must be FREE TO SPEAK, EVEN FORBIDDEN THOUGHTS!" free-speech-broism. it's reductive to say that's his whole deal now, but he does rehearse it a bit, and as tediously as, say, John Cleese.
― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 15:40 (one year ago) link
also, for the love of God, and of all His children, and of His grand creation, its splendor, its radiance, its indescribable sweetness -- in the name, I say, of all that is good and holy in this world: new board description
― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 15:42 (one year ago) link
no i get it JCLC - i'm not saying that i don't have problems with stuff he says, but people read one thing and all of a sudden the perception is that he's vampire bill maher, like i read the red hand files quite often and he's not always going on about that stuff at all.
but i know the stuff you're talking about and he can be lazy as a thinker for sure. but i think it's unfair to characterize as the sum total of what he's about. (and obviously dealing with that much grief is never completely dignified for anyone, it's a messy thing)
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 15:46 (one year ago) link
or like i dunno sometimes when you're in a dark place it's also easy to start caring about other stuff to avoid thinking about the real stuff
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 15:47 (one year ago) link
Maybe it’s not a giant shock to see a white Australian dude slide rightward in his 60s?
― but also fuck you (unperson), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 15:56 (one year ago) link
and obviously dealing with that much grief is never completely dignified for anyone, it's a messy thing
otm
― sanguisug boggy bogg (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 15:57 (one year ago) link
that Cave piece you posted is really good UMS. He's similar to Albini in that he seems willing to talk about stuff in an open way and reflect on past mistakes and how his attitudes have changed, and that's good even if I may not personally agree with everything they say
― Critique of the Goth Programme (Neil S), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 16:04 (one year ago) link
I've read Cave's comments on cancel culture before. No, I don't like them, but I think he's reacting more to the toxic underbelly of the internet than what most people would consider a good example of cancel culture.
Forget the name, having a system of calling bad actors out that actually sees material consequences is an absolute necessity. and despite many wailings about its destructive harms, we still haven't achieved it. powerful people feel mild discomfort, sometimes even surge in popularity due to reactionary folk who view holding people accountable as an unpardonable sin. the people who wind up suffering actual material harm from organized mobs on the internet are the same people 'cancel culture' is meant to empower. Women, minorities, LGBTQ+ folk peppered with death threats, doxxing, etc. it still happens.
so on that end, no, I don't have a lot of patience for people whinging about 'cancel culture'.
What I suspect Cave is referring to, otoh, is not that (or at least not primarily that), but some of its less defensible usages. People who go crate digging into people's very distant pasts (i.e. teenage years) to find mild offenses to encourage people not to support them now, regardless of whether they're the same person or have even proactively owned up to and disavowed these views. and then there's the purity policing, like people swooping in to say "you saw THAT movie? but it had a key grip that was anti-semitic" as some people do.
but tbh, I haven't really seen many instances (outside of Doja Cat) where such campaigns gained any real traction, and even that one fizzled out fast. just view it as "toxic people looking for cheap likes and retweets". it's definitely not the norm, nor does it typically result in real harm. so using it as the face of cancel culture and objecting due to things like that is sort of bad faith.
but he also seems to take issue with the idea of people feeling as if they can speak in any manner possible to somebody because they are 'right', and tbh i'm a lot more sympathetic there. I've saw someone who was severely depressed about the state of the world and made the unfortunate statement "we deserve this" when one of the many bad things happened in America last year, and being told "fuck you, kill yourself if you feel that badly, leave everyone else out of it", and this being cheered on as an appropriate response. this affects not celebrities but everyday people.
I don't believe in tone policing, as harsh reactions to things I said in my 20s were how I learned my words hurt people and that I needed to consider what I was saying or even believing. but some of the toxicity is well out of bounds in proportion to what the other person said, and it's not coming from strangers, but people who know each other IRL where the shit is likely to be heavily internalized.
I can definitely see how grief would perhaps play into these views as well.
― sanguisug boggy bogg (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 7 February 2023 16:39 (one year ago) link