I have had it up to here waiting for the Beatles catalogue to be remastered

Ray composed a lot of those songs on the piano, and might not have had specific guitar parts in mind; I assume Dave came up with, for example, the arpeggio opening of "Tired of Waiting for You" if Ray is playing the power chords underneath.

Re: "I Feel Fine":

Lennon wrote the song's guitar riff while the Beatles were in the studio recording "Eight Days a Week" in October 1964

I think your other examples were contributed by Harrison (although I'd say the opening to "She Said She Said" is a generic guitar lead, not a hook per se).

I can’t think of any Davies examples off the top of my head, but despite being a fan, I haven’t read up much on the Kinks.

Re: George, in the Scorsese documentary on Harrison, Paul pointed out that George came up with the main guitar figure for “And I Love Her,” saying, “That’s the song!” Yeah, so, maybe you should’ve cut him in on the publishing. I mean, John and Paul would each get far more credit for songs that they barely contributed to.

Of course the assignation of songwriting credits was far more relaxed (when it wasn't corrupt) in the 60s.
I'm trying to think of which rock band starting giving all members equal songwriting credit on all songs - earliest that comes to mind is Black Sabbath?

The Doors did that on their first three albums

Right! But I've just looked at a long list of 60s bands and can't think of any who would have done this before they did.

Like I'm imagining Ray Davies' head exploding at 75% of his publishing on "You Really Got Me" going to his brother, Quaife and Avory.

Didn't Booker T. and the M.G.s credit all core members for songwriting?

FWIW, a while back, it was revealed that regardless of the songwriting credits, every original song recorded by the Band had two values: the writer's share and the publisher's share. With the publisher's share, they always split it five ways (minus what was given to the publisher to administer the publishing). In a way it was a not-bad way to address the contributions others might make to a song without being the actual credited songwriter.

anyone ever tells me Ringo's a crap drummer again I'm gonna send them to Rain/Paperback Writer

Somebody telling you this is a sure sign they know fuck-all about rock'n'roll

“Ringo=crap drummer” was like patient zero of the now-common practice of flooding the zone with disinformation.

Like I'm imagining Ray Davies' head exploding at 75% of his publishing on "You Really Got Me" going to his brother, Quaife and Avory.

― Halfway there but for you, Monday, October 31, 2022 3:42 PM (fifty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Ray's wife at the time Rasa contributed significantly to his peak-era songs, and remains uncredited:

https://andrewhickey.info/2018/01/28/did-a-teenage-girl-make-the-kinks-great/

I read that, I found it dubious.

...and as I suggested, if it were true, you'll have a long wait for Ray Davies to share credit.

Guy so cheap that he protested the medics cutting his trousers when he got shot in NOLA, or so the story goes.

Rasa’s harmony vocals really do add a ton to “Waterloo Sunset” especially- for years I thought it was all Dave!- so I am inclined to extrapolate that maybe she did help edit or inspire or contribute to Ray’s songwriting in general but yeah, how to be sure.

Didn't Booker T. and the M.G.s credit all core members for songwriting?

― bookmarkflaglink (Darin), Monday, October 31, 2022 4:01 PM (forty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

[Booker T.] Jones considers a quote from legendary white MGs guitarist Steve Cropper that he says he first read in Hughes’s [2015] book [Country Soul]. Discussing King’s presence in Memphis in the weeks leading up to the assassination — helping to organize marches to support the city’s 1,300 striking black sanitation workers — Cropper blames the movement leader for stirring up trouble where he believed none had existed before: “I don’t think anywhere in the universe was as racially cool as Memphis was until Martin Luther King showed up.”

Jones recalls the anger, betrayal, and dismay he felt when he read Cropper’s words in Country Soul. “It hit me hard,” he writes. “This was the guitar player in my band speaking! How could I continue to knowingly collaborate with anyone who supported the mindset that made Dr. King’s murder possible?”

Jones discusses other issues with Cropper and the whites who ran Stax through much of its heyday, in particular the fact that Cropper was allowed to participate in—and profit from—the music publishing side of the business while Jones was not. Beginning with the MGs’ crossover smash “Green Onions” in 1962, both men wrote or co-wrote some of the label’s biggest hits over the next several years, working with a handful of collaborators; of the two, only Cropper saw royalties.

so I am inclined to extrapolate that maybe she did help edit or inspire or contribute to Ray’s songwriting in general but yeah, how to be sure.

As Hickey points out, much of the evidence is circumstantial...but Ray's songwriting, in Hickey's words, "fell off a cliff" after Rasa left him. I can think of a total of 10 post-'71 Kinks songs -- and that's stretching it -- that could stand alongside his peak '60s output.

re. "I Feel Fine" I don't know if this is how the recording goes, but in at least one of the live performances in the "Anthology" video it's John playing the opening riff (on acoustic guitar, too).

So I’m among the people who like this new mix a lot, with the exception of SSSS which sounds like sonic sabotage basically BUT I had been listening to it only on headphones until now and listening to it on a (good) sound system I must say that 1) SSSS is not problematic that way and 2) the remixes album sounds HUGE : I danced to it !

I have only listened on phones as well — looking forward to getting back home where I can blast it through my stereo. What you say is very welcome news (and also lines up with what others have said)

at some point last year, I read somewhere (can't remember, but it was reputable) that "She Said She Said" is the only recording where the Threetles are J, G and R: Paul wasn't there and George played bass…otherwise, Paul was said to be the only one who was present for every single session in which the four were recording as a band…but that sounds like him on the two "she said" session cuts on CD 3…

the story according to paul is that he walked out during recording after an argument and he thinks george ended up playing bass on the final version, but he did at least play on some earlier takes. whether or not it is george on the final version is a bit disputed too, as it apparently doesn't match up with the recording logs or something so there's all sorts of weird theories and arguments over whether it sounds like paul or george on the final version.

Have we got a general songwriting royalties/publishing thread?

George also claims it was his idea to change the rhythm for the "When I was a boy" section.

I can kind of, just about, get my head around them being able to isolate drums, guitar, bass and vocals - although obviously I have no idea how it's possibly done - but to go so far as to isolate finger clicks in amongst the harmony vocals is just absolutely astonishing. Pure witchcraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsYxTuX5wC4

witchcraft you can carry in your pocket:
the Moises app let's you isolate drum tracks from any song... can we use its power for good?

Looking forward to the next evolution of this in a decade’s time: all the Beatles albums re-issued yet again to great fanfare, but this time you can create your own AI supported mix.

Die-hard purists will still stan for the mono mixes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEvGRsvZOxA

I like Parlogram Auctions - usually I can't stand any music YouTubers especially those who put themselves in the thumbnails, but fortunately he really knows his stuff and has a good presenting style

"There's a Place", i think, is the most underrated song on Please Please Me. facebook sucks badly but at least it knows enough to show me beatles trivia about 40x a day, and today i saw lennon's open letter to todd rundgren, responding to the latter's harsh words about him in a recent issue. in it, he compliments Rundgren's "I Saw the Light" while suggesting that it borrows a bit, melodically, from "There's a Place". eh, maybe a bit, but no more so than the beatles bit any number of songs throughout their career.

anyway, some days i'll take "There's a Place" over anything else off the debut

open letter *in melody maker*, i meant to add

Yeah 'There's a Place' is one of my favourite early Beatles tunes, just loads of great little melodic bits in there.

Am assuming Lennon was referring to the "In your eyes" at the end of the chorus in 'I Saw the Light' sounding like the "And it's my mind" part of TAP? There is a similarity but yeah it doesn't strike me as particularly egregious.

Harsh words?

“I Saw The Light” always reminded me of “You Won’t See Me” (“It was late last night” / “When I call you up”)

xpost as usual, he only "berated" people he cared about - see also his letter to Linda Mac.

("only" is doing some heavy lifting there, I should clarify "by post/letter")

there's a place is like not a second time; exquisite, sad little minor key songs tucked away at the ends of these albums, underappreciated.

That horrible middle-register piano solo in "Not A Second Time" sounds like the Muzak version of the song. It may be my least favorite moment in the entire Beatles oeuvre, mainly because it happens in an otherwise great song.

I always loved "There's A Place," though.

Harsh words?

yeah. i'm getting all this from this quora.com post:

Rundgren, Melody Maker, sometime in 1974:

"John Lennon ain't no revolutionary. He's a fucking idiot, man. Shouting about revolution and acting like an ass. It just makes people feel uncomfortable."

"All he really wants to do is get attention for himself, and if revolution gets him that attention, he'll get attention through revolution. Hitting a waitress in the Troubador. What kind of revolution is that?"

"He's an important figure, sure. But so was Richard Nixon. Nixon was just like another generation's John Lennon. Someone who represented all sorts of ideals, but was out for himself underneath it all."

"Like the Beatles had no style other than being the Beatles. So the Nazz used to do, like heavy rock, and also these light, pretty ballads with complex ballads."

and then lennon's response:

AN OPENED LETTUCE TO SODD RUNTLESTUNTLE. (from dr. winston o'boogie)

Couldn't resist adding a few "islands of truth" of my own, in answer to Turd Runtgreen's howl of hate (pain.)

Dear Todd,

I like you, and some of your work, including "I Saw The Light", which is not unlike "There's A Place" (Beatles), melody wise.

1) I have never claimed to be a revolutionary. But I am allowed to sing about anything I want! Right?

2) I never hit a waitress in the Troubador, I did act like an ass, I was too drunk. So shoot me!

3) I guess we're all looking for attention Rodd, do you really think I don't know how to get it, without "revolution?" I could dye my hair green and pink for a start!

4) I don't represent anyone but my SELF. It sounds like I represented something to you, or you wouldn't be so violent towards me. (Your dad perhaps?)

5) Yes Dodd, violence comes in mysterious ways its wonders to perform, including verbal. But you'd know that kind of mind game, wouldn't you? Of course you would.

6) So the Nazz used to do "like heavy rock" then SUDDENLY a "light pretty ballad". How original!

7) Which gets me to the Beatles, "who had no other style than being the Beatles"!! That covers a lot of style man, including your own, TO DATE.....

Yes Godd, the one thing those Beatles did was to affect PEOPLES' MINDS. Maybe you need another fix?

Somebody played me your rock and roll pussy song, but I never noticed anything. I think that the real reason you're mad at me is cause I didn't know who you were at the Rainbow (L.A.) Remember that time you came in with Wolfman Jack? When I found out later, I was cursing cause I wanted to tell you how good you were. (I'd heard you on the radio.)

Anyway, However much you hurt me darling; I'll always love you,

J. L.

So shoot me!

Oof.

Oh, that's our John!

it's something else. "AN OPENED LETTUCE TO SODD RUNTLESTUNTLE. (from dr. winston o'boogie)" is an extremely disarming way to start a letter

However much you hurt me darling; I'll always love you,

standard way to start a salad

“I Saw The Light” always reminded me of “You Won’t See Me” (“It was late last night” / “When I call you up”)

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, 11 January 2023 11:38 (four hours ago) link

Same here -- this seems to me like such an obvious similarity to call out that that bit of Lennon's letter read kind of like "I like you, and some of your work, including 'Ice Ice Baby', which is not unlike 'We Will Rock You' (Queen)"

some context to this, in 1976 Todd's Faithful album contained renditions of "Rain" and "Strawberry Fields" which are so note perfect that you could easily mistake them for the originals. so Todd clearly got what made the Beatles tick better than most people did and I guess he may have considered there to be a rivalry there. he made a whole album with Utopia mocking them a few years after that. but deep down you know he loved them.

this was also happening in late 1974, which i believe was near the end of the Lost Weekend period, which might explain a lot

I love There's A Place. The lyric stands apart from the Lennon/McCartney songbook of the time: too "There's a place where I can go … and it's my mind". I don't want to overstate things and say it's one step from Tomorrow Never Knows or something, but that inward focus has always stuck out for me.

DId he happen to say anything about Harry Nilsson?

A few months later, Brian Wilson would record In My Room, a sort of cousin.

X-post

There's a place where I can go … and it's my mind".

Yep. A lyric replete with casual wisdom.