I have had it up to here waiting for the Beatles catalogue to be remastered

otmfm

Yeah the vocals on the new Eleanor Rigby sound bloody terrible; far too isolated from the rest of the mix; like they recorded him down a well.

I don’t hear much mention of the fact that the mix was done using “de-mixed” stems, i.e. “AI” algorithms applied to the existing mixes to recreate what the isolated bass, drums etc must have sounded like, then mixed into a new stereo spread. It’s impressive and convincing, but maybe that’s why it sounds a little emptier to some?

xxxx - post

Yeah - that was what I was inarticulately trying to say as well up thread. The new stereo mix slows things down and detracts from the overall feel of the album.

I do wonder if some of the odd choices regarding Paul's vocals are because Giles Martin has to work by committee. I did see in an interview that Paul gets a say (so does Ringo, but I'm not sure he took an active interest) and had some suggestions.

Overall, it's a curate's egg of a mix. George comes out of it particularly well with all 3 of his songs sounding great. Paul's songs have great instrumentation but the vocal is sometimes odd or disconnected, and John's IOS and SSSS are interesting but ultimately unsatisfactory.

I think the fact that the most significant outtakes — non-giggly-stoners “And Your Bird Can Sing,” electric “Got To Get You Into My Life” — are largely mixed to mimic the original mono mixes speaks volumes.

I don’t know if you can compare this new mix to the mono mix. It’s meant to update the stereo mix, after all, and I think as such it does its job with the one notable exception.

The mono mix is a different beast altogether, and I like it that way.

New Taxman is fantastic. The rest still sounds uncanny valley to me.

Would love to hear a de-mixed Pet Sounds, every mix of that has sounded mushy to me.

mushiness on pet sounds seems like part of the point; i don't know how I'd feel about the tracks being sharper.

That backing track of "She Said She Said" kinda sounds like a precursor to Beefheart's Magic Band doing "Kandy Korn", with those interlaced guitars and Ringo's weird-ass drum fills

On a few tracks — especially “For No One” — it sounds like the mix was done on headphones, with the vocals WAY out front

Wouldn’t be surprised, I read Giles saying somewhere that one of his specific goals with the mix was to create something that caters to modern youth habits of mainly listening to stuff on headphones

Fwiw I like the new mixes, with the exception of She Said She Said which is a fucking catastrophe

I noticed the guitar at the start of paperback writer has a lot less oomph in the remix over the mono version.

Overall I don’t really like the new space in the recordings - it’s a psychedelic drone record, the compression and closeness is part of the point! — but otoh I absolutely love the sound of Ringo’s drums being louder than usual

I mean I always loved Ringo’s style but hearing the drums with this clarity is bringing me closer to hero worship territory

I am old enough to remember mastering specifically for laptop speakers

In the 90s every studio had those cube monitors that were supposed to be like car speakers

Do we now need to revisit every mix with some off-brand earbuds

Gah

man anyone ever tells me Ringo's a crap drummer again I'm gonna send them to Rain/Paperback Writer

He's always been the most interesting to me of the four players to focus on.

really feeling Paul on the new mixes/outtakes

Paul kills me. He's the best overall musician of the group. He showed up for most every song recorded by at least two of the others. Had the best solo career.

And yet, he's still the Jay Leno of the band. There's a lesson there somewhere, I'm just not sure what it is.

^^^ lol best summation of McC's career ever

Hahaha!

I like how you get to hear two bits of Beatle lore, the yes/no vibrato on 'Eleanor Rigby' situation, and poor George getting gyp for not ever having song titles.

at some point last year, I read somewhere (can't remember, but it was reputable) that "She Said She Said" is the only recording where the Threetles are J, G and R: Paul wasn't there and George played bass…otherwise, Paul was said to be the only one who was present for every single session in which the four were recording as a band…but that sounds like him on the two "she said" session cuts on CD 3…

and something also occurred to me listening to this yesterday: it's my understanding (please tarfumes or somebody else let us know if this is not so) that when you hear, say the figure that opens "Ticket to Ride" or "She Said She Said" or "And I love her" or scores of other beatles cuts where you are a hearing a composed part that has been essential to our comprehension and enjoyment of those cuts for 50-60 years, J or P did not say to George "okay, you need to play this part of this song like this, this is how I wrote this, play it like this"; George came up with that shit in almost every instance! I daresay in a very significant sense the person who contributes the opening figure of "I Feel Fine" deserves a songwriting credit, and thus there should have been "Lennon/McCartney/Harrison" credits.

again, the case of these four people is unusual, in that if there is a signature guitar part in a song from a peer group, then it's contributed by the composer who's a guitar player, Townshend, Richard, Page. Can Tarfumes come up with an example of Dave Davies contributing a composed part to a Kinks tune that everyone agrees is a key component of the song, but of course Ray is the credited songwriter?

Ray composed a lot of those songs on the piano, and might not have had specific guitar parts in mind; I assume Dave came up with, for example, the arpeggio opening of "Tired of Waiting for You" if Ray is playing the power chords underneath.

Re: "I Feel Fine":

Lennon wrote the song's guitar riff while the Beatles were in the studio recording "Eight Days a Week" in October 1964

I think your other examples were contributed by Harrison (although I'd say the opening to "She Said She Said" is a generic guitar lead, not a hook per se).

I can’t think of any Davies examples off the top of my head, but despite being a fan, I haven’t read up much on the Kinks.

Re: George, in the Scorsese documentary on Harrison, Paul pointed out that George came up with the main guitar figure for “And I Love Her,” saying, “That’s the song!” Yeah, so, maybe you should’ve cut him in on the publishing. I mean, John and Paul would each get far more credit for songs that they barely contributed to.

Of course the assignation of songwriting credits was far more relaxed (when it wasn't corrupt) in the 60s.
I'm trying to think of which rock band starting giving all members equal songwriting credit on all songs - earliest that comes to mind is Black Sabbath?

The Doors did that on their first three albums

Right! But I've just looked at a long list of 60s bands and can't think of any who would have done this before they did.

Like I'm imagining Ray Davies' head exploding at 75% of his publishing on "You Really Got Me" going to his brother, Quaife and Avory.

Didn't Booker T. and the M.G.s credit all core members for songwriting?

FWIW, a while back, it was revealed that regardless of the songwriting credits, every original song recorded by the Band had two values: the writer's share and the publisher's share. With the publisher's share, they always split it five ways (minus what was given to the publisher to administer the publishing). In a way it was a not-bad way to address the contributions others might make to a song without being the actual credited songwriter.

anyone ever tells me Ringo's a crap drummer again I'm gonna send them to Rain/Paperback Writer

Somebody telling you this is a sure sign they know fuck-all about rock'n'roll

“Ringo=crap drummer” was like patient zero of the now-common practice of flooding the zone with disinformation.

Like I'm imagining Ray Davies' head exploding at 75% of his publishing on "You Really Got Me" going to his brother, Quaife and Avory.

― Halfway there but for you, Monday, October 31, 2022 3:42 PM (fifty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Ray's wife at the time Rasa contributed significantly to his peak-era songs, and remains uncredited:

https://andrewhickey.info/2018/01/28/did-a-teenage-girl-make-the-kinks-great/

I read that, I found it dubious.

...and as I suggested, if it were true, you'll have a long wait for Ray Davies to share credit.

Guy so cheap that he protested the medics cutting his trousers when he got shot in NOLA, or so the story goes.

Rasa’s harmony vocals really do add a ton to “Waterloo Sunset” especially- for years I thought it was all Dave!- so I am inclined to extrapolate that maybe she did help edit or inspire or contribute to Ray’s songwriting in general but yeah, how to be sure.

Didn't Booker T. and the M.G.s credit all core members for songwriting?

― bookmarkflaglink (Darin), Monday, October 31, 2022 4:01 PM (forty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

[Booker T.] Jones considers a quote from legendary white MGs guitarist Steve Cropper that he says he first read in Hughes’s [2015] book [Country Soul]. Discussing King’s presence in Memphis in the weeks leading up to the assassination — helping to organize marches to support the city’s 1,300 striking black sanitation workers — Cropper blames the movement leader for stirring up trouble where he believed none had existed before: “I don’t think anywhere in the universe was as racially cool as Memphis was until Martin Luther King showed up.”

Jones recalls the anger, betrayal, and dismay he felt when he read Cropper’s words in Country Soul. “It hit me hard,” he writes. “This was the guitar player in my band speaking! How could I continue to knowingly collaborate with anyone who supported the mindset that made Dr. King’s murder possible?”

Jones discusses other issues with Cropper and the whites who ran Stax through much of its heyday, in particular the fact that Cropper was allowed to participate in—and profit from—the music publishing side of the business while Jones was not. Beginning with the MGs’ crossover smash “Green Onions” in 1962, both men wrote or co-wrote some of the label’s biggest hits over the next several years, working with a handful of collaborators; of the two, only Cropper saw royalties.

so I am inclined to extrapolate that maybe she did help edit or inspire or contribute to Ray’s songwriting in general but yeah, how to be sure.

As Hickey points out, much of the evidence is circumstantial...but Ray's songwriting, in Hickey's words, "fell off a cliff" after Rasa left him. I can think of a total of 10 post-'71 Kinks songs -- and that's stretching it -- that could stand alongside his peak '60s output.

re. "I Feel Fine" I don't know if this is how the recording goes, but in at least one of the live performances in the "Anthology" video it's John playing the opening riff (on acoustic guitar, too).

So I’m among the people who like this new mix a lot, with the exception of SSSS which sounds like sonic sabotage basically BUT I had been listening to it only on headphones until now and listening to it on a (good) sound system I must say that 1) SSSS is not problematic that way and 2) the remixes album sounds HUGE : I danced to it !

I have only listened on phones as well — looking forward to getting back home where I can blast it through my stereo. What you say is very welcome news (and also lines up with what others have said)

at some point last year, I read somewhere (can't remember, but it was reputable) that "She Said She Said" is the only recording where the Threetles are J, G and R: Paul wasn't there and George played bass…otherwise, Paul was said to be the only one who was present for every single session in which the four were recording as a band…but that sounds like him on the two "she said" session cuts on CD 3…

the story according to paul is that he walked out during recording after an argument and he thinks george ended up playing bass on the final version, but he did at least play on some earlier takes. whether or not it is george on the final version is a bit disputed too, as it apparently doesn't match up with the recording logs or something so there's all sorts of weird theories and arguments over whether it sounds like paul or george on the final version.

Have we got a general songwriting royalties/publishing thread?

George also claims it was his idea to change the rhythm for the "When I was a boy" section.

I can kind of, just about, get my head around them being able to isolate drums, guitar, bass and vocals - although obviously I have no idea how it's possibly done - but to go so far as to isolate finger clicks in amongst the harmony vocals is just absolutely astonishing. Pure witchcraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsYxTuX5wC4

witchcraft you can carry in your pocket:
the Moises app let's you isolate drum tracks from any song... can we use its power for good?

Looking forward to the next evolution of this in a decade’s time: all the Beatles albums re-issued yet again to great fanfare, but this time you can create your own AI supported mix.

Die-hard purists will still stan for the mono mixes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEvGRsvZOxA

I like Parlogram Auctions - usually I can't stand any music YouTubers especially those who put themselves in the thumbnails, but fortunately he really knows his stuff and has a good presenting style