Taylor Swift - Midnights

There's this ASMR-ness to most everything he does which I really do not like

Omg you're right! This explains so much. I'm one of those people who hates ASMR, like whatever it's supposed to do to people, it does the opposite to me.

Beautifully put, as always. And this hits on my feelings for the album as well, i def respond to it on the songwriting level

and in light of folklore/evermore these feel very much somehow in that zone, without being the same or even referential

xpost

Thanks.

I forgot to add to the end of the first paragraph (hence it trailing off) that I think one of the complicating factors with Taylor's writing is that often the songs that don't feel very reflective of her songwriting craft are also ones which are very obviously autobiographical - e.g. "I Forgot That You Existed" (the upshot synthesising these qualities is that these songs tend to make her seem quite shallow).

I can't help hearing "Midnight Rain" as a "slowed + reverb" version of "All You Have to Do Is Stay" (one of my favorite 1989 songs), and it's not a pleasant effect.

Tim, what's your least favorite Swift album?

Probably the debut, even though a decent chunk of the songs on it are all-time for me (e.g. "Tim McGraw", "Stay Beautiful", "Mary's Song", "Our Song", "Invisible") and as good as anything she ever did later - but as a collection of songs it now feels unformed at times.

It probably took Folklore and Evermore for me to feel completely good about the overall direction Swift's career had taken post-Red, even though the three albums in between are all excellent in different ways - but the subsequent albums allowed me to view them as part of an ongoing conversation rather than State of the Union addresses where I have to ask "does this album capture everything (or the most in relative terms) that I love about this artist?". Midnights is close enough to Evermore both stylistically (in terms of songwriting, not sonics) and timing-wise that I've been able to skip over that interim step of measuring it against some idealised ultimate Taylor album.

So maybe the real answer is that I no longer conceive of any of them in those terms.

Gosh, I don’t know how you find the songwriting similar to Evermore… that’s just remarkable to me

Well there are some clear differences which I have spelt out in some (you might even say excruciating) detail in posts above, but they're also clearly products of the same songwriter with the same general approach. Once you strip away the arrangement choices there's not a huge amount separating "You're On Your Own, Kid" from "Long Story Short" or "Maroon" from "Coney Island" or "Mastermind" from "Gold Rush".

I guess I’m just not as perceptive a listener, I don’t hear the similarities between those pairs of songs…

Told y'all it was fatphobic. And now... It's gone.

https://www.seventeen.com/celebrity/music/a41780539/taylor-swift-removes-fat-scale-anti-hero/

As someone who struggles with his weight/size, it's a relatable scene. Those who were complaining about it would do well to consider that other people's experiences are different from their own and those people should be free to represent that in their art. However, the edit only removes the brief shot of the scale with the word "FAT" on it. Taking that out doesn't change the content of the scene at all. The way I see it, the complainers didn't get what they wanted and the right-wing "cancel culture" crybabies get something new to whine about. Well done!

now Taylor's going to have to remove all those neuroableist lyrics about being "insane" and whatnot

I need to listen through a couple more times before firming up by opinion but this is the first Swift album that has left me cold and felt rather staid. On nearly every track I am reminded of and can identify a clear antecedent in her catalogue from the run since 1989.

A few posts that resonated with me:

This to me after three passes sounds like her most enervated release

― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, October 21, 2022 7:51 AM (six days ago) bookmarkflaglink

I’m finding this a little…er…monotonous, particularly the plodding midsection.

― monotony, Saturday, October 22, 2022 6:09 AM (five days ago) bookmarkflaglink

The one-producer/one-sound approach here is an idea that I support in theory, but in this case I think she'd have been better off with more/different collaborators.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Monday, October 24, 2022 11:01 AM (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink

this is the first taylor swift album to leave me feeling nothing. aside from boredom i guess. it’s not only the production here that feels stale, but the songs just feel mapped along the contours of older, better songs. there’s several songs out of the first handful where i keep expecting her to break into the chorus melody of “i think he knows.”

― J0rdan S., Tuesday, October 25, 2022 8:39 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Midnights is close enough to Evermore both stylistically (in terms of songwriting, not sonics)

― Tim F, Wednesday, October 26, 2022 11:15 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

'folklore' is such an amazing album

However, the edit only removes the brief shot of the scale with the word "FAT" on it. Taking that out doesn't change the content of the scene at all.

that particular bit seemed to be what attracted criticism in particular but as i've said before i don't really understand the criticisms i've seen because it's presenting the whole bit as the unhealthy influence of evil taylor, not an endorsement of fat = bad.

the scene didn't need to have that detail to achieve what it wanted though so removing it is no big deal if it makes people happy i guess

Once I watched the scene in question it didn’t strike me as fatphobic per se, but perhaps unnecessarily confronting for people who have been subject to that - so yeah I think it was the right call to just take it out.

Perhaps a more wishy washy position than current public debates allow but I guess here we are (I also always felt roughly the same way about the “I’ll tell mine that you’re gay” from the original “Picture to Burn” - a better lyric than its replacement, but sensible to replace).

I gave this a listen while cooking dinner... I'd previously peeked in to hear Aaron's tracks but today I listened in full

I really really like Jack as a producer in general, but not-so-much on this. I found myself wanting to take his bass pads away. They're on everything. No song is given the chance to be buoyed aloft by a normal slurpy bouncy bass line, it's just all pads. There is very little high-frequency content, too... I kept wishing every snare and hat was louder, that there was something going on up there

Bf was less interested in the production and said "I struggle with enjoying Taylor's songs because they always come off as so autobiographical, and I don't find myself caring about her personally, so they're not particularly interesting to me". I kinda get it... there is something tawdry or self-pornographing about writing songs of such specificity (instead of universality), it feels less like she's killing me softly with her song and more like her songs are written in collaboration with People magazine

That said I loved a lot of lyrical moments. I wish this amazing stanza-- "Did you hear my covert narcissism / I disguise as altruism / Like some kind of congressman / Tale as old as time"-- was awarded a worthwhile rejoinder

Yeah – beyond just thinking the lyrics are not very good on this album, I also feel like she doesn’t “sell” the personal stuff in a way that seems like SHE even cares about it… it feels like she’s just sort of going through the motions.

Like, the first song is all about how people keep asking when she’s gonna marry her boyfriend… is that really happening(?) I guess it must be, if she’s singing about it… but it definitely doesn’t hit like songs on previous albums dealing with the same themes. And I find it hard to care, especially coming after all the exquisite songs on Evermore that went to such other places with the lyrics.

Listening now. This is my first Taylor Swift album listening experience.

i dunno, i feel like she’s of course tugging at autobiographical threads & mining those feelings but my impression is she’s writing them into new stories and wearing different shoes, like whatifs and thought exercises

maybe that’s why i feel more generous?
just because it’s all “i feel” stuff doesn’t necessarily mean it’s pure autobiography

she got pretty good at spreading her wings into fiction on the last couple of albums, i prefer thinking that midnights is part of that

Like, the first song is all about how people keep asking when she’s gonna marry her boyfriend… is that really happening(?)

her boyfriend gets asked it a lot in interviews yeah

VegemiteGrrl otm

I roll my eyes when journalists and the artists themselves allude to autobiography. Like VegemiteGrrl, I assume most writing consists of what-ifs.

She did introduce the album as “the stories of thirteen sleepless nights scattered throughout my life”… but I think it’s cool if you’re able to hear the songs a different way.

(not that imagining them to be fictional would really help for me)

i think the rerelease of stuff like the 10-minute version of “all too well” also helped put everyone back into the autobiography mindset

So many TS lyrics seem like they're based on scenarios out of movies though

I find her lyrics to be kind of impressionistic, I don't even really think of them as telling a story per se

least fave thing about taylor swift (including during superfan era c. speak now) has always been that she thinks her lyrics are autobiographical

This discussion reminds me of the several times now that songwriters have been audibly taken aback when Marc Maron assumes all of their songs are autobiographical and thier response has basically been some variation of, "of course not, why would you assume so?".

I would actually love to hear Taylor Swift on WTF -- she's never done it, has she?

I don't believe she has, could be interesting, although I fear 40 minutes of Marc being all defensive about why he never listened to her music.

I always have held that "autobiographical lyrics" tend to end up being 'untrue', insofar as they're a. attempting to assert a point-of-view (i.e. projecting), b. the 'truth' gets bent out of necessity of creating poetry

On the other hand, lyrics that exist entirely within the realm of fiction (and/or the abstract) have a greater likelihood of hitting upon truths both broad and personal

To make my case for Taylor being awesome I played bf my favourite tracks from folklore and evermore last night and he walked away begrudging but convinced, yay

q: was one of them "ivy"

I have more than once been blindsided when lyrics/writing I assumed were fictional, metaphorical, or otherwise written at a remove turned out to be autobiographical. Anyway, pretty sure Taylor iced a dude and HAIM helped her cover it up.

xpost q was one of them illicit affair

least fave thing about taylor swift (including during superfan era c. speak now) artists has always been that they she think their lyrics are autobiographical

― difficult listening hour,

relistened to Evermore last night. insanely good record. I can't help but think the production's 'modernity' is hurting it, not because its Objectionable in any real way and more bc acoustic guitar & piano have all of these Worthy associations w folk music, 70s AOR, Joni Mitchell, etc. In other words, easily translates as "singer songwriter seriousness." Whereas the light touch pop production doesn't have those associations

I totally hear the repetitiveness that Tim F is getting at in this -- the tunneling feeling. It's kind of unsatisfying in a weird way, like you want the songs to be somewhat more conventional. But I do think it makes the structures of this album more, not less, interesting

I can't help but think the production's 'modernity' is hurting it

This is referring to the new one, obv

xp no I don't think so? I love "Ivy" so much tho

illicit affairs is one of my favorites, i love the sneaky quiet build into that chorus - repeat it twice, hits like a brick then boom, out, done. it’s like a heist of feels!

also invisible string which adheres to brad’s theory that she should always write songs abt colors

one of my students wrote a fantastic essay about "ivy"

Some days Taylor’s finest song.

ivy is beautiful it is true

One of the upshots of Folklore and Evermore’s focus on telling stories about others is that you can hear Taylor really thinking about how to tell a complete, self-contained narrative within the constraints of the song format. “Ivy” for example is very effective at evoking the basic contours of an archetypal love triangle situation but very economically: “so tell me to run, or dare to sit and watch what will become / and drink my husband’s wine” - that final line telling so much about the state of the marriage with a single detail.

By contrast. when Taylor relies on her own life to fill in the blanks it can allow her to become a bit lazy at times (only at times) - I feel like a song like “Lavender Haze” is a bit weak in part because its narrative implicitly relies on what “we” already know about Taylor’s life to enable us to make sense of it (it’s also just one of the less interesting songs on the album) - so in some ways there is less “at stake” in the songwriting.

This is a good piece:

https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2022/10/taylor-swift-midnights-jack-antonoff-criticism/671911/

Yeah even if you think the album has problems and Antonoff is one of them, he's there because she wants him to be. Blaming him for anything is falling into "TS can't fail, she can only be failed" thinking.

also invisible string which adheres to brad’s theory that she should always write songs abt colors

Hahaha this is so true