pitchfork is dumb (#34985859340293849494 in a series.)

went through a little 'exile in guyville' phase recently but LOL @ ranking it above 'nevermind'

'american water' above any pavement album (also no 'wowee zowee') is kinda crazy imo. DB is one of my fav song writers ever, but the SJ albums are all kinda uneven imho. the pavement albums are just perfect front to back

122. Roni Size / Reprazent: New Forms (1997)

hell yeah

idk i think all the pavement albums are kinda inconsistent and chaotic but that's also supposed to be part of the appeal

but yeah american water being above crooked rain is pretty weird

None more so than Wowee Zowee, which is a sprawling masterpiece of chaos.

Sebadoh albums make Pavement look super consistent by comparison though...

'crooked rain' is completely solid

I dunno, Range Life is a great song but it is a bit of a gimmick. And that fake jazz song is kinda cringe.

the problem with 'american water' is nothing else comes close to 'smith and jones' and 'random rules'. since those are 2 of the best songs of all time, it's a steep drop-off right at the beginning

crooked rain is the most consistent pavement album but it still has one goofy aside in "5-4=unity" and i do not care about "hit the plane down" at all

'american water' above any pavement album (also no 'wowee zowee') is kinda crazy imo. DB is one of my fav song writers ever, but the SJ albums are all kinda uneven imho. the pavement albums are just perfect front to back

― flopson

idk part of Pavement's charm for me is their insistence on shaggy-ass experiments that are best skippable and at worst active irritants; it's why I rank WZ above the rest. I couldn't imagine Pavement without them.

Pavement could make puzzling choices over what to put on albums and what to leave off; their B-sides were often the equal or better of their album cuts. I'm thinking of Strings of Nashville in particular.

i resent the idea that it's ludicrous to rank exile over nevermind, it's a lot better (but they're both good unlike pavement for example)

Tbh agree, EiG is a much better record—

Pollard is a better songwriter and an infinitely better lyricist/poet than Berman or Malkmus could ever hope to be.

this claim is false metal incarnate

also false maths

i can see people ranking American Water above CR CR. WZ is better tho

*the whole album is catchy--lyrics, Malkmus shredding, the drums. you can literally sing the whole album, the lyrics are so good etc
*CR has Newark Wilder and Hit the Plane--now if they had put All My Friends on there, who knows? Or Raft?

i love newark wilder lol

it’s a brand new era! it feels great!

That's one way Pavement remind me of REM. Feels like everyone has a different favorite REM record--kinda similar with Pavement. Probably mostly Wowee Zowee but I bet after that there's a lotta variety. BTW has there been a pavement album poll?

ah yes found it. interesting. I'd probably rank WZ S&E (American Water) CRCR BTC TT

i think the highest highs are on crooked rain, and it also sticks together best as an album qua album imo

hit the plane down and 5-4 are oddities that come with the slacker territory, but both are better than brinx job

hahaha we agree to disagree but i think that's what interesting about the band--tough to pick a definitive rant

I sometimes say to others 'well I do like some Pavement, Wowee Zowee say', but last time I listened to it I turned it off pretty quickly so I'm not sure now.

The liberals say they like them but I know that they don't.

I've never heard Terror Twilight, maybe that's the ticket

Sebadoh albums make Pavement look super consistent by comparison though...

III or Smash Your Head really should qualify for these lists – but like a few other major indie bands of the day (Unrest; the aforementioned RTX) Sebadoh seems largely ignored/forgotten now (Bakesale did make the ‘99 list, fwiw)

Man Smash your Head was so huge in my day

just a massive record. same with III

God Imperial by Unrest, too!

_Pollard is a better songwriter and an infinitely better lyricist/poet than Berman or Malkmus could ever hope to be.
_


this claim is false metal incarnate

In this house we believe Pavement suck ass

i'm not from around here, so afaik pavement and pollard suck.

(don't lose your sense of humor)

funny that whiney brought up lambchop the other day bc i heard their (masterful, peerless, crushingly gorgeous and strange) new record today and i think kurt wagner is my preferred indie rock guy among these dudes, lyrically, musically, etc.

but berman was an incredible writer

i personally don't get a transgressive thrill out of dissing someone who was good tho

pollard responsible for some of the funniest indie rock lyrics of all time ("shit yeah it's cool") but i don't think he's on the level of either malkmus or berman

In the actual 90s I always regarded Sebadoh as the quintessential “indie rock” band. Like if there was a Mount Rushmore of “indie” it would have been Sebadoh, Sonic Youth, GbV and Pavement. And if you can grant my metaphor some latitude, then add Built to Spill.

They wrote the genre's titular jam!

Sebadoh III would surely be in my top '90s records. It has all the lo-fi charm of Lou's earlier releases, and hints of the full-on noise pop they'd pursue later as a full band on the likes of Smash Yr Head. As an album it's all over the place but I love every minute. Hugely important to the lo-fi bedroom pop scene (the Shrimper label et al) and more importantly, to me as a depresso teenager.

Interestingly, I recently learned Domino was founded to release a Sebadoh record, like an early '90s version of Blast First, hoovering up the best unsigned bands from across the Atlantic. Of course now they're more associated with their UK guitar band signings of the oughts (Franz Ferdinand, Arctic Monkeys).

Pgwp otm

This thread has derailed in the best possible way into a '90s American indie thread, which tbh is pretty apposite for what p4k used to be

Speaking of Liz Phair, I saw her on a billboard today, some fashion brand. So I guess Liz Phair is ... mainstream?

I have so much to say about 90s American indie that I have no idea where to start so I won't say anything.

...except just this one thing: the best 90s American indie album of all time is Swirlies – They Spent Their Wild Youthful Days In The Glittering World Of The Salons

i personally don't get a transgressive thrill out of dissing someone who was good tho

pollard responsible for some of the funniest indie rock lyrics of all time ("shit yeah it's cool") but i don't think he's on the level of either malkmus or berman

I feel the exact opposite. Never got the 'Robert Pollard is such a songwriting genius he could toss off a hit in his sleep but chooses not to' hype.

I mean, he DID try on Hold on Hope, and that was awful.

Pollard's wordplay is like his collage art. It sounds like he is narrating an experimental comic. I love that about it.

lip 1ol, I never got into GBV but ended up seeing them during a festival this summer and a friend who was definitely a 90s indie rock dude was explaining "he's just written so many songs!"

the show was fine but I wasn't about to run home and work my way through the discography

Evan's description rings true

if anything seeing gbv live (more than once) soured me on them

love the good records from the '90s and '00s tho. i made a mix of essential gbv jams for my car in college and it was my favorite cd to blast around the neighborhood. ooohhh yeahhhh i'm going to drive my car

Calling it now that self-titled Liz Phair places in their 2000s list -- the one they gave a 1.4 or something.