*than
― broccoli rabe thomas (the table is the table), Thursday, 29 September 2022 12:11 (one year ago) link
"Fuck and Run" gets more media attention than, say, "Divorce Song" because it's more sexually frank.
― Chris L, Thursday, 29 September 2022 12:19 (one year ago) link
Pavement could certainly be raggedy and loose, but Malkmus also had that arch, literary quality that I think gave them a bit more cultural cachet.
I don't think this is incorrect, but I also read this as Modest Mouse = community college vs Pavement = Ivy League, and viewed through that lens, we might have expected that history would favor Pavement.
For whatever it's worth, I prefer Brock as a lyricist
― Paul Ponzi, Thursday, 29 September 2022 12:37 (one year ago) link
Wonder how close I'll Be There For You was to getting on the tracks list. If you're throwing in Celine, Hold On, Gin Blossoms, etc, it's totally in that ballpark. Hootie prob got a few votes as well.
― Position Position, Thursday, 29 September 2022 12:59 (one year ago) link
I'm not super familiar with MM, but they seem morose while Pavement seems fun.
― i need to put some clouds behind the reaper (PBKR), Thursday, 29 September 2022 13:00 (one year ago) link
gin blossoms track is one of the great fake replacements songs not made by the goo goo dolls, it does not belong with that crew imo
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Thursday, 29 September 2022 13:30 (one year ago) link
“bands only influenced by the replacements breaking through to radio” is one of my favorite ‘90s phenoms
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Thursday, 29 September 2022 13:32 (one year ago) link
xxp yeah lots of MM music is dark & upsetting songs about addiction, sickness, death, etc, while Pavement have easygoing songs about haircuts, gold soundz, etc. I like MM plenty but Pavement are definitely a more "pleasant" listen in most cases
― nobody like my rap (One Eye Open), Thursday, 29 September 2022 13:36 (one year ago) link
Westerburg wrote the first Goo Goo Dolls I heard on college radio.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 29 September 2022 13:37 (one year ago) link
Yeah the overall vibe too despite the subject matter - MM often bursting with intense nervous angst that you don't find with Pavement even when they're being wild.
― Evan, Thursday, 29 September 2022 14:02 (one year ago) link
I think an original p4k reader would be most surprised by the absence of Bonnie "Prince" Billy, the Dismemberment Plan, Low, Sunny Day Real Estate, and maybe Superchunk and Royal Trux.
― “uhh”—like, this is an insane oatmeal raisin cookie “uhh” (President Keyes), Thursday, 29 September 2022 14:39 (one year ago) link
Wrong type of pop
"Two Princes" inexplicably overlooked. Tbh I'd listen to "Don't Drink the Water" before a lot of these.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Thursday, 29 September 2022 14:40 (one year ago) link
I made this 90s albums list in 2003; not sure what I'd list now but I'd stand by that top 4: 90s albums list I just put together today
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Thursday, 29 September 2022 14:44 (one year ago) link
did emergency & i not make the albums list? sheesh
― comedy khadafi (voodoo chili), Thursday, 29 September 2022 14:46 (one year ago) link
xp I noticed an explosion of sincere love for "Hey Jealousy" since early 2000s -- a lot of it from ILM but also elsewhere.
xp My impression of Neutral Milk was starting as a small drop whose wave never ended. They were canonized pretty quickly in Spin's decade list 4-5 months before the 90s ended, kind of unexpectedly since they did not appear in their 1998 albums list only a few months prior. So i always thought of them as cultish with many cult members that just happen to be music writers.
― billstevejim, Thursday, 29 September 2022 14:48 (one year ago) link
Yeah I mean I said they were comparatively ignored in 98 in the sense of "compared to their latter acclaim" not "compared to my noise gigs of the same era". I don't really see what is dated about the album's strengths, though, and am not sure placing at #31 even indicates a huge decline.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Thursday, 29 September 2022 14:56 (one year ago) link
Royal TruxSadly, they didn’t even make the ‘99 list… pretty crazy oversight, imo
― "Cool ranch dressing!" (morrisp), Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:05 (one year ago) link
Well I played a bit of their Music Battle game. Apparently, the Marshall Mathers LP is a 90s album.
― MarkoP, Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:11 (one year ago) link
It would be weird (to me) if Low end up a canonized 2010s band. And repeating myself but: Bonnie Prince Billy is on the songs list
― rob, Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:24 (one year ago) link
Did "Slack Motherfucker" not make it?
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:24 (one year ago) link
"No One Needs to Know" is a lot better than "Man I Feel Like a Woman" imo. As is Ricochet's "Daddy's Money".
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:25 (one year ago) link
xxpost I was only talking albums. I thought I See a Darkness was indie canon.
― “uhh”—like, this is an insane oatmeal raisin cookie “uhh” (President Keyes), Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:29 (one year ago) link
maybe he got vote split? I certainly wouldn't pick that album as my one Oldham pick
― rob, Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:33 (one year ago) link
Modest Mouse = community college vs Pavement = Ivy League
I spent a lot of time in rural parts of michigan and arizona and the pacific northwest so MM feels super familiar to me - dirtbaggy guys who are interesting but probably got made fun of for getting too fancy or acting too smart growing up and have a secret hair metal past before they got into punk that they're sort of ashamed of and if they show up at your party they might kinda be on meth but are still cool but you worry they're going to never leave.
I didn't know anyone who gave off pavement vibes until I was in college
― joygoat, Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:46 (one year ago) link
Genuinely curious what Pavement vibes are and what they have to do with the Ivy League. I definitely never went to an Ivy or even a private educational institution but I never thought of them as particularly academic or elite.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:53 (one year ago) link
CMJ vibes?
― mh, Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:54 (one year ago) link
Tbh I thought of them as incompetent morons for a long time; it kept me from getting into them.xp
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:55 (one year ago) link
why would you think that?
― "Cool ranch dressing!" (morrisp), Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:58 (one year ago) link
Oh yeah I get the campus radio association - but the best-known local campus station is connected to a university they used to call "Last Chance U" (my alma mater incidentally). Is campus radio actually associated with more elite schools?xp
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:59 (one year ago) link
Pavement came across as aloof and were lyrically abstract. They would drop references to John Ashbery and whatnot. Maybe too shy and goofy for the Ivy League, though Malkmus looks like he could've been on a rowing team.
― “uhh”—like, this is an insane oatmeal raisin cookie “uhh” (President Keyes), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:01 (one year ago) link
xp I don't buy the "ivy league" line, but the sphere of people around college radio definitely were more likely to be into Pavement imo
― mh, Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:01 (one year ago) link
Bodyguard Soundtrack = professor with tenure
― hi hole im dad (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:05 (one year ago) link
Malkmus went to UVA--def Iva league vibes there
― a (waterface), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:13 (one year ago) link
Ivy
college radio embraced both Pavement and MM
― a (waterface), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:14 (one year ago) link
Pavement is for the children imo
― sloop johnnin' skater (geoffreyess), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:19 (one year ago) link
Or in my experience, rather
joygoat's post very interesting & otm. Never thought to compare them on that basis before but definitely some class stuff going on between the cultural/critical perception of MM & Pavement.
The "lyrically aloof & abstract" thing is interesting, I feel like that comes up with Pavement a lot as a signifier of their supposed ivy league preppy academic image, Malkmus making references to this or that writer, the references always being described as being "sly", etc. While at the same time Isaac Brock's lyrics during the same years were pretty fuckin aloof and knotty and abstract. But when Brock was screaming about getting coated in molasses and getting ripped apart by dogs in outer space or whatever, something about his presentation made ppl think "this guy is scary and nuts" instead of "this guy is an interesting writer". Whereas Malkmus singing very similar lines, many critics were like "what a wry game of signifiers this postmodern lyricist is playing"
― nobody like my rap (One Eye Open), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:29 (one year ago) link
ONE WEEK TO GO
― The Triumphant Return of Bernard & Stubbs (Raymond Cummings), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:29 (one year ago) link
Oh sorry I thought this was the Pavement thread lol
― The Triumphant Return of Bernard & Stubbs (Raymond Cummings), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:30 (one year ago) link
Whereas Malkmus singing very similar lines, many critics were like "what a wry game of signifiers this postmodern lyricist is playing"
Only one of'em got a New Yorker review/profile in 1997 where Ashbery got mentioned.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:31 (one year ago) link
Meanwhile Malkmus was saying, "we're a Fall rip-off band."
― Chris L, Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:34 (one year ago) link
But when Brock was screaming about getting coated in molasses and getting ripped apart by dogs in outer space or whatever, something about his presentation made ppl think "this guy is scary and nuts" instead of "this guy is an interesting writer"
I dunno, I think Brock's outlook is scary and nuts and don't see too much similar in their styles
MM:
Here's the man with teeth like God's shoeshineHe sparkles, shimmers, shinesLet's all have another Orange JuliusThick syrup standing in linesThe malls are the soon-to-be ghost townsWell, so long, farewell, goodbye
vsPavement
Cherish your memorized weaknessFashioned from a manifestoLady, I am no Futurist, I'm my only critic, ITrolls in the glen are consorting againThe liberals say they don't exist, but I know that they do
Reinforce your literal assHit it on the first or second passFrozen images, respected fewType slowly
― a (waterface), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:37 (one year ago) link
"Reinforce your literal ass"
haha, I never knew that was the line
― "Cool ranch dressing!" (morrisp), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:38 (one year ago) link
I don't see much aloof in Brock's lyrics there, pretty straightforward
― a (waterface), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:38 (one year ago) link
"God's shoeshine" could maybe be aloof, but if you take that apart the image doesn't really mean anything.
― a (waterface), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:39 (one year ago) link
― "Cool ranch dressing!" (morrisp),
he's so good at coming up with these shrugged-off maxims
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:40 (one year ago) link
clunky
I'm on my way to God, don't knowMy brain's the burger and my heart's the coal
I'm trying to get my head clearI push things out through my mouth, I get refilled through my earsI get refilled through my earsI get refilled through my earsI'm on my way to God, don't know or don't careMy brain's the weak heart and my heart's the long stairs
vs not clunky--much more abstract (and yeah kinda Ashbery ish). Don't think Malkmus would have gone for a weak metaphor like that last MM line, which again if you take apart doesn't really mean anything
You better find your way outYou better learn how to runYou better walk awayAnd leave the angles for the shillsWell, I've been thinking for daysAbout the means and the waysThat I could hate all I touchI know you're my ladyBut I could trickle, I could floodA voice coach taught me to singHe couldn't teach me to loveAll the above
― a (waterface), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:42 (one year ago) link
So did Dave Matthews
― “uhh”—like, this is an insane oatmeal raisin cookie “uhh” (President Keyes), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:44 (one year ago) link
with Matthews I get Ashbery vibes too -- Melvin Ashbury.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 29 September 2022 16:45 (one year ago) link