pitchfork is dumb (#34985859340293849494 in a series.)

MM are “raggedy” but have always been pretty intense, and not really “fun” or anthemic (Float On notwithstanding). Heck, Built to Spill is also “raggedy,” but they don’t have Pavement’s other qualities… it’s not really a diss or negative judgment, just sort of a basic reality that not many bands have songs like Pavement. (Of course, the break up/reunion cycle no doubt helps too.)

I don’t know what I’m missing but that Lauryn Hill album doesn’t do anything for me.

― ✖✖✖ (Moka),

Me neither but I'm through fighting consensus. It's a good enough album that needed to happen in 1998.

Morrisp, frogsb and jaymc all otm with their takes on Modest Mouse.

It's hard for me to look at Lonesome Crowded West rationally because it was such an important record for me as a teenager. I still think it's one of the best 90s indie guitar records.

I guess it's a slight consolation that the Moon and Antarctica placed pretty highly on Pitchfork's 2000s list (sixth). But that list is probably due a revisionist take soon...

Agree it's been sad to see MM in decline since the mid-2000s. I really haven't cared for them since Good News, and even then I was starting to grow tired.

Pavement definitely did have better songs overall and a great run of albums. Wowee Zowee is my pick over Crooked Rain. Always loved it even when the critics hated it, although it has had a major reversal in critical fortunes in the decades since its release.

Built to Spill's Keep it Like a Secret is masterfully arranged, not ragged at all

we were dead was better than good news (though by no means great) but then they took 8 years to make the next one and it was disastrous

they never quite had the same critical cachet as say, pavement, & even pavement's has gone down a bit compared to a decade ago. 'pretty good indie rock' is no longer good enough to do really well in one of these lists (except for liz phair i guess but i don't really get that level of acclaim for her)

looking forward to the eventual p4k 00s list embarrassing ilm by correctly having kylie's fever place at all, unlike our list from a few years ago

70s albums next surely

looking forward to the eventual p4k 00s list embarrassing ilm by correctly having kylie's fever place at all, unlike our list from a few years ago

― ufo

That would be rad.

I don't see Arcade Fire staying at no.2 on the next p4k list...

Do DMB make an appearance at all?

I do share the views upthread that this doesn't go deep enough into the 90s and include at least a handful of outliers you wouldn't expect there, which to me is always a big thrill of looking through lists like this. You find new shit you didn't know before.

But even in the overground, missing off something like Suede's debut is a huge error. It played a big part in turning the guitar-based narrative away from grunge and onto something completely different, at least outside the US. It's a really important album. And I don't expect anyone who made this list to have been there at the time, but at least do some fucking research. If you're doing something about the decade in music, you need markers in there that show off the narrative ebb and flow. Instead we got the Cranberries.

But they opened for Suede -- all you need to know.

suede have never had that much critical cachet outside the uk and apparently still don't.

don't get the complaint about 'lack of depth', for one of these lists to really have the room to dig deep into real obscurities it either has to be much more limited in breadth than this one (though there are still blind spots as pointed out - metal, big beat, etc.) or take a deliberately contrarian approach like the lists fact used to publish. as someone who was born in the 90s and thus didn't live through it as a music fan there's still stuff for me to dig through here that i'm not too familiar with

there's also a ton of stuff here that falls outside what's more traditionally made up the canon. i think this albums list is pretty good at what it's trying to do, a fair bit better than usual for one of these

the MM dialogue is reminding me of a dude I’d interact with online in the late 90s who loved Modest Mouse and Mouse on Mars equally. I would guess he had opinions about Radiohead come Kid A time

I'm revisiting the Cranberries album; the production is like bathing directly in a pure stream of Early '90s!

I agree 's not the strongest album, but it has some jams; I forgot about this song "Sunday" ("...You mystify me, you mystify me...")

love the atmospheric songs on moon and antarctica. and also “interstate 8”, “broke”, “dramamine”.. mm did release a lot of unlistenable godawful crap though

The real best album of the 90s is probably Foxbase Alpha (US version with “kiss and make up” and the mix of “people get real” with strings)

funny when I was living with these dudes who were certified MM freaks I'd always say "hey guys I'm gonna throw on some Mouse" and play Mouse on Mars instead. eventually they grew to dig it.

this 90s albums list is really so much better than the 80s one from a few years ago

Both these lists seem fine. Some good choices, some boring stuff, some really bad shit. Aggregated best ofs are going to get more generic over time as distinct memories fade.

I don’t know what I’m missing but that Lauryn Hill album doesn’t do anything for me.

― ✖✖✖ (Moka),

Me neither but I'm through fighting consensus. It's a good enough album that needed to happen in 1998.

― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, September 28, 2022 5:55 PM

didn't we just duke it out over that one not too long ago? you had the defending position, you rascal.

(although not to rehash but absolutely no- it was not good enough. it was awful and bloated.🙂)

Agree:re Liz Phair reappraisal seeming a lot more pronounced of late. Possibly this is just a reflection of who my friends are/their friends are/etc but I feel like Exile in Guyville took a back seat for quite along time and now its stumbling back. I haven't heard it for maybe 7-8 years so this has reminded me to hear it again.

― you can see me from westbury white horse, Wednesday, September 28, 2022 10:37 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

put this record on for a spin a few weeks back and damn if i hadn't been humming melodies from it since. was pleased the album and song placed as high as it did.

"nashville" is still the best.

I can't believe no one's mentioned Insane Clown Posse in this thread.

Those lamenting the lack of Ween on p4k's list should check out Andrew Earles' book Gimme Indie Rock, which includes four Ween records among its list of 500 essential American indie albums from 1981-1996.

Of course I'm disinclined to take the author's choices as gospel given that there's only one (?!) Throwing Muses album (s/t). Overlooking House Tornado or The Real Ramona in favour of any Ween album is sacrilege, in my book...

Still no answer to my DMB question, apparently ILM hates popular music from the 90s when it suits

I jokingly asked why no DMB myself, TBH it's legitimately nostalgic for me and I feel good when I hear it. He actually seemed like he might have had his turn for critical reappraisal a few years ago, but didn't seem to fully happen.

Wrong type of pop. To be clear I have no love for DMB at all

there is plenty of popular music that's bad & some of it even made these lists

Gotta love how all three generations of pitchfork nineties lists agreed to snub the Red Hot Chili Peppers

am i wrong to think that there are several songs on guyville better than “fuck and run”?

No, you are correct, it’s just that F&R has been featured some places.

I’d rather listen to Ants Marching that Fantasy any day— now THAT makes me a bad fag

*than

"Fuck and Run" gets more media attention than, say, "Divorce Song" because it's more sexually frank.

Pavement could certainly be raggedy and loose, but Malkmus also had that arch, literary quality that I think gave them a bit more cultural cachet.

I don't think this is incorrect, but I also read this as Modest Mouse = community college vs Pavement = Ivy League, and viewed through that lens, we might have expected that history would favor Pavement.

For whatever it's worth, I prefer Brock as a lyricist

Wonder how close I'll Be There For You was to getting on the tracks list. If you're throwing in Celine, Hold On, Gin Blossoms, etc, it's totally in that ballpark. Hootie prob got a few votes as well.

I'm not super familiar with MM, but they seem morose while Pavement seems fun.

gin blossoms track is one of the great fake replacements songs not made by the goo goo dolls, it does not belong with that crew imo

“bands only influenced by the replacements breaking through to radio” is one of my favorite ‘90s phenoms

xxp yeah lots of MM music is dark & upsetting songs about addiction, sickness, death, etc, while Pavement have easygoing songs about haircuts, gold soundz, etc. I like MM plenty but Pavement are definitely a more "pleasant" listen in most cases

Westerburg wrote the first Goo Goo Dolls I heard on college radio.

Yeah the overall vibe too despite the subject matter - MM often bursting with intense nervous angst that you don't find with Pavement even when they're being wild.

I think an original p4k reader would be most surprised by the absence of Bonnie "Prince" Billy, the Dismemberment Plan, Low, Sunny Day Real Estate, and maybe Superchunk and Royal Trux.

Wrong type of pop

"Two Princes" inexplicably overlooked. Tbh I'd listen to "Don't Drink the Water" before a lot of these.

I made this 90s albums list in 2003; not sure what I'd list now but I'd stand by that top 4: 90s albums list I just put together today

did emergency & i not make the albums list? sheesh

xp I noticed an explosion of sincere love for "Hey Jealousy" since early 2000s -- a lot of it from ILM but also elsewhere.

xp My impression of Neutral Milk was starting as a small drop whose wave never ended. They were canonized pretty quickly in Spin's decade list 4-5 months before the 90s ended, kind of unexpectedly since they did not appear in their 1998 albums list only a few months prior. So i always thought of them as cultish with many cult members that just happen to be music writers.

Yeah I mean I said they were comparatively ignored in 98 in the sense of "compared to their latter acclaim" not "compared to my noise gigs of the same era". I don't really see what is dated about the album's strengths, though, and am not sure placing at #31 even indicates a huge decline.

Royal Trux

Sadly, they didn’t even make the ‘99 list… pretty crazy oversight, imo

Well I played a bit of their Music Battle game. Apparently, the Marshall Mathers LP is a 90s album.

It would be weird (to me) if Low end up a canonized 2010s band. And repeating myself but: Bonnie Prince Billy is on the songs list

Did "Slack Motherfucker" not make it?